Smart motorway rollout to be stopped?
Discussion
dhutch said:
Three minutes sounds like a very long time.
Assuming following traffic at a vehicle every ~3 seconds, which is generous in some scenarios (Given that "Smart" motorways tend to be the most congested parts of the network) that's 60 vehicles that have to not hit you; either by coming to a stop themselves (No thanks) or swerving into L2 / 3 - As above, given the congestion of these sections, that may not be a simple task.If we assume a moderate scenario, where you're about 1/2 way between gantries, you've got 3 minutes of traffic to clear you, then the traffic between you and the gantry behind before the red X / Move over arrows can be seen.
The other thing I think when passing emergency bays; They only have capacity for 1 car / vehicle (Would a fully loaded HGV Be able to stop in an emergency bay from full whack? Don't think so, especially given the skids that usually decorate the entrance to the emergency bay) - If someone's already in there, you're SOL for the next few miles..
TwistingMyMelon said:
On the other side of the coin on my last breakdown a smart motorway would have helped .
Cruising along @ 85 in 3rd outside lane , my car cut out and had no power and was coasting down to 0 with no power steering and limited brake assist . Car behind immediately wanted to ram me off the road as I was slightly slowing them down, I couldn't change lanes as traffic was too heavy and fast and wouldn't let me . I coasted to a stop in the outside lane . Thankfully I was on my own so I jumped out , jumped the barrier and stood well back .
My car then caused carnage for an hour until the rac turned up . If that was a smart motorway they would have closed off both lanes making it easier and safer
Somehow I doubt it! Cruising along @ 85 in 3rd outside lane , my car cut out and had no power and was coasting down to 0 with no power steering and limited brake assist . Car behind immediately wanted to ram me off the road as I was slightly slowing them down, I couldn't change lanes as traffic was too heavy and fast and wouldn't let me . I coasted to a stop in the outside lane . Thankfully I was on my own so I jumped out , jumped the barrier and stood well back .
My car then caused carnage for an hour until the rac turned up . If that was a smart motorway they would have closed off both lanes making it easier and safer
If that was a "Smart" motorway they wouldn't have done anything until your car was "a blockage in at least 2 lanes" - the management of them is pitiful IME of the M3 and M25!
JimSuperSix said:
Pothole said:
JimSuperSix said:
I suspect the logic is that if her husband was killed on a road that DID have a hard shoulder, those people driving and working on motorways without one are in even more danger.
So emotive, unresearched extrapolation? OKBreakingBad said:
“Smart” motorways are anything but smart - fundamentally flawed, dangerous and unfit for purpose from the day the normal motorway is closed, the delays and accidents are horrendous and when the works are finished, you are left with a slower moving and more dangerous driving environment.
For example, I use the M20 most working days and have done so for over 9 years. Up until recently it has generally flowed pretty well in both directions, even in peak hours - although there are sections which can become congested, traffic would normally slow down but rarely come to a full halt.
A few months ago, they started to convert a large section to “smart” and the traffic jams are a nightmare and the rate of accidents is astronomical, even though there is a 50mph limit (almost impossible to achieve such speeds, incidentally). Joining or leaving the motorway is also often next to impossible due to the streams of slow moving traffic in all lanes travelling close together and at very similar speeds.
On several occasions, emergency service vehicles with blue lights on have been stuck in the jams, unable to get through and without the hard shoulder to use, they sit there with the rest of us.
Progress has been woefully slow. I often drive for miles and miles without seeing anyone working on the “roadworks” so we have months more of the status quo to look forward to.
This would be (marginally) more acceptable if, at the end of all the hassle, there was some improvement but no, we are then stuck with a “variable speed limit” motorway which switches randomly from 60 to 50 to 40 and back again for no apparent reason than, it seems, to catch you out for speeding; no hard shoulder, should you be unfortunate enough to break down and nowhere for the emergency services to utilise when the inevitable accidents happen.
What utter moron thought this was a good idea? At least somebody is questioning the roll-out of more...
