Smart motorway rollout to be stopped?
Discussion
Trevor555 said:
dhutch said:
It's a cost effective fix to an increasing level of traffic, but if it starts costing lives that's not good.
Daniel
Yes, and I'd hazzard a guess that the people who dreamed it up, and signed it off, sit in an office all day.Daniel
Possibly that big office next to the Thames.
Pica-Pica said:
Schmoopy said:
ive Always thought the loss of the hard shoulder is lunacy but was reminded just how stupid it was when I saw an rac man trying to tow a broken down car out of a refuge area from standstill into a live lane. It’s lunacy he didn’t stand a chance.
They’d put the message on the gantry but no one seemed to move to let him out.
A message or a red X? Let’s hope they clocked all those cars passing under a red X.They’d put the message on the gantry but no one seemed to move to let him out.
Haltamer said:
Assuming following traffic at a vehicle every ~3 seconds, which is generous in some scenarios (Given that "Smart" motorways tend to be the most congested parts of the network) that's 60 vehicles that have to not hit you; either by coming to a stop themselves (No thanks) or swerving into L2 / 3 - As above, given the congestion of these sections, that may not be a simple task.
This is what I mean. Anyone who wants to test it, come a stop on lane one, at rush hour, and count to 60 slowly three times. If you make it without whiplash or worse i recon your lucky.Mate of mine had clutch failure on the motorway, coasted into the hard shoulder, got out fine only shaking a bit. Within five minutes a HGV had taken the car out, and would have killed anyone in it. Thats on a hard shoulder, where he could get right over, open the door, and get out, quickly. If a hard shoulder isnt safe how safe it, this not quite dusk on a dry day. Lane one in the rain, forget it.
I'm 30yo and fairly fit and I would be out door and over the central reservation before you can say 'TRUCK!' but that doesnt account for older folk, families, whatever.
jamei303 said:
It's the type of accident that matters too. A motorbiker who chucks themselves into the back of a truck on the M40 at 100mph is perceived by the public as being different from an innocent family whose Scenic burst into flames in lane 1 of the M1 where there was no hard shoulder. Although smart motorways may not have higher fatality rates, the perception is that those fatalities they do have are innocent parties.
There is some of this, even if the biker is doing 70 and the lorry is doing something daft. Or the family as ignored the garages advice on a repair, and stopped in the car because it raining rather than getting out and going up the bank to safety.aeropilot said:
And a smart motorway is only as smart as the human being operating it.......which is problem number one.
I now need more than the fingers on one hand to count the times I've had an 'oh f
k' moment when seeing serving cars to see a car stopped on inside lane, with no prior red cross on gantry only to find the red cross and speed limits on the next gantry AFTER the incident and for miles afterwards. So, clearly each time the numbnuts camera operators have activated the warnings in the wrong direction to the traffic flow......
I now need more than the fingers on one hand to count the times I've had an 'oh f
k' moment when seeing serving cars to see a car stopped on inside lane, with no prior red cross on gantry only to find the red cross and speed limits on the next gantry AFTER the incident and for miles afterwards. So, clearly each time the numbnuts camera operators have activated the warnings in the wrong direction to the traffic flow......IanCress said:
I saw something similar happen on the M42. Gantries showing a red X on the inside lane but the lane was empty. Next gantry shows inside lane as open again, but 200 yards further on there's a transit having a tyre changed. They set the red X on the wrong section.
The section of M62 around Bradford seems to suffer a lot of issues - i've driven it a few times recently late at night when the motorway is virtually empty, yet the gantries around Hartshead Moor services are showing 40mph, despite the road being clear. The problem is in these situations that you don't know if the speed cameras are active or not. Some drivers slow to 40mph, but often the HGV's carry on at 60mph which gets a bit hairy if they run out of overtaking lanes as they don't like being slowed down.
