RE: Jaguar Land Rover facing "perfect storm"
Discussion
daveco said:
I really think Jaguar needs a sport hatchback or a car similar to the MX5 to draw attention to the brand.
The MX5 is very profitable for Mazda, and a sporty hatchback to go up against the likes of the Golf R, A45, M140 etc would certainly sell well, particularly if the oft-quoted downturn really takes hold.
...but that's not what JLR are about and IMO going after mass-market appeal has been part of the problem.The MX5 is very profitable for Mazda, and a sporty hatchback to go up against the likes of the Golf R, A45, M140 etc would certainly sell well, particularly if the oft-quoted downturn really takes hold.
Jaguar & Range Rover are aspirational brands, the type of car you would dream about owning. As soon as you start mass producing them, you've lost a lot of that appeal overnight and you've then created yourself a host of other problems with the support network and people whinging about fuel economy, etc...
The writing has been on the wall for a while and I would describe it as a "Me too..." type mentality internally. i.e. as soon as a competitor announces something (e.g. Black Edition), JLR had to do the same. They went from leaders, where competitors used to compare themselves to the Defender or Range Rover, to being followers where they are now just part of the herd.
M
Even the police don't "drive the flag"
Well, they do still drive a lot of Astras, some Focus, and looking at a couple of police disposal auction website right now they are using Range Rovers in plain cover and Discos on highway patrols still it seems but there seem to be some German stuff but also a growing amount of Korean.
Like all these things, it's all about budgets, lowest purchase costs relate to biggest incentives, more sales = more profit = bigger marketing budgets = bigger incentives for fleet purchases... It's a vicious circle.
Well, they do still drive a lot of Astras, some Focus, and looking at a couple of police disposal auction website right now they are using Range Rovers in plain cover and Discos on highway patrols still it seems but there seem to be some German stuff but also a growing amount of Korean.
Like all these things, it's all about budgets, lowest purchase costs relate to biggest incentives, more sales = more profit = bigger marketing budgets = bigger incentives for fleet purchases... It's a vicious circle.
Thornaby said:
I've thought for a while that Jaguar just arent as good as the competition. One of the only ways out is if the government changed the rules so that VED on cars built in the UK was £0 or company car tax on UK built cars was massively reduced. Cant see it though.
Never, all the government care about is money, they are sell outs, outsource everything from Trains to lamppost bulb replacements. I saw a lamppost bulb being replaced my a company called Skansa, Swedish, we’re there no British companies you could give that contract to? It’s all about money.
I could give loads of other examples but I can’t think of any right now.
camel_landy said:
daveco said:
I really think Jaguar needs a sport hatchback or a car similar to the MX5 to draw attention to the brand.
The MX5 is very profitable for Mazda, and a sporty hatchback to go up against the likes of the Golf R, A45, M140 etc would certainly sell well, particularly if the oft-quoted downturn really takes hold.
...but that's not what JLR are about and IMO going after mass-market appeal has been part of the problem.The MX5 is very profitable for Mazda, and a sporty hatchback to go up against the likes of the Golf R, A45, M140 etc would certainly sell well, particularly if the oft-quoted downturn really takes hold.
Jaguar & Range Rover are aspirational brands, the type of car you would dream about owning. As soon as you start mass producing them, you've lost a lot of that appeal overnight and you've then created yourself a host of other problems with the support network and people whinging about fuel economy, etc...
The writing has been on the wall for a while and I would describe it as a "Me too..." type mentality internally. i.e. as soon as a competitor announces something (e.g. Black Edition), JLR had to do the same. They went from leaders, where competitors used to compare themselves to the Defender or Range Rover, to being followers where they are now just part of the herd.
M
E65Ross said:
Trouble is, that aspirational approach hasn't worked, has it. (I still don't think they should do an MX5 rival though)
They are no longer aspirational, they are very much achievable. Hence the devaluation of the brand. in the past, you needed to be pretty comfortable to afford a Range Rover, now you can be driving around in a 'Range Rover' for £300/month (even a proper one for a grand). They are now no better than BMW/Audi in this regard. The same car, in seven different sizes, just like the Audi/BMW model. And by chasing volume they have lost sight of what made them desirable in the first place. Just look at the picture chosen by PH to represent the brand in the news article, a orange RRS with a black bonnet. That is what RR has become, and by extension pretty much the whole LR range.Jaguar also lacks halo products at a more accessible price point, where is the XFR, XER (could have used previous 3.0 V6 for this) and where is the F-Pace SVR?! That model seems to be taking an age to come out.
Under Ford they got the quality right but with a poor product line up, under Tata they have got an increased product lineup but the quality gains seem to have gone. As someone previously mentioned quantity over quality.
Under Ford they got the quality right but with a poor product line up, under Tata they have got an increased product lineup but the quality gains seem to have gone. As someone previously mentioned quantity over quality.
LimaDelta said:
They are no longer aspirational, they are very much achievable. Hence the devaluation of the brand. in the past, you needed to be pretty comfortable to afford a Range Rover, now you can be driving around in a 'Range Rover' for £300/month (even a proper one for a grand). They are now no better than BMW/Audi in this regard. The same car, in seven different sizes, just like the Audi/BMW model. And by chasing volume they have lost sight of what made them desirable in the first place. Just look at the picture chosen by PH to represent the brand in the news article, a orange RRS with a black bonnet. That is what RR has become, and by extension pretty much the whole LR range.
Fully agree. Not sure if people care these days, though Burberry reckon the same wrong path nearly finished them off.When I see an Evoque I see pretentious loser who cant afford a Range Rover but thinks he's big time leasing a silly little box on 4 wheels.