(Copy & paste from the other thread)
Hang on, you're using the M20 as an example of how smart motorways are wrong......?For example, I use the M20 most working days and have done so for over 9 years. Up until recently it has generally flowed pretty well in both directions, even in peak hours - although there are sections which can become congested, traffic would normally slow down but rarely come to a full halt.
A few months ago, they started to convert a large section to “smart” and the traffic jams are a nightmare and the rate of accidents is astronomical, even though there is a 50mph limit (almost impossible to achieve such speeds, incidentally). Joining or leaving the motorway is also often next to impossible due to the streams of slow moving traffic in all lanes travelling close together and at very similar speeds.
On several occasions, emergency service vehicles with blue lights on have been stuck in the jams, unable to get through and without the hard shoulder to use, they sit there with the rest of us.
Progress has been woefully slow. I often drive for miles and miles without seeing anyone working on the “roadworks” so we have months more of the status quo to look forward to.
This would be (marginally) more acceptable if, at the end of all the hassle, there was some improvement but no, we are then stuck with a “variable speed limit” motorway which switches randomly from 60 to 50 to 40 and back again for no apparent reason than, it seems, to catch you out for speeding; no hard shoulder, should you be unfortunate enough to break down and nowhere for the emergency services to utilise when the inevitable accidents happen.
What utter moron thought this was a good idea? At least somebody is questioning the roll-out of more...
(Copy & paste from the other thread)
But then point out that it's the roadworks whilst it's in the process of being made a smart motorway?
oyster said:
More unresearched extrapolation.
So what can you offer to refute it then? Who decided what was acceptable in terms of fatalities and/or serious injuries in the cost benefit analysis comparing a "Smart" motorway with building another lane?
Who measured that?
Who monitored/verified the measurement?
Or do we have more unresearched extrapolation?
You do wonder on the mentality that decides to implement massive change where there is already a massive problem on the daily; making M4 smart from junctions 12 to 3?! Work began in earnest about 4 months ago - even with the current hard shoulder that stretch is never 'clear and calm'!!
Unfortunately I reckon the box is already open there though; and the lid's firmly hidden.....
Unfortunately I reckon the box is already open there though; and the lid's firmly hidden.....
It's the type of accident that matters too. A motorbiker who chucks themselves into the back of a truck on the M40 at 100mph is perceived by the public as being different from an innocent family whose Scenic burst into flames in lane 1 of the M1 where there was no hard shoulder. Although smart motorways may not have higher fatality rates, the perception is that those fatalities they do have are innocent parties.
paintman said:
Pothole said:
JimSuperSix said:
It's common sense really - if you have no assigned place for broken vehicles to stop , the situation is going to be much more dangerous than when you do, and people get killed even when there's a proper refuge area.
Possibly, except there's far more actively monitored CCTV coverage on ALR sections and overhead signage to warn other vehicles/close lanes/impose speed restrictions (target is to do this within 3 minutes) which must (surely, common sense would tell us) mitigate some risk. At the risk of being boring, MORE RESEARCH NEEDED.Motorways are sufficiently dangerous as is without additional f
kwittery. I'm ex-plod & motorway trained.I've never considered this 'smart motorway' nonsense a good idea.
FWIW a neighbour's oldest son was killed a few months ago when the car he was in broke down on the M6 which at the time was in 'Smart motorway' mode with 4 live lanes. They'd managed to get it to what would normally have been the hard shoulder before it stopped but no time to get out before it was hit. AIUI 3 lorries managed to swerve round it but the 4th went into the offside back of it & as he was in the offside back of the car that was it. Driver of the car seriously injured but survived, both nearside passengers injured but not seriously.
Came back from Worcestershire on the M6 this evening. Dark. Heavy rain. Visibility poor due to spray. Heavy traffic. 'Smart' motorway in operation & 60 limit. Anyone breaking down wouldn't have had a snowflake in hell's chance. Lunacy.
Edited by paintman on Sunday 16th December 20:03
And a smart motorway is only as smart as the human being operating it.......which is problem number one.