Its so simple, and so important, but yet there have been more than enough stories of the wrong section behing highlighted there is clearly a systematic issue with the way its monitored, controlled, and audited. These red 'x' signs are a not a nice to have, on an all lanes running motorway it life and death signage.The section of M62 around Bradford seems to suffer a lot of issues - i've driven it a few times recently late at night when the motorway is virtually empty, yet the gantries around Hartshead Moor services are showing 40mph, despite the road being clear. The problem is in these situations that you don't know if the speed cameras are active or not. Some drivers slow to 40mph, but often the HGV's carry on at 60mph which gets a bit hairy if they run out of overtaking lanes as they don't like being slowed down.
60mph trucks hitting 40mph traffic at night sounds messy. Again, its like its all chilled and doesnt matter, it does matter, your experimenting with real peoples lives!
Daniel
I've generally been in favour of smart motorways having used the M42 stretch for many years without incident.
However, on Saturday, had to drive M40 North from Oxford to Birmingham to see my folks, wife's car, she always fills it up before we depart, I never bother to check the fuel because she always does it. Only this time she a) forgot and b) forgot to tell me. We pootle off to Brum, instead of being a Powerfully Built Company Director type dominating the outside lane I always trundle up the inside lane at no more than 70mph in our Honda mumtruck, chatting away about festive family ste with our toddler in the back.
10 miles south of Banbury I notice the fuel light on. I've never actually seen it on in this car in 6 years of ownership because we always keep it topped up.
Worst thing is that, because of said chatting, I haven't got a clue when that light came on and how much fuel I've got left.
My bad - I drop PH points because I should obviously have been paying attention to my instruments at all times, but hey, I've been working long hours, am stressed and just enjoying some family time on the journey. I don't have a scooby as to whether I'm running on vapour or not and its a looooong way to Warwick Services.
Cursing myself for not paying more attention I pondered what might happen if it were a smart motorway. Never been so relieved to have the safety net of the hard shoulder there as I pootled it back to 60mph and waited for it to conk.
Fortunately we made it to Banbury on vapour, somewhat changing my views of smart motorways.
However, on Saturday, had to drive M40 North from Oxford to Birmingham to see my folks, wife's car, she always fills it up before we depart, I never bother to check the fuel because she always does it. Only this time she a) forgot and b) forgot to tell me. We pootle off to Brum, instead of being a Powerfully Built Company Director type dominating the outside lane I always trundle up the inside lane at no more than 70mph in our Honda mumtruck, chatting away about festive family s
te with our toddler in the back. 10 miles south of Banbury I notice the fuel light on. I've never actually seen it on in this car in 6 years of ownership because we always keep it topped up.
Worst thing is that, because of said chatting, I haven't got a clue when that light came on and how much fuel I've got left.
My bad - I drop PH points because I should obviously have been paying attention to my instruments at all times, but hey, I've been working long hours, am stressed and just enjoying some family time on the journey. I don't have a scooby as to whether I'm running on vapour or not and its a looooong way to Warwick Services.
Cursing myself for not paying more attention I pondered what might happen if it were a smart motorway. Never been so relieved to have the safety net of the hard shoulder there as I pootled it back to 60mph and waited for it to conk.
Fortunately we made it to Banbury on vapour, somewhat changing my views of smart motorways.
Poshbury said:
Trevor555 said:
dhutch said:
It's a cost effective fix to an increasing level of traffic, but if it starts costing lives that's not good.
Daniel
Yes, and I'd hazzard a guess that the people who dreamed it up, and signed it off, sit in an office all day.Daniel
Possibly that big office next to the Thames.
Maybe the gantries, and variable speed limits save a few which may offset the ones lost in lane one with no hard shoulder?
I'm ok with variable speed limits if implemented correctly.
Anyone who thinks they should be able to carry on at 70mph when the gantry says 50mph should really take the bus.
oyster said:
BreakingBad said:
“Smart” motorways are anything but smart - fundamentally flawed, dangerous and unfit for purpose from the day the normal motorway is closed, the delays and accidents are horrendous and when the works are finished, you are left with a slower moving and more dangerous driving environment.