Every JLR owner I know says they won't buy one next time - my experience working with them did not give me an impression that quality was understood or even mattered.
JLRs problems can be summed up as Management gross incompetence led by one thing - egos, at every level I came across (and thats every level below the CEO).
Talking of aspirations...I always looked up to Mercedes Benz, getting one as a company car was one of the proudest days of my life. If JLR have lessened themselves, they have nothing on Mercedes (the choice of the chav) - I wonder when their brand dilution will come back to haunt them
Edited by wsn03 on Thursday 10th January 13:33
Edited by wsn03 on Thursday 10th January 13:34
2 other issues I have heard about that seem to make sense to me.
The forcing Jag dealers to sell Land Rovers and Visa versa has caused ongoing friction and issues.
In China they love Land/Range rovers but no love for Jags. Dealers are forced to take X Jags for each Land Rover which they hate and has impacted overall sales. In China, for some reason they see Jaguar to land Rover as Seat is to Audi.
The forcing Jag dealers to sell Land Rovers and Visa versa has caused ongoing friction and issues.
In China they love Land/Range rovers but no love for Jags. Dealers are forced to take X Jags for each Land Rover which they hate and has impacted overall sales. In China, for some reason they see Jaguar to land Rover as Seat is to Audi.
Krikkit said:
Mercedes, Audi and BMW have spent their way out of the dieselgate scandal in a way that JLR simply can't - they haven't got the resource to be able to rush through a new generation of petrol engines and wave the shiny hybrids around.
Exactly, so how on earth is JLR going to improve by cutting costs and staff! They hardly have an enviable reputation for reliability - further cost cutting is not exactly going to improve that situation.LimaDelta said:
They are no longer aspirational, they are very much achievable. Hence the devaluation of the brand. in the past, you needed to be pretty comfortable to afford a Range Rover, now you can be driving around in a 'Range Rover' for £300/month (even a proper one for a grand). They are now no better than BMW/Audi in this regard. The same car, in seven different sizes, just like the Audi/BMW model. And by chasing volume they have lost sight of what made them desirable in the first place. Just look at the picture chosen by PH to represent the brand in the news article, a orange RRS with a black bonnet. That is what RR has become, and by extension pretty much the whole LR range.
That's the situation with all new cars at the moment so it's a bit unfair to pick on LR for it. You're right though in regards to the Range Rover going downmarket with their range - the Evoque could be just a 'Land Rover Evoque' I don't think it would have made a lot of difference even. Same with the Velar. You also can't, unfortunately, choose who you sell your cars to and the current trend of expensive cars painted in lurid colours with dark wheels in 'footballer spec' again are victims of all brands.. just look at Bentley and Aston Martin.
Easy.....
The problem is the Jaguar brand not the LR brand.
Skip hybrid and focus on electric power trains.
Don’t replace the xj and f type. No volume. High cost of production etc.
Can the current f pace now!
Release Range Rover velur with jag/Daimler badge. Use the brand to dictate wheels, trims etc but sod all else to keep costs down.
Keep I pace as it’s new and elec.
Keep xe and add electric power from I pace
Don’t bother replacing xf as it’s a shrinking market that demands quality.
Land Rover keep going as is. But add elec powertrains when available.
Get LR into an untapped market- the electric 1 ton pickup truck in utility spec for the self employed and the utility companies. Offer on rental deals with license options for features
Such as radio, sat nav, phone, heated seats, 240v power per hr etc. Do it right and you kill the developed countries market for ranger and hilux dead.
The problem is the Jaguar brand not the LR brand.
Skip hybrid and focus on electric power trains.
Don’t replace the xj and f type. No volume. High cost of production etc.
Can the current f pace now!
Release Range Rover velur with jag/Daimler badge. Use the brand to dictate wheels, trims etc but sod all else to keep costs down.
Keep I pace as it’s new and elec.
Keep xe and add electric power from I pace
Don’t bother replacing xf as it’s a shrinking market that demands quality.
Land Rover keep going as is. But add elec powertrains when available.
Get LR into an untapped market- the electric 1 ton pickup truck in utility spec for the self employed and the utility companies. Offer on rental deals with license options for features
Such as radio, sat nav, phone, heated seats, 240v power per hr etc. Do it right and you kill the developed countries market for ranger and hilux dead.
Chestrockwell said:
Thornaby said:
I've thought for a while that Jaguar just arent as good as the competition. One of the only ways out is if the government changed the rules so that VED on cars built in the UK was £0 or company car tax on UK built cars was massively reduced. Cant see it though.
Never, all the government care about is money, they are sell outs, outsource everything from Trains to lamppost bulb replacements. I saw a lamppost bulb being replaced my a company called Skansa, Swedish, we’re there no British companies you could give that contract to? It’s all about money.
I could give loads of other examples but I can’t think of any right now.
leakymanifold said:
And yet at the same time Volvo is doing swimmingly, now selling more than JLR with a much smaller portfolio of cars and even increasing its sales in China. Suggests the fault lies with JLRs strategy somewhere other than diesel as Volvo had the same engine strategy pretty much.
Interesting point.One of the key things about the car market in the UK, but maybe it applies more broadly, is that the perceived quality of interiors and their design has become ever more important to sales success. Volvo (and plenty of other brands) destroys Jaguar in this regard. Jaguar, pistonheads at heart I guess, appear to me to have preferred to focus their limited resources on chassis tuning. When did any reviewer ever say that a Volvo rode or handled better than the equivalent Jag...?