RE: Schumacher at 50: Time For Tea

[Harji]

lbc said:

yonex said:

Sorry, but you can't discuss the pinnacle of F1 driver talent without MS. Senna. Prost, Schumacher. That's F1 history.

Schumacher was never in the same league as Senna or Prost, or Mansell.

I'd put them in the following order, after many years of following F1

1= Prost and MS, both rutheless and intelligent drivers, Prost is never given the credit, but he was one of the best]
3= Senna

Not even fourth, but because he's on your quoted names he is 4th would be Mansell, and a very distant one. I write as someone who rooted for him as well, but lets face it, he won because his car had semi-active suspension, giving him a clear advantage,

No need to mention tyre blow outs and injuries, his famous one in Japan, is where he was already on pole and just tried to go faster, and the blow out, well its over the season the championship is decided, no one would have remembered if that happened mid-season, and I havent gone into the the season how other bad luck affected other drivers in that season.
Plus he's pretty much hated by the Williams staff at the time, not very good at setting up the car, very gritty and fast, but way off the best of the best,

[kars]

Harji said:

Something about how good he was, is being forgotten because of his success. People are forgetting in the Benetton he was in a manual transmission car and if I remember an article (vaguely) in Motorsport magazine where in that car he was only 0.3 secs slower than the semi-auto later around Spa, thats how quick and good he was.

When he went to Ferrari, the car wasa pig, we all know that, what is forgotten is why Berger and Alesi who went the other way, could not get the results out of the Benetton. I think it was Berger that said that he car Schumacher had left was so nervous and pointy, just looking at the steering would make it turn in, that it took a year to re-engineer the car for their styles. The thing is, that is how MS had the car set up.

There are so many things you can list why he was one of the greatest drivers the world has known, I actually put him at the top, and that's from someone who is Damon Hill fan.

Eddie Irwin talks about Schumacher's abilities on driving very nervous setup cars, driving on the millimeters...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg-lCaAY-dc&t=...

Edited by kars on Friday 4th January 12:30

Edited by kars on Friday 4th January 12:30

Edited by kars on Friday 4th January 13:32

Edited by kars on Friday 4th January 13:32

[Gandahar]

yonex said:

Gandahar said:

" I lost all respect for Damon when he bottled it and signed for Arrows, then refused to race, that's not what champions are made of."

Hold on, but what about 1999 when Michael Schumacher broke his leg at Silverstone? He then could not easily win the championship due to lost rounds so when Ferrari rang him up at his home to see how he was doing on his recovery and when he would be back his son answered the phone and said he was outside playing football! Not exactly racing back to the car to come 2nd or 3rd .....

That's not what champions are made of ....

More comments from you

"Schumacher was at the end of his career when Rosberg 'beat' him.

Not sure why you put beat in " " he did spank him, no quotes needed. Interestingly Alonso at end of his F1 career did not need quotes around beat because he was still "beating" his team mate. Something MS did not do.

"Schumacher will always be the king of what I consider to be the peak of F1"

He didn't really have a team mate to challenge him though did he, like Prost and Senna or Hamilton or Alonso. The whole team revolved around him. Byrne, Todt, Brawn, etc were epic and went from cowboys to being the professionals.

It's fairly obvious you don't have any respect for what MS achieved, which is your right, but please stop using hearsay as facts!

For many people he is, and was the defining driver of his generation. Damon Hill, as good as he, and every F1 driver is, wasn't in the same league, that's not my opinion it's a fact, backed up by the record books.

Gandahar said:

He didn't really have a team mate to challenge him though did he

He out qualified his team mate Andrea DiC in his first F1 race? He out qualified double world champion Piquet at Benneton in his first season there?

Gandahar said:

The whole team revolved around him. Byrne, Todt, Brawn, etc were epic and went from cowboys to being the professionals.

What would you have done, set the team up around the number two driver

7 World Championships and 91 wins. There is no argument really. Whether you like him or not he was a fantastic racing driver and is widely respected by most, if not all of the paddock today.