I now need more than the fingers on one hand to count the times I've had an 'oh f
k' moment when seeing serving cars to see a car stopped on inside lane, with no prior red cross on gantry only to find the red cross and speed limits on the next gantry AFTER the incident and for miles afterwards. So, clearly each time the numbnuts camera operators have activated the warnings in the wrong direction to the traffic flow......
ive Always thought the loss of the hard shoulder is lunacy but was reminded just how stupid it was when I saw an rac man trying to tow a broken down car out of a refuge area from standstill into a live lane. It’s lunacy he didn’t stand a chance.
They’d put the message on the gantry but no one seemed to move to let him out.
They’d put the message on the gantry but no one seemed to move to let him out.
Been on the M60 in lane 1 and had a stationary broken down van in the lane, no red X, just a stranded vehicle on a fast flowing motorway. It's a frightening experience seeing others swerving out of the way at 70MPH. With a shoulder that van would have been off the carriageway. Hard shoulder running is a idea that probably seems great to those who place theory above practicality and reality, and they have no business dealing with matters of life.
aeropilot said:
And a smart motorway is only as smart as the human being operating it.......which is problem number one.
I now need more than the fingers on one hand to count the times I've had an 'oh f
k' moment when seeing serving cars to see a car stopped on inside lane, with no prior red cross on gantry only to find the red cross and speed limits on the next gantry AFTER the incident and for miles afterwards. So, clearly each time the numbnuts camera operators have activated the warnings in the wrong direction to the traffic flow......The section of M62 around Bradford seems to suffer a lot of issues - i've driven it a few times recently late at night when the motorway is virtually empty, yet the gantries around Hartshead Moor services are showing 40mph, despite the road being clear. The problem is in these situations that you don't know if the speed cameras are active or not. Some drivers slow to 40mph, but often the HGV's carry on at 60mph which gets a bit hairy if they run out of overtaking lanes as they don't like being slowed down.
When they did the computer simulations for it, I bet it worked spot on. All the cars moved over when the red xs appeared, they stuck to the speed limits etc.
But humans are tts. They’ll ignore the red x, think the gantry signs were put on too early so ignore it. Have been dicking about with their phone /radio / stopping the kids arguing in the back and missed the sign.
But humans are t
ts. They’ll ignore the red x, think the gantry signs were put on too early so ignore it. Have been dicking about with their phone /radio / stopping the kids arguing in the back and missed the sign. Schmoopy said:
ive Always thought the loss of the hard shoulder is lunacy but was reminded just how stupid it was when I saw an rac man trying to tow a broken down car out of a refuge area from standstill into a live lane. It’s lunacy he didn’t stand a chance.
They’d put the message on the gantry but no one seemed to move to let him out.
A message or a red X? Let’s hope they clocked all those cars passing under a red X.They’d put the message on the gantry but no one seemed to move to let him out.
Each time I drive along a smart motorway, it's potluck trying to workout how your journey's going to be buggered up.
Will it be slowing down from 70 to 50 to 40 to 50 for absolutely no discernible reason?
Will it be a truck tailgating you at 55 under a 50 gantry?
Will it be two lanes closed at rush-hour to retrieve a truck with a flat tyre who's stuck in the inside lane, because the lack of a hard shoulder means there's nowhere for him to go?
To top it off, you put up with years of 50mph average speed checks whilst the work is done, when the work itself seems to consist of erecting screens that display outdated information, gantry's with speed cameras on and burning off the lane marking for the hard shoulder.
If anyone at all thinks traffic in the NW is going to be improved by the smart motorway, they probably want sectioning. It's an absolute farce.
Will it be slowing down from 70 to 50 to 40 to 50 for absolutely no discernible reason?
Will it be a truck tailgating you at 55 under a 50 gantry?
Will it be two lanes closed at rush-hour to retrieve a truck with a flat tyre who's stuck in the inside lane, because the lack of a hard shoulder means there's nowhere for him to go?
To top it off, you put up with years of 50mph average speed checks whilst the work is done, when the work itself seems to consist of erecting screens that display outdated information, gantry's with speed cameras on and burning off the lane marking for the hard shoulder.
If anyone at all thinks traffic in the NW is going to be improved by the smart motorway, they probably want sectioning. It's an absolute farce.
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