RE: BMW M2 Competition vs. Porsche Cayman GT4
Discussion
E65Ross said:
Nice trolling post that. I've driven a 560bhp car and I'm still alive, bizarrely!
he has a point though. most people i know (and witness on the road) with that power rely on the nannies to keep them straight.That's why TVRs are proper fun, often < 300hp, but it's just you and the unchecked power/torque.
Proper mans car. i want one when i grow up.
I agree with Don as modern cars have long gearing - my humble old Boxster reaches a ton in 3rd - so you can't work it through the gears on a B road like a smaller engined car.
That's where an 80's hot hatch/MR2/MX5 is more relevant as you can drive the nuts of it and be on the limit having more fun. Obviously NCAP wise if you crash it or have a head on collision with a moth then you will die.
If I had a GT4 I would just use it for track days or road trips.
That's where an 80's hot hatch/MR2/MX5 is more relevant as you can drive the nuts of it and be on the limit having more fun. Obviously NCAP wise if you crash it or have a head on collision with a moth then you will die.
If I had a GT4 I would just use it for track days or road trips.
Edited by wardpaa on Wednesday 26th December 16:17
SidewaysSi said:
I don't think it is pure speed that is necessarily the issue with the really quick stuff but that they need to operate deep into 3 figures which can compromise their ability to engage and excite on road in the UK where many (of us) do the majority of our driving. Added to modern legislation and manufacturers chasing lap times and speed, can result in cars that are really quite boring.
Some of the problems I find (though not to be purely levelled at faster stuff):
- poor (steering) feel
- too much grip
- a chassis that is "too capable" on road
- too tall gear ratios
- poor throttle response
- too eager DSC systems, some of which can't be turned off
- a feeling of quite a synthetic driving experience
These can affect all cars of course, but it becomes very frustrating when so called (expensive) "driver's cars" get saddled with these foibles.
Of course these may not be issues to many people and as less and less people experience older cars, they increasingly become things that even enthusiasts are not bothered about.
3 wise kings at this time of year rolled into one post on PH. Excellent summary.Some of the problems I find (though not to be purely levelled at faster stuff):
- poor (steering) feel
- too much grip
- a chassis that is "too capable" on road
- too tall gear ratios
- poor throttle response
- too eager DSC systems, some of which can't be turned off
- a feeling of quite a synthetic driving experience
These can affect all cars of course, but it becomes very frustrating when so called (expensive) "driver's cars" get saddled with these foibles.
Of course these may not be issues to many people and as less and less people experience older cars, they increasingly become things that even enthusiasts are not bothered about.
The 4th Wise King would say
- if it ain't worth that much then you tend to spank it down a B road and don't really care if you turn it into scrap as not worth that much anyway.
That, and what sSidewaysSi] said.
As a corollary to this Schmee has taken delivery of a Ford Senna and a Mclaren GT this week and has so far
1. Driven the Senna 100m at Goodwood whilst thinking about Topaz paint protection being applied. Not to his GT but his underpants.
2. Driven the GT at Mclaren centre a total of 350m, but bypassing the lakes and without replicating that great scene from James Bond
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeBqf6bYZak
Notice had the Lotus dashboard goes up just like the Mclaren one to show a different screen. The one flipped in the Lotus amazingly counts down to how long before you get that lady passengers knickers off so gives it extra want factor.
Bless the good old days, such as this in a mighty Corolla https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYXeOijEdTU
You don't have to get a Corolla though no matter how good the new one looks after the Auris, you can instead just follow the Gandolf rules of middle England driving.
- Get a cheap car.
- O/S map of B roads.
-Spank it
-Have phone on speed dial ( early 2000's Nokia) to make up excuses when you will turn up at 3am with the car on the back of an AA lowloader looking like a tincan and the AA man having seen it all before.
-Lie that you will never do it again to your fiancee and then lie similarily to your wife of 20 years in 20 years time.