As for Damon, I bet that big Arrows contract makes up for missing out on a title or two.....

"It's fairly obvious you don't have any respect for what MS achieved, which is your right, but please stop using hearsay as facts"

What facts and what hearsay? Until you define where you think I put hearsay over facts I cannot answer. I am looking forward to your reply so I can also reply.

I do have respect for what MS achieved, no matter what fanboy tells you on the internet you are thinking to fit their worldview. My birthday is Jan 3rd 1968 so I am one more year older than Michael and as I said I have the utter respect for how Ferrari went from nothing to winning in F1 with Michael as the lead driver, he was a big cog in a big wheel. I also met him at Silverstone on a testing day ( I was there due to a tenuous link with Ford and Stewart GP believe it or not) and he was a really nice chap etc etc. Alan Partridge moment.............

So shut the feck up about what you think I believe. You know nothing on what I think from your screwed perspective. Cheers.

Being old though means putting things into perspective, something you have not come across yet as obviously from you posts you see a certain time as the best.. As I said in my posts above you will always have a likely argument with MS, that is how he drove. Pros and cons, no black or white.

Getting back to my main point, where did I post hearsay and not facts?

Edited by Gandahar on Friday 4th January 13:45

[Gandahar]

Harji said:

lbc said:

yonex said:

Sorry, but you can't discuss the pinnacle of F1 driver talent without MS. Senna. Prost, Schumacher. That's F1 history.

Schumacher was never in the same league as Senna or Prost, or Mansell.

I'd put them in the following order, after many years of following F1

1= Prost and MS, both rutheless and intelligent drivers, Prost is never given the credit, but he was one of the best]
3= Senna

Not even fourth, but because he's on your quoted names he is 4th would be Mansell, and a very distant one. I write as someone who rooted for him as well, but lets face it, he won because his car had semi-active suspension, giving him a clear advantage,

No need to mention tyre blow outs and injuries, his famous one in Japan, is where he was already on pole and just tried to go faster, and the blow out, well its over the season the championship is decided, no one would have remembered if that happened mid-season, and I havent gone into the the season how other bad luck affected other drivers in that season.
Plus he's pretty much hated by the Williams staff at the time, not very good at setting up the car, very gritty and fast, but way off the best of the best,

Yeah but how are Prost and MS and Senna racing in the USA compared to Mansell????

This is the whole point of this thread, you just cannot judge one against another, unlike fanboys like yonex who can.

It's pointless. The fact of the matter is Michael was a great driver who now has a great injury to deal with sadly.

We should remember the past but more than that, hope for the best for the future for him, one way or another.

I'm as bad as all others on getting this thread off topic.

Edited by Gandahar on Friday 4th January 13:48

[chrisironside]

llcoolmac said:

Augustus Windsock said:

Wow, I am a dhead?
Hmmm, surely pot/kettle as you fail to recognise that it was him being a dhead that led to his accident, deliberately skiing off-piste where he shouldn’t have
I’d guess his sheer arrogance would have made him think that he was as bulletproof as when he was racing (and no, I wouldn’t wish such an accident on anyone)
Not quite sure how Senna would be classed the same other than his ‘incident’ with Prost.
Having said that, in the film ‘Senna’, Prost did say he thought Senna was dangerous because he thought he was immortal (or words to that effect)

While your original comment didn't really make you a dhead, this one proved that you indeed are one. Clearly showing your bias against Schumacher by somehow suggesting that he got what he deserved. You clearly don't have a clue what off piste skiing is. He was skiing through two on piste sections and probably didn't even realise he had gone off piste.

God I hate know it all types when they don't have the foggiest notion what they are talking about.

Very much +1 to this

[frenchie TVR]

I am a massive Schumacher fan and he was one of the greatest drivers of all the time, but my question is why do we always look at F1 when talking about the greatest?

Surely the best track record of ANY DRIVERS EVER has to be Sebastien Loeb?

