RE: BMW E46 M3 CSL: Spotted

[mwstewart]

Alpinestars said:

5.45 onwards articulates the point well. It’s not about turning TC off (ie, race mode), it’s tne inconsistency - no doubt as a result of an e diff.

The M3 is much more (ie, very), consistent.

https://youtu.be/DVxLgbMfL_k

I can relate to that. Haldex, torque vectoring and other crap may make a car objectively faster, but there's no beating the feel of a good chassis - the E46 M has great balance. A very enjoyable car to drive fast.

[MDL111]

is it best to send it to the closest BMW dealer for a PPI or are their specialist to check a car? I will not be able to look at it myself (not that that would help much given I know f... all about mechanical components of cars), so a proper PPI is kinda important….

[matt21]

Not sure if it has been said, by this car has been for sale for ever and probably £10,000 Over priced.

I had two, sold my 35k today for much less. The market has dropped in the last 18mths and this car hasn’t moved accordingly.

They are fantastic, special cars. A recent trip to the Ring in my 70k example demonstrated that in the real world it was slower than my friends 440i, but it’s not about that. I can’t see BMW building anything like it again

[Alpinestars]

matt21 said:

Not sure if it has been said, by this car has been for sale for ever and probably £10,000 Over priced.

I had two, sold my 35k today for much less. The market has dropped in the last 18mths and this car hasn’t moved accordingly.

They are fantastic, special cars. A recent trip to the Ring in my 70k example demonstrated that in the real world it was slower than my friends 440i, but it’s not about that. I can’t see BMW building anything like it again

When you say “like it”, what do you mean? They’ve built the E92 and F80 GTS, and the DTM since the CSL.

[Matthew7711]

The CSL must be the most copied BMW of all time.

Not everyone will think they are worth the price but it’s staggering how many CSL owners own x2 of them and when they sell they regret it (or get a tad bitter/trollish).

I like all M cars and they all have their plus points..just need to respect everyone choice.

[blade7]

I get that they're great drivers cars, and fair play if it's someones 2nd or 3rd car. But just like the E30 M3 there's contemporary turbocharged cars that have the potential to drive away from a CSL.

[Slippydiff]

MDL111 said:

am now back to looking at the classifieds... still tempted to buy one of the cheap RHD ones to keep (one of the ones in the 35-45k bracket) and use as a trackday/mountain road car.

I assume the seating position is fine in RHD given no clutch pedal?
Any stories re engine rebuild requirements at high mileage (would buy one with 80k plus miles on the clock already)?

RHD seating position is perfect.
Head gaskets often fail circa 70k miles.
I’d prefer to use a specialist to do a PP inspection, rather than a main dealer.
If you must use a dealer, go on the CSL register forum and ask for feedback about the dealer you’re advocating using. Some good, some poor.

[Slippydiff]

Guvernator said:

Slippydiff said:

Dear Mr Schirmer ....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wBVYxp_kSSw

Nice though it is that's not really what I was on about either, that is more GTS\trackday racer than CSL. That has a roll cage and no rear seats for a start.

The CSL was an amazing achievement shedding 110kgs while still largely keeping the car everyday usable, it even kept the rear seats. I think losing the rear seats is bit of a cheat way to lose weight IMO, once you lose the seats it might as well be a different car completely.

Apologies, my post wasn’t clear. I was suggesting Schirmer could build something somewhere between a E92 GTS and a production Competition pack car losing 100 plus kilos in the process and retaining all the interior. I wasn’t suggesting one of their caged, full on track cars was the answer, more that with their knowledge of the E92 M3 they’d be the company to produce an E92 CSL.

Though in all honesty losing 110k kilos from an E92 M3 wouldn’t be that tricky.
Lightweight wheels, lighterweight seats, lightweight battery, AP brakes, lightweight exhaust and some trim removal from the boot area along with a decent quality carbon bonnet and boot lid would see the figure you’ve mentioned breached easily.

Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 12th January 00:38

[drpep]

Griffgrog said:

I had one after selling my 997 GT3RS. It was quite disappointing, nowhere near as good as the 911 in any aspect. They're expensive because they're rare and that's about it.

I too had one after my 997 GT3, and reached the same conclusion pretty quickly. Great car in isolation (reliability aside), but nowhere near the engagement or 'event' that was each and every drive in the GT3. Not even close.

[mark.c]

drpep said:

Griffgrog said:

I had one after selling my 997 GT3RS. It was quite disappointing, nowhere near as good as the 911 in any aspect. They're expensive because they're rare and that's about it.

I too had one after my 997 GT3, and reached the same conclusion pretty quickly. Great car in isolation (reliability aside), but nowhere near the engagement or 'event' that was each and every drive in the GT3. Not even close.

Let's be honest here, that's hardly comparing apples with apples, although trying to draw a comparison between a CSL built in 2003 against the dedicated track version of the next era generation of 911 is flattering for the CSL.

[isaldiri]

Alpinestars said:

The GTS is one of the best drivers’ cars around imv. It’s got more power than the CSL, a fantastic engine, beautifully playful chassis, beautiful steering and damping. The only area it doesn’t quite compete in, is the screaming engine and induction noise of the CSL.

You reckon the gts is a better car to drive than the csl?

[Alpinestars]

isaldiri said:

Alpinestars said:

The GTS is one of the best drivers’ cars around imv. It’s got more power than the CSL, a fantastic engine, beautifully playful chassis, beautiful steering and damping. The only area it doesn’t quite compete in, is the screaming engine and induction noise of the CSL.

You reckon the gts is a better car to drive than the csl?

100%.