Given that you will not do all that, and finally cutting to the chase, the GT4 seems like something to keep in the garage making money whilst the M2 seems like a car that you can mod easily (with that detuned M3/4 engine) and rip bits off and have a great time at trackdays. It's not a bargain as such but it does seem more to be a fantastic car for the owner to paint as he will and then the 2nd and 3rd owner to also love.
The ultimate theory of any great car is getting a pint pot of one than fitting a quart into it. Or more.
Onehp said:
I can see two types of fun, on the one extreme we have the extremely thrilling, exhilarating cars where one gets on the throttle and catches your breath, it flies down the road and you get out bewildered from the ride. All the while just scratching the surface of the full dynamic repertoire of the car. The other extreme is that car that fits the accomplished driver like a glove and is so low powered that one can basically drive it on the edge all the time, all the time giving massive feedback to the drivers satisfaction as he/she dissects a great road, getting into a flow. The engine is maybe not very powerfull, but it is pleasing in its use.
Or just s
tz and gigglez before you get the wallet out again ..... 
Brian Fallon said:
These are my two top "real world" (as in, plausibly affordable) sports cars. I am surprised that the reviewer found such a performance gap between them. I also note that GT4s with 5,000 miles on the clock are selling for £7k more than the price as new and with options. That has to make it one of the best cars on the market for holding (increasing, in fact) value.
The new 718 GT4 is due to be released in the new year. It looks like they're going to ditch the 4 pot turbo engines for another 911 NA 6. If they do then I expect the old GT4 prices to crash back down to typical depreciation levels as the new GT4 should be better in every way."the car (GT4) more agile as well as more confidence inspiring, traction improved because of the layout and yet the on-limit balance is almost as benign"
Anyone with experience of the GT4 have any further thoughts on its on limit handling? Matt seems to be saying the BMW is a bit easier to deal with; and this is apparently in the dry, what about a GT4 in the wet? Thinking a sorted front engine car would be safer at the limit on more challenging roads and conditions. thanks j
jl4069 said:
"the car (GT4) more agile as well as more confidence inspiring, traction improved because of the layout and yet the on-limit balance is almost as benign"
Anyone with experience of the GT4 have any further thoughts on its on limit handling? Matt seems to be saying the BMW is a bit easier to deal with; and this is apparently in the dry, what about a GT4 in the wet? Thinking a sorted front engine car would be safer at the limit on more challenging roads and conditions. thanks j
Normally I would find this to be the case; the lower moment of inertia tends to make mid-engined cars spiky at the limit, particularly in the wet. I certainly found my Lotuses not to suffer fools with a heavy right foot once the rear let go. However, the (‘regular’) M2 I owned I found difficult to control at the limit, with a rear axle that was happy to let go under all the torque and an engine that barely let me keep it in check. Conversely the GT4 is incredibly benign, and is happy to be danced and drifted along a wet road. Perhaps the Competition is a kinder car on an uneven road in the wet, but unless BMW has performed some kind of black magic, it’ll be OK for a front-engined car, while I think the GT4 is exceptional for a mid-engined one. Anyone with experience of the GT4 have any further thoughts on its on limit handling? Matt seems to be saying the BMW is a bit easier to deal with; and this is apparently in the dry, what about a GT4 in the wet? Thinking a sorted front engine car would be safer at the limit on more challenging roads and conditions. thanks j
Nimerino said:
jl4069 said:
"the car (GT4) more agile as well as more confidence inspiring, traction improved because of the layout and yet the on-limit balance is almost as benign"
Anyone with experience of the GT4 have any further thoughts on its on limit handling? Matt seems to be saying the BMW is a bit easier to deal with; and this is apparently in the dry, what about a GT4 in the wet? Thinking a sorted front engine car would be safer at the limit on more challenging roads and conditions. thanks j
Normally I would find this to be the case; the lower moment of inertia tends to make mid-engined cars spiky at the limit, particularly in the wet. I certainly found my Lotuses not to suffer fools with a heavy right foot once the rear let go. However, the (‘regular’) M2 I owned I found difficult to control at the limit, with a rear axle that was happy to let go under all the torque and an engine that barely let me keep it in check. Conversely the GT4 is incredibly benign, and is happy to be danced and drifted along a wet road. Perhaps the Competition is a kinder car on an uneven road in the wet, but unless BMW has performed some kind of black magic, it’ll be OK for a front-engined car, while I think the GT4 is exceptional for a mid-engined one. Anyone with experience of the GT4 have any further thoughts on its on limit handling? Matt seems to be saying the BMW is a bit easier to deal with; and this is apparently in the dry, what about a GT4 in the wet? Thinking a sorted front engine car would be safer at the limit on more challenging roads and conditions. thanks j
With a proper geo and set up, a Lotus is as friendly/driftable as you want it to be. I find my Elise incredibly easy to slide about on road.