- He entered 11 WRC Championships and WON 10 and was 2nd in the one he did not win. He should have won the 11th too, but was disqualified in 1 race du to technicality on the tires and those missing points made him loose the race and become 2nd in the championship.
- He totally smashed the Pikes Peak record the first year he entered
- Finished second at Le mans in in second entry
- Won the Dakar

Which other driver has ever won 10 championships out of 11th entered…? I bet there is no other one in the whole history of motor racing…. ?

I hope Michael does a miraculous recovery, the man deserves it! Happy birthday Michael and Happy New year 2019!

[andymac]

Was lucky enough to be there at Spa 91 for his first ever race in the Jordan and the following year for his first ever win in the Benetton and to cap it was at his last race win in 2006 at Shanghai when I lived in China.
True champion not my favourite driver by any means but has my respect for what he achieved and really hoping one day to see him back .
Happy Birthday Michael !

[wab172uk]

Augustus Windsock said:

And the worst cheat; taking out Damon Hill, trying to take out Villeneuve, ‘parking’ his car in the middle of the track at Monaco
Not forgetting the time he claimed to be able to modulate the throttle just using his sensitive little foot TWELVE TIMES PER SECOND (think you’ll find that was the traction control you weren’t allowed to have Michael but which Ferraro managed to get around by getting FIA to say they couldn’t prove it was used even though it was fitted..)
Great driver?
Undoubtedly
Great cheat?
Indubitably.
Personally I really cant like or admire him, but that said, I sincerely hope that he makes a recovery from the injuries he received whilst skiing.
As an aside, I was musing over the greatest drivers of the last 40yrs, and came up with Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumacher.
Of those, I’d guess Senna is loved the most, because whilst all of them were single-minded and arrogant, only Senna seemed to have the common touch and a sort of vulnerability that endeared him to fans.
I stand to be corrected, of course...

You do realise don't you (or conveniently forgetting) that Senna won a world championship by ramming Prost off the race track on the first corner of a Grand Prix. It wasn't even a surprise, as he told everyone before hand what he was going to do.

So it's fine for Senna, but not for Schuey?

[anonymous-user]

Gandahar said:

What facts and what hearsay? Until you define where you think I put hearsay over facts I cannot answer. I am looking forward to your reply so I can also reply. The

I do have respect for what MS achieved, no matter what fanboy tells you on the internet you are thinking to fit their worldview. My birthday is Jan 3rd 1968 so I am one more year older than Michael and as I said I have the utter respect for how Ferrari went from nothing to winning in F1 with Michael as the lead driver, he was a big cog in a big wheel. I also met him at Silverstone on a testing day ( I was there due to a tenuous link with Ford and Stewart GP believe it or not) and he was a really nice chap etc etc. Alan Partridge moment.............

So shut the feck up about what you think I believe. You know nothing on what I think from your screwed perspective. Cheers.

Being old though means putting things into perspective, something you have not come across yet as obviously from you posts you see a certain time as the best.. As I said in my posts above you will always have a likely argument with MS, that is how he drove. Pros and cons, no black or white.

Getting back to my main point, where did I post hearsay and not facts?

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 4th January 13:45

Whatever you say old chap. I don’t really care either way. Debating with one dimensional minds is something I have given up this year.

[V8RX7]

Mackofthejungle said:

I can't see why his health would ever be part of a conversation about his racing career... Senna was a dick, Schumacher was a dick. Both great drivers.

^^^ This

[Europa1]

yonex said:

Please don't mention Damon Hill and MS in the same sentence.

That's a little unrealistic; it's quite hard not to when talking about the seasons they were competing for the world championship. "Schumacher and the driver of the no.[#] Williams" is a bit cumbersome.

Edited by Europa1 on Friday 4th January 16:23

[tgx]

No love for Juan Fangio guys? Those early cars were so primitive you had
to be supremely good.

[oilit]

I realise I am going to get mobbed for the following comment - but here goes anyway:

For me, Schumacher and Ferrari winning every race is what stopped me watching F1 when I was a teenager and haven't watched it since.