For example, I use the M20 most working days and have done so for over 9 years. Up until recently it has generally flowed pretty well in both directions, even in peak hours - although there are sections which can become congested, traffic would normally slow down but rarely come to a full halt.
A few months ago, they started to convert a large section to “smart” and the traffic jams are a nightmare and the rate of accidents is astronomical, even though there is a 50mph limit (almost impossible to achieve such speeds, incidentally). Joining or leaving the motorway is also often next to impossible due to the streams of slow moving traffic in all lanes travelling close together and at very similar speeds.
On several occasions, emergency service vehicles with blue lights on have been stuck in the jams, unable to get through and without the hard shoulder to use, they sit there with the rest of us.
Progress has been woefully slow. I often drive for miles and miles without seeing anyone working on the “roadworks” so we have months more of the status quo to look forward to.
This would be (marginally) more acceptable if, at the end of all the hassle, there was some improvement but no, we are then stuck with a “variable speed limit” motorway which switches randomly from 60 to 50 to 40 and back again for no apparent reason than, it seems, to catch you out for speeding; no hard shoulder, should you be unfortunate enough to break down and nowhere for the emergency services to utilise when the inevitable accidents happen.
What utter moron thought this was a good idea? At least somebody is questioning the roll-out of more...
(Copy & paste from the other thread)
Hang on, you're using the M20 as an example of how smart motorways are wrong......?For example, I use the M20 most working days and have done so for over 9 years. Up until recently it has generally flowed pretty well in both directions, even in peak hours - although there are sections which can become congested, traffic would normally slow down but rarely come to a full halt.
A few months ago, they started to convert a large section to “smart” and the traffic jams are a nightmare and the rate of accidents is astronomical, even though there is a 50mph limit (almost impossible to achieve such speeds, incidentally). Joining or leaving the motorway is also often next to impossible due to the streams of slow moving traffic in all lanes travelling close together and at very similar speeds.
On several occasions, emergency service vehicles with blue lights on have been stuck in the jams, unable to get through and without the hard shoulder to use, they sit there with the rest of us.
Progress has been woefully slow. I often drive for miles and miles without seeing anyone working on the “roadworks” so we have months more of the status quo to look forward to.
This would be (marginally) more acceptable if, at the end of all the hassle, there was some improvement but no, we are then stuck with a “variable speed limit” motorway which switches randomly from 60 to 50 to 40 and back again for no apparent reason than, it seems, to catch you out for speeding; no hard shoulder, should you be unfortunate enough to break down and nowhere for the emergency services to utilise when the inevitable accidents happen.
What utter moron thought this was a good idea? At least somebody is questioning the roll-out of more...
(Copy & paste from the other thread)
But then point out that it's the roadworks whilst it's in the process of being made a smart motorway?
Pica-Pica said:
JimSuperSix said:
Pothole said:
JimSuperSix said:
I suspect the logic is that if her husband was killed on a road that DID have a hard shoulder, those people driving and working on motorways without one are in even more danger.
So emotive, unresearched extrapolation? OK"Why do motorways have a hard shoulder?
When the motorway network was introduced across the UK back in the 1960s, hard shoulders were provided along all routes for two key reasons.
Firstly, the hard shoulder acts as a refuge for any broken-down vehicles safely away from the flow of traffic. Secondly, the hard shoulder doubles as an emergency lane, allowing emergency vehicles to bypass traffic and get to the scene of an accident."
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driving-advice/...
IanCress said:
The problem is in these situations that you don't know if the speed cameras are active or not. Some drivers slow to 40mph, but often the HGV's carry on at 60mph which gets a bit hairy if they run out of overtaking lanes as they don't like being slowed down.
This ^^^. On the M1 Saturday I slowed down for the indicated speed of 40... got to 46 before it got quite uncomfortable with cars and HGV's shooting by 
Let's hope that the cameras weren't too sensitive. As an aside it did look like quite a serious accident.