I love Pistonheads articles like this, two great cars and great writing, but also because I like to read the comments from people who've actually owned the cars as they're honest and free from some of the road tester bias that you get with cars like Porsche and BMW.
I've not owned many quick cars, but have driven a few over the years and I have to say the car that left the biggest impression was the Series 1 Elise I hired for a day in February 1997. For me that car is nearly perfect as something to take out and enjoy for driving sake.
But for daily enjoyment, my old MX-5 was so much fun and a lot of it was due to the approachable and fairly low limits.
So I'm another one happy to read about these quick Porsches and BMWs, but would be happy just to own a cheapish Jap roadster/coupe or an old hot hatch for fun drives.
Onehp said:
I can see two types of fun, on the one extreme we have the extremely thrilling, exhilarating cars where one gets on the throttle and catches your breath, it flies down the road and you get out bewildered from the ride. All the while just scratching the surface of the full dynamic repertoire of the car. The other extreme is that car that fits the accomplished driver like a glove and is so low powered that one can basically drive it on the edge all the time, all the time giving massive feedback to the drivers satisfaction as he/she dissects a great road, getting into a flow. The engine is maybe not very powerfull, but it is pleasing in its use.
You forgot the third type of driving fun, where grown men and women take pleasure in furiously typing how everyone who drives something more potent than an MX5 has downsized genitalia. 
If offered an afternoon and a joyride, I'll have an old Elise, thanks. But I'm glad that others enjoy their M2s and Caymans. Those who cast nasty comments about others who enjoy driving should be prepared for others to insist that we all drive Priuses... and wouldn't that be a Merry Christmas for all!
I owned a GT4 for 18 months and used it every day summer and winter. I haven't driven an M2.
Despite this, I struggle to believe that the GT4 offers better ride than an M2, unless it is driven exclusively on super smooth Tarmac. The GT4's suspension is super stiff, resulting in you attempting to steer around all the imperfections on the road.
Is the author really saying that the M2's ride is less compliant?
Also apart from mentioning 4 seats vs. 2, there's little other mention about practicality. The GT4's front splitter is very close to the ground; you won't get up in a multi-storey car park in one and front axle lift wasn't an option. Sleeping policemen can also be a problem.
The overly long gearing isn't great either if you want to experience the howl of the engine at high revs (at least legally), given that the red line in 2nd is over 80mph.
Don't get me wrong, it remains a brilliant car but it too wasn't perfect.
Despite this, I struggle to believe that the GT4 offers better ride than an M2, unless it is driven exclusively on super smooth Tarmac. The GT4's suspension is super stiff, resulting in you attempting to steer around all the imperfections on the road.
Is the author really saying that the M2's ride is less compliant?
Also apart from mentioning 4 seats vs. 2, there's little other mention about practicality. The GT4's front splitter is very close to the ground; you won't get up in a multi-storey car park in one and front axle lift wasn't an option. Sleeping policemen can also be a problem.
The overly long gearing isn't great either if you want to experience the howl of the engine at high revs (at least legally), given that the red line in 2nd is over 80mph.
Don't get me wrong, it remains a brilliant car but it too wasn't perfect.
GrahamAC said:
I owned a GT4 for 18 months and used it every day summer and winter. I haven't driven an M2.
Despite this, I struggle to believe that the GT4 offers better ride than an M2, unless it is driven exclusively on super smooth Tarmac. The GT4's suspension is super stiff, resulting in you attempting to steer around all the imperfections on the road.