[MDL111]

Slippydiff said:

MDL111 said:

am now back to looking at the classifieds... still tempted to buy one of the cheap RHD ones to keep (one of the ones in the 35-45k bracket) and use as a trackday/mountain road car.

I assume the seating position is fine in RHD given no clutch pedal?
Any stories re engine rebuild requirements at high mileage (would buy one with 80k plus miles on the clock already)?

RHD seating position is perfect.
Head gaskets often fail circa 70k miles.
I’d prefer to use a specialist to do a PP inspection, rather than a main dealer.
If you must use a dealer, go on the CSL register forum and ask for feedback about the dealer you’re advocating using. Some good, some poor.

Great, thank you Slippy - will continue to watch the market for a bit (the cars I looked at about 3-4 months ago still seem to be for sale) - no point in buying right now given how much snow there is in Munich. Maybe I will make a couple of cheeky offers during the next couple of months and see what happens.

RHD is the only option for me, as the LHD cars are priced at a similar level to a 996 GT3 (actually probably on average higher than the Porsche) and then I’d rather buy a nice 996.1 CS to have a manual

[obscene]

MDL111 said:

am now back to looking at the classifieds... still tempted to buy one of the cheap RHD ones to keep (one of the ones in the 35-45k bracket) and use as a trackday/mountain road car.

I assume the seating position is fine in RHD given no clutch pedal?
Any stories re engine rebuild requirements at high mileage (would buy one with 80k plus miles on the clock already)?

No different to any other E46 M3's to my knowledge. Main problems are rod bearings need replacing 80-100k miles (can grenade the engine if not done) and the Vanos looked at. Oil pump can have the sprocket fall off of it and the guides/tensioners loosen up but seems rare. Head gasket as mentioned but I'd say higher mileage than 70k, it's the rear cylinders keeping the heat in and the gasket will split between cylinders 1 and 2.

I think as long as you're aware of the problems you know what you're in for. Get on M3cutters and have a good read about all the problems.

[MDL111]

obscene said:

MDL111 said:

am now back to looking at the classifieds... still tempted to buy one of the cheap RHD ones to keep (one of the ones in the 35-45k bracket) and use as a trackday/mountain road car.

I assume the seating position is fine in RHD given no clutch pedal?
Any stories re engine rebuild requirements at high mileage (would buy one with 80k plus miles on the clock already)?

No different to any other E46 M3's to my knowledge. Main problems are rod bearings need replacing 80-100k miles (can grenade the engine if not done) and the Vanos looked at. Oil pump can have the sprocket fall off of it and the guides/tensioners loosen up but seems rare. Head gasket as mentioned but I'd say higher mileage than 70k, it's the rear cylinders keeping the heat in and the gasket will split between cylinders 1 and 2.

I think as long as you're aware of the problems you know what you're in for. Get on M3cutters and have a good read about all the problems.

Thank you - will do some reading on the issues

[s m]

mwstewart said:

I can relate to that. Haldex, torque vectoring and other crap may make a car objectively faster, but there's no beating the feel of a good chassis - the E46 M has great balance. A very enjoyable car to drive fast.

I particularly like this video to watch as it’s the older CSL that seems much less wayward than the newer, similar performance car.
Usually with old vs new tests it’s the other way round and the oldtimer looks a bit roly-poly. Interesting Re the prices 4 years back too

https://youtu.be/m8amcRnmYfM

Going back a decade or so I often used to see one driven spiritedly on the local roads and it was fun to see it powered through the roundabouts and hear the noise of it
About the time I no longer saw it, a 1M appeared, similarly driven, on the same route
Often wondered if it was the same guy driving it ..........or just a coincidence

A couple of people I know bought them at the bottom of the market and still have them, one of them was pretty keen on his manual boxes and seems a convert now

I would’ve liked a white one - sure there was a wrapped one/replica one that looked great in the videos

[VonSenger]

BFleming said:

I've been on trackdays at certain UK circuits and seen CSLs get black flagged for their drive-by noise. They do indeed howl, and it's something that you can't replicate on a 1/2 redline static noise test.
Although a fair few still frequent Touristenfahrt days on the Nordschleife, you rarely see CSLs at UK circuits any more. I suspect value is the main reason.
I remember the SMGII box in these being ok; a friend had the E46 M3CS with this box, and it went well enough. That was his everyday car, and AFAIK he had no issues.

I got black flagged in mine at both bedford and brands. The noise was lovely but a pain in the arse on track.

[MikeyC]

cerb4.5lee said:

The S54 is too much of a screamer(tinny and like a Honda VTEC) for me, and I much prefer engines with a much deeper tone. An American V8 is more to my taste...l think I must be old fashioned!

I kinda agree, can sound a bit 'tinny'

Someone on m3cutters forum had their back-box modded: video here
Sounds a nice improvement

[cerb4.5lee]

MikeyC said:

cerb4.5lee said:

The S54 is too much of a screamer(tinny and like a Honda VTEC) for me, and I much prefer engines with a much deeper tone. An American V8 is more to my taste...l think I must be old fashioned!

I kinda agree, can sound a bit 'tinny'

Someone on m3cutters forum had their back-box modded: video here
Sounds a nice improvement

It still has that high pitch scream to it that I don't like. It makes a noise of a much smaller engine than it actually is to me. The induction noise did sound good when it was coming back down the road though.

[s m]

MikeyC said:

cerb4.5lee said:

The S54 is too much of a screamer(tinny and like a Honda VTEC) for me, and I much prefer engines with a much deeper tone. An American V8 is more to my taste...l think I must be old fashioned!

I kinda agree, can sound a bit 'tinny'

Someone on m3cutters forum had their back-box modded: video here
Sounds a nice improvement

Sounds like it has more bass like the 1M

https://youtu.be/q-7l_Zt3I2s