JimSuperSix said:
Yes it is, that's exactly what it is there for, to provide a refuge area for broken down vehicles to get them clear of the main lanes, or to provide an extra lane for emergency services.
"Why do motorways have a hard shoulder?
When the motorway network was introduced across the UK back in the 1960s, hard shoulders were provided along all routes for two key reasons.
Firstly, the hard shoulder acts as a refuge for any broken-down vehicles safely away from the flow of traffic. Secondly, the hard shoulder doubles as an emergency lane, allowing emergency vehicles to bypass traffic and get to the scene of an accident."
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driving-advice/...
Thank you Jim for posting that."Why do motorways have a hard shoulder?
When the motorway network was introduced across the UK back in the 1960s, hard shoulders were provided along all routes for two key reasons.
Firstly, the hard shoulder acts as a refuge for any broken-down vehicles safely away from the flow of traffic. Secondly, the hard shoulder doubles as an emergency lane, allowing emergency vehicles to bypass traffic and get to the scene of an accident."
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driving-advice/...
Fast forward to 2018 and there's a need to add extra lanes to motorways to cope.
So our government thought to do away with our hard shoulder to save some cash.
Our government should be looking 50 years into the future, if they really want to reduce car numbers they should de privatize public transport, make it better and a whole lot cheaper.
These so called smart motorways are ALL about money.
1. Add the extra lane required by scrapping the hard shoulder, cash saved.
2 .It's lining up for toll charging, future cash.
3. More speed cameras, more revenue, but in my opinion does make the road a little safer.
Personally I don't have a problem with cameras or future tolls, but the scrapping of the hard shoulder is lunacy, and a complete uncaring aptitude towards our safety.
Our politicians probably rarely break down, I'm sure they have the luxury of driving around in near new cars.
Tom_Spotley_When said:
Each time I drive along a smart motorway, it's potluck trying to workout how your journey's going to be buggered up.
Will it be slowing down from 70 to 50 to 40 to 50 for absolutely no discernible reason?
Will it be a truck tailgating you at 55 under a 50 gantry?
Will it be two lanes closed at rush-hour to retrieve a truck with a flat tyre who's stuck in the inside lane, because the lack of a hard shoulder means there's nowhere for him to go?
To top it off, you put up with years of 50mph average speed checks whilst the work is done, when the work itself seems to consist of erecting screens that display outdated information, gantry's with speed cameras on and burning off the lane marking for the hard shoulder.
If anyone at all thinks traffic in the NW is going to be improved by the smart motorway, they probably want sectioning. It's an absolute farce.
You forget about all the people who when they see 4 x lanes forget/choose to ignore or are ignorant of any kind of lane discipline. Will it be slowing down from 70 to 50 to 40 to 50 for absolutely no discernible reason?
Will it be a truck tailgating you at 55 under a 50 gantry?
Will it be two lanes closed at rush-hour to retrieve a truck with a flat tyre who's stuck in the inside lane, because the lack of a hard shoulder means there's nowhere for him to go?
To top it off, you put up with years of 50mph average speed checks whilst the work is done, when the work itself seems to consist of erecting screens that display outdated information, gantry's with speed cameras on and burning off the lane marking for the hard shoulder.
If anyone at all thinks traffic in the NW is going to be improved by the smart motorway, they probably want sectioning. It's an absolute farce.
BreakingBad said:
oyster said:
BreakingBad said:
“Smart” motorways are anything but smart - fundamentally flawed, dangerous and unfit for purpose from the day the normal motorway is closed, the delays and accidents are horrendous and when the works are finished, you are left with a slower moving and more dangerous driving environment.
For example, I use the M20 most working days and have done so for over 9 years. Up until recently it has generally flowed pretty well in both directions, even in peak hours - although there are sections which can become congested, traffic would normally slow down but rarely come to a full halt.