Is the author really saying that the M2's ride is less compliant?
Also apart from mentioning 4 seats vs. 2, there's little other mention about practicality. The GT4's front splitter is very close to the ground; you won't get up in a multi-storey car park in one and front axle lift wasn't an option. Sleeping policemen can also be a problem.
The overly long gearing isn't great either if you want to experience the howl of the engine at high revs (at least legally), given that the red line in 2nd is over 80mph.
Don't get me wrong, it remains a brilliant car but it too wasn't perfect.
Interesting - had my GT4 for 2 years now and i really don't think the suspension is stiff at all - in fact unless its on a very crappy B road I prefer it in the sport setting, due to the extra body control it gives. So I think its very much down to personal preference. I also have an M135i and the stiffer of the two settings (sport in adaptive) gives a "crashier" ride than the GT4 in sport. IMO - the GT4 suspension settings are beautifully judged and really suit the UK conditions - its one of the reasons why with "long" gearing and "just" the normal Carrera S engine its such a star in the real world. Despite this, I struggle to believe that the GT4 offers better ride than an M2, unless it is driven exclusively on super smooth Tarmac. The GT4's suspension is super stiff, resulting in you attempting to steer around all the imperfections on the road.
Is the author really saying that the M2's ride is less compliant?
Also apart from mentioning 4 seats vs. 2, there's little other mention about practicality. The GT4's front splitter is very close to the ground; you won't get up in a multi-storey car park in one and front axle lift wasn't an option. Sleeping policemen can also be a problem.
The overly long gearing isn't great either if you want to experience the howl of the engine at high revs (at least legally), given that the red line in 2nd is over 80mph.
Don't get me wrong, it remains a brilliant car but it too wasn't perfect.
On the multi-storey car parks - the car goes to Gatwick and a local multi and in both there's no issue. Having said that I do drive it "defensively" as having had a 340R which was properly low - learnt to get a left or right wheel up over the hump ASAP.
schaeffs said:
GrahamAC said:
I owned a GT4 for 18 months and used it every day summer and winter. I haven't driven an M2.
Despite this, I struggle to believe that the GT4 offers better ride than an M2, unless it is driven exclusively on super smooth Tarmac. The GT4's suspension is super stiff, resulting in you attempting to steer around all the imperfections on the road.
Is the author really saying that the M2's ride is less compliant?
Also apart from mentioning 4 seats vs. 2, there's little other mention about practicality. The GT4's front splitter is very close to the ground; you won't get up in a multi-storey car park in one and front axle lift wasn't an option. Sleeping policemen can also be a problem.
The overly long gearing isn't great either if you want to experience the howl of the engine at high revs (at least legally), given that the red line in 2nd is over 80mph.
Don't get me wrong, it remains a brilliant car but it too wasn't perfect.
Interesting - had my GT4 for 2 years now and i really don't think the suspension is stiff at all - in fact unless its on a very crappy B road I prefer it in the sport setting, due to the extra body control it gives. So I think its very much down to personal preference. I also have an M135i and the stiffer of the two settings (sport in adaptive) gives a "crashier" ride than the GT4 in sport. IMO - the GT4 suspension settings are beautifully judged and really suit the UK conditions - its one of the reasons why with "long" gearing and "just" the normal Carrera S engine its such a star in the real world. Despite this, I struggle to believe that the GT4 offers better ride than an M2, unless it is driven exclusively on super smooth Tarmac. The GT4's suspension is super stiff, resulting in you attempting to steer around all the imperfections on the road.
Is the author really saying that the M2's ride is less compliant?
Also apart from mentioning 4 seats vs. 2, there's little other mention about practicality. The GT4's front splitter is very close to the ground; you won't get up in a multi-storey car park in one and front axle lift wasn't an option. Sleeping policemen can also be a problem.
The overly long gearing isn't great either if you want to experience the howl of the engine at high revs (at least legally), given that the red line in 2nd is over 80mph.
Don't get me wrong, it remains a brilliant car but it too wasn't perfect.