It's also a little strange to me that his family rightly want to secure privacy for him in what must be a very sad state of affairs for them and him - if he even knows it. YET, they are happy to monetize on the back of his past with new apps etc (https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.schumacher-50th-birthday-new-app.3mrSlKcPksUoiSsKuoSG8C.html) which I am afraid I see as pure exploitation and somewhat contradictory to their desire for privacy.

His accident was a tragedy - regardless of his personality - as the saying goes : I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

But his family need to stop talking out of both sides of their head and either go 100% private and stop all the apps etc or be prepared to open up completely. I would suggest the former rather than the latter please.

Edited by oilit on Friday 4th January 21:05

[Buzypea]

loveice said:

Buzypea said:

The Dick Dasterdly of F1. I loved to hate him but in a pantomime kind of way. Loved watching him battle against Mika Hakkinen in the late 90’s, it was probably one of my favourite eras in F1 history. Ultimately I think Schumacher was overrated, 7 world titles definitely flatters his actual ability. Some of the stunts he pulled over the years were absolutely disgraceful and his team mates would always come to Ferrari on the understanding they would be a no.2 driver and help him win.

When he returned to F1 at Mercedes and wasn’t given the number 1 treatment, Rosberg outpaced him easily. Though to be fair, Rosberg was actually a very good driver.

I wish Schumacher well as he’s provided years of entertainment in F1 and hope he eventually makes a good recovery.

Do you really think and believe Schumacher's wins and pole positions over his also very talented team mates were all been given? And I don't think it's fair to compare someone who's in his retirement to someone who's on top of his form, either.

And yet on only the 6th race of the 2002 season we had the debacle in Austria where Barrichello let Schumacher pass on the last corner to allow him to win. Also look at the amount of pole positions Schumacher has won compared to Lewis (68 to Lewis’s 83) and Schumacher entered approx 80 more races than Lewis. It would appear Schumacher was actually not that great at qualifying but could could win lots of races from starting 2nd on the grid, mainly because of team orders. Barrichello has openly admitted he was told he would be a number 2 driver to Schumacher when he came to Ferrari. I am not saying all his race wins were given to him, but a lot were engineered through team orders to allow him to win the drivers championship. Plus I don’t think Schumacher ever had a really talented team mate. If only Alonso was at Ferrari at the same time it would have been a different story.

There’s no doubt he was a very good driver, but 7 world championships does flatter him....and the 94 title was a farce.

[BlackPrince]

OpulentBob said:

Probabky thinks everyone should be nice about Savile, Sutcliffe and Jade Goody too.

Is there something wrong with you mate?

[Sine Metu]

tgx said:

No love for Juan Fangio guys? Those early cars were so primitive you had
to be supremely good.

That was the era of so called 'gentlemen racers' and generally wealthy playboys driving expensive toys for fun. Doesn't count as motor racing in my view.

[Brainpox]

Some seriously hateful people in this thread. Debating which driver is the best of all time should be a friendly affair surely?

[SidewaysSi]

Europa1 said:

yonex said:

Please don't mention Damon Hill and MS in the same sentence.

That's a little unrealistic; it's quite hard not to when talking about the seasons they were competing for the world championship. "Schumacher and the driver of the no.[#] Williams" is a bit cumbersome.

Edited by Europa1 on Friday 4th January 16:23

But Hill was a bit st.

[FK]

I'm not sure what it says about society that some think it's acceptable to compare a Formula 1 driver who occasionally went too far with his pursuit of greatness, to alleged criminals. If anything, it could be seen to trivialise the pain and suffering that has been inflicted by said criminals, which I don't think potential victims would be too happy about

No one knows for certain who the 'greatest driver of all time' actually is. As has been mentioned earlier before, why stop at F1?

[Mr Tidy]

SidewaysSi said:

But Hill was a bit st.

Maybe, but once or twice MS was a bit of a sh*t when crashing into Hill - sorry, typo - "racing against him". (Supposedly).