A few months ago, they started to convert a large section to “smart” and the traffic jams are a nightmare and the rate of accidents is astronomical, even though there is a 50mph limit (almost impossible to achieve such speeds, incidentally). Joining or leaving the motorway is also often next to impossible due to the streams of slow moving traffic in all lanes travelling close together and at very similar speeds.
On several occasions, emergency service vehicles with blue lights on have been stuck in the jams, unable to get through and without the hard shoulder to use, they sit there with the rest of us.
Progress has been woefully slow. I often drive for miles and miles without seeing anyone working on the “roadworks” so we have months more of the status quo to look forward to.
This would be (marginally) more acceptable if, at the end of all the hassle, there was some improvement but no, we are then stuck with a “variable speed limit” motorway which switches randomly from 60 to 50 to 40 and back again for no apparent reason than, it seems, to catch you out for speeding; no hard shoulder, should you be unfortunate enough to break down and nowhere for the emergency services to utilise when the inevitable accidents happen.
What utter moron thought this was a good idea? At least somebody is questioning the roll-out of more...
(Copy & paste from the other thread)
Hang on, you're using the M20 as an example of how smart motorways are wrong......?For example, I use the M20 most working days and have done so for over 9 years. Up until recently it has generally flowed pretty well in both directions, even in peak hours - although there are sections which can become congested, traffic would normally slow down but rarely come to a full halt.
A few months ago, they started to convert a large section to “smart” and the traffic jams are a nightmare and the rate of accidents is astronomical, even though there is a 50mph limit (almost impossible to achieve such speeds, incidentally). Joining or leaving the motorway is also often next to impossible due to the streams of slow moving traffic in all lanes travelling close together and at very similar speeds.
On several occasions, emergency service vehicles with blue lights on have been stuck in the jams, unable to get through and without the hard shoulder to use, they sit there with the rest of us.
Progress has been woefully slow. I often drive for miles and miles without seeing anyone working on the “roadworks” so we have months more of the status quo to look forward to.
This would be (marginally) more acceptable if, at the end of all the hassle, there was some improvement but no, we are then stuck with a “variable speed limit” motorway which switches randomly from 60 to 50 to 40 and back again for no apparent reason than, it seems, to catch you out for speeding; no hard shoulder, should you be unfortunate enough to break down and nowhere for the emergency services to utilise when the inevitable accidents happen.
What utter moron thought this was a good idea? At least somebody is questioning the roll-out of more...
(Copy & paste from the other thread)
But then point out that it's the roadworks whilst it's in the process of being made a smart motorway?
R4PID said:
Tom_Spotley_When said:
Each time I drive along a smart motorway, it's potluck trying to workout how your journey's going to be buggered up.
Will it be slowing down from 70 to 50 to 40 to 50 for absolutely no discernible reason?
Will it be a truck tailgating you at 55 under a 50 gantry?
Will it be two lanes closed at rush-hour to retrieve a truck with a flat tyre who's stuck in the inside lane, because the lack of a hard shoulder means there's nowhere for him to go?
To top it off, you put up with years of 50mph average speed checks whilst the work is done, when the work itself seems to consist of erecting screens that display outdated information, gantry's with speed cameras on and burning off the lane marking for the hard shoulder.
If anyone at all thinks traffic in the NW is going to be improved by the smart motorway, they probably want sectioning. It's an absolute farce.
You forget about all the people who when they see 4 x lanes forget/choose to ignore or are ignorant of any kind of lane discipline. Will it be slowing down from 70 to 50 to 40 to 50 for absolutely no discernible reason?
Will it be a truck tailgating you at 55 under a 50 gantry?
Will it be two lanes closed at rush-hour to retrieve a truck with a flat tyre who's stuck in the inside lane, because the lack of a hard shoulder means there's nowhere for him to go?
To top it off, you put up with years of 50mph average speed checks whilst the work is done, when the work itself seems to consist of erecting screens that display outdated information, gantry's with speed cameras on and burning off the lane marking for the hard shoulder.