On the multi-storey car parks - the car goes to Gatwick and a local multi and in both there's no issue. Having said that I do drive it "defensively" as having had a 340R which was properly low - learnt to get a left or right wheel up over the hump ASAP.
I too don't think the ride is "super stiff", its actually one of the most ride compliant cars I've had! In comparison, my Cayman R and F56 JCW actually felt firmer.
Regarding not being able to park in multi storey car parks, I've now seen this bounded about several times on PH - I use to park my GT4 in the works multi storey daily, as well as parking in several other car parks and I've never had any sort of trouble other than sometimes brushing the plastic splitter at the bottom of the ramp (never been damaged though). I have also never struggled with a speeding hump.
The gearing crops up a lot, but the reality is its not really much different to a GT3 and the same ratios as a standard 981 Cayman S. In all honesty second could be tad shorter, but the rest of the gearing is geared accordingly for a car capable of over 180mph. No big deal really.
fuchsiasteve said:
Honeywell said:
A Toyota GT86 or a Mazda MX5 are both more fun more of the time on most British roads and if you don’t measure your willy by the proxy of your sports car you can save an absolute fortune.
Just sayin’
Couldn’t agree more. Trying to enjoy 400 bhp on a great B road drive will either scare you silly, end in tears or result in a ban. Give me a good old school jap motor with 160 bhp any day of the week than these two penis extensions. Well said mate. Will always result in a flaming on here with all the Rodney’s and Nigel’s who need the “badge”. Just sleep safe in the knowledge others who read these nonsense articles feel the same.Just sayin’
Far more fun in a gt86.
n17ves said:
schaeffs said:
GrahamAC said:
I owned a GT4 for 18 months and used it every day summer and winter. I haven't driven an M2.
Despite this, I struggle to believe that the GT4 offers better ride than an M2, unless it is driven exclusively on super smooth Tarmac. The GT4's suspension is super stiff, resulting in you attempting to steer around all the imperfections on the road.
Is the author really saying that the M2's ride is less compliant?
Also apart from mentioning 4 seats vs. 2, there's little other mention about practicality. The GT4's front splitter is very close to the ground; you won't get up in a multi-storey car park in one and front axle lift wasn't an option. Sleeping policemen can also be a problem.
The overly long gearing isn't great either if you want to experience the howl of the engine at high revs (at least legally), given that the red line in 2nd is over 80mph.
Don't get me wrong, it remains a brilliant car but it too wasn't perfect.
Interesting - had my GT4 for 2 years now and i really don't think the suspension is stiff at all - in fact unless its on a very crappy B road I prefer it in the sport setting, due to the extra body control it gives. So I think its very much down to personal preference. I also have an M135i and the stiffer of the two settings (sport in adaptive) gives a "crashier" ride than the GT4 in sport. IMO - the GT4 suspension settings are beautifully judged and really suit the UK conditions - its one of the reasons why with "long" gearing and "just" the normal Carrera S engine its such a star in the real world. Despite this, I struggle to believe that the GT4 offers better ride than an M2, unless it is driven exclusively on super smooth Tarmac. The GT4's suspension is super stiff, resulting in you attempting to steer around all the imperfections on the road.
Is the author really saying that the M2's ride is less compliant?
Also apart from mentioning 4 seats vs. 2, there's little other mention about practicality. The GT4's front splitter is very close to the ground; you won't get up in a multi-storey car park in one and front axle lift wasn't an option. Sleeping policemen can also be a problem.
The overly long gearing isn't great either if you want to experience the howl of the engine at high revs (at least legally), given that the red line in 2nd is over 80mph.
Don't get me wrong, it remains a brilliant car but it too wasn't perfect.
On the multi-storey car parks - the car goes to Gatwick and a local multi and in both there's no issue. Having said that I do drive it "defensively" as having had a 340R which was properly low - learnt to get a left or right wheel up over the hump ASAP.
I too don't think the ride is "super stiff", its actually one of the most ride compliant cars I've had! In comparison, my Cayman R and F56 JCW actually felt firmer.
Regarding not being able to park in multi storey car parks, I've now seen this bounded about several times on PH - I use to park my GT4 in the works multi storey daily, as well as parking in several other car parks and I've never had any sort of trouble other than sometimes brushing the plastic splitter at the bottom of the ramp (never been damaged though). I have also never struggled with a speeding hump.
The gearing crops up a lot, but the reality is its not really much different to a GT3 and the same ratios as a standard 981 Cayman S. In all honesty second could be tad shorter, but the rest of the gearing is geared accordingly for a car capable of over 180mph. No big deal really.
Gearing and splitter were a pain. The first ruined the car for me, the second you could work around.
A good all rounder and very useable as a daily.
GrahamAC said:
I owned a GT4 for 18 months and used it every day summer and winter. I haven't driven an M2.
Despite this, I struggle to believe that the GT4 offers better ride than an M2, unless it is driven exclusively on super smooth Tarmac. The GT4's suspension is super stiff, resulting in you attempting to steer around all the imperfections on the road.
Is the author really saying that the M2's ride is less compliant?
Also apart from mentioning 4 seats vs. 2, there's little other mention about practicality. The GT4's front splitter is very close to the ground; you won't get up in a multi-storey car park in one and front axle lift wasn't an option. Sleeping policemen can also be a problem.
The overly long gearing isn't great either if you want to experience the howl of the engine at high revs (at least legally), given that the red line in 2nd is over 80mph.
Don't get me wrong, it remains a brilliant car but it too wasn't perfect.
My M2 really was a very stiff car, and the Comptetition, by all accounts, is even stiffer. There’s a qualitative difference here as well: although the GT4 is stiff, the quality of the damping makes even sharp oscillations feel like they’re being handled in a single, controlled movement. Even if the M2C is softer (which, again, I’m not sure it is) I’ve never driven a sporting BMW that combined that same feeling of ‘rolling’ over every bump rather than submitting to them with a shudder down your spine. Despite this, I struggle to believe that the GT4 offers better ride than an M2, unless it is driven exclusively on super smooth Tarmac. The GT4's suspension is super stiff, resulting in you attempting to steer around all the imperfections on the road.
Is the author really saying that the M2's ride is less compliant?
Also apart from mentioning 4 seats vs. 2, there's little other mention about practicality. The GT4's front splitter is very close to the ground; you won't get up in a multi-storey car park in one and front axle lift wasn't an option. Sleeping policemen can also be a problem.
The overly long gearing isn't great either if you want to experience the howl of the engine at high revs (at least legally), given that the red line in 2nd is over 80mph.
Don't get me wrong, it remains a brilliant car but it too wasn't perfect.
The older I get, the less reason I see for all these 400+bhp cock-mobiles on the roads in the UK.
No driver with average skills can drive one safely while actually using the power properly, never mind legally.
And I am getting fed up with having Mr Superb-right-headlights 3 feet from my tail at 70 at night on any dual carrigeway you care to mention, just because i decided to use the German lane for more than 10 seconds and he has an M3/RS6/C63.
Suggest to them that they take their £60grand cock-mobile on a track to really enjoy it safely and they turn tail and run.
Yet, as said earlier in this thread, it is the only place where it is actually safe to use that power.
They should try it some time - my TVR comes alive on a track, it is what it was designed for.
130 on the Bentley Straight at Snetterton is fun. 130 on the M1 is just dangerous.
No driver with average skills can drive one safely while actually using the power properly, never mind legally.
And I am getting fed up with having Mr Superb-right-headlights 3 feet from my tail at 70 at night on any dual carrigeway you care to mention, just because i decided to use the German lane for more than 10 seconds and he has an M3/RS6/C63.
Suggest to them that they take their £60grand cock-mobile on a track to really enjoy it safely and they turn tail and run.
Yet, as said earlier in this thread, it is the only place where it is actually safe to use that power.
They should try it some time - my TVR comes alive on a track, it is what it was designed for.
130 on the Bentley Straight at Snetterton is fun. 130 on the M1 is just dangerous.
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