If anyone at all thinks traffic in the NW is going to be improved by the smart motorway, they probably want sectioning. It's an absolute farce.
I wonder how many people complaining have actually experienced the difference between busy motorways with and without variable speed limit. If you ever drove the M25 in peak time in the 90s or early 00s you must have experienced the regular sudden traffic jams, where 1 minute your in an 70+mph queue of traffic, which with basically no warning turns into a 0 mph queue, so you were having to come to a complete stop in a live lane with 70+mph traffic behind, several times in a journey, and there were plenty of people doing this 2+ times a day, every day for basically years. The idea that oh no that might happen to you in the 1 in >1000 trips where you break down is an unacceptable risk is pathetic.
Perhaps they need to build you an extra lane with barriers on either side covered in cotton wool where you can be towed along at 15 mph by a solar powered mechanical donkey, while the rest of us carry on and get to fking work so we can get on with being less productive than our European neighbours.
Perhaps they need to build you an extra lane with barriers on either side covered in cotton wool where you can be towed along at 15 mph by a solar powered mechanical donkey, while the rest of us carry on and get to f
king work so we can get on with being less productive than our European neighbours. ging84 said:
I wonder how many people complaining have actually experienced the difference between busy motorways with and without variable speed limit.
The problem here is people are confusing several things. All lane running/no hard shoulder and managed motorways/variable speed limits.You can have one without the other.
It appears that variable speed limits *can* work if applied properly and it can even out the flow.
All lane running is dim.
I once sat in a queue on the 'new' bit of M6 which has all lane running. Four lanes of solid traffic all stationary. In the distance in front a burning car. In the distance behind a couple of fire tenders. (Some) people parted the lanes to let them through but it must have taken 20 minutes to get there. Fortunately everyone was out of the car - but could have been so different.
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
Trevor555 said:
3. More speed cameras, more revenue, but in my opinion does make the road a little safer.
I can't see anything safe about something which makes people slam their brakes on at Motorway speeds. If they are making people slam their brakes on then they need to re evaluate their bad driving.
Wills2 said:
I agree with your post, I have the same experience on the smart section of the M62 between Leeds and Bradford, it was an utter nightmare during construction, crashes everyday and it hasn't changed anything since it's been finished, the low speed limits just serve to bunch all the traffic together astern and abreast so you sit there inches from the wheels of a 40 tonne lorry with a van up your backside with no where to go should something happen, they are both useless and dangerous.
On the contrary! I use that section between 28 and 26 nearly every day and much as I don't like to admit it, since the ALR was introduced it has reduced my journey times considerably, IF the ALR is actually running. Before it became active it could easily take 30-40 mins any time between 3pm and 6.30pm to do J28 to J26. If ALR is active it takes 15 mins by staying on the HS (and via J27 slip ramps).I don't know what's happened on the eastbound side though. It used to run much the same but this past couple of weeks it's been snarled up to f
k trying to get on at J26 whereas usually it keeps chugging along at a steady pace. 
I actually question why they can't make J26-27 permanent ALR rather than only activiting it when they remember/can be arsed.
What I don't like is how 26 to 27 seems to be permanently set to either 50 or 60 even in quiet periods.
JimSuperSix said:
Pica-Pica said:
JimSuperSix said:
Pothole said:
JimSuperSix said:
I suspect the logic is that if her husband was killed on a road that DID have a hard shoulder, those people driving and working on motorways without one are in even more danger.
So emotive, unresearched extrapolation? OK"Why do motorways have a hard shoulder?
When the motorway network was introduced across the UK back in the 1960s, hard shoulders were provided along all routes for two key reasons.
Firstly, the hard shoulder acts as a refuge for any broken-down vehicles safely away from the flow of traffic. Secondly, the hard shoulder doubles as an emergency lane, allowing emergency vehicles to bypass traffic and get to the scene of an accident."
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driving-advice/...
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driving-advice/...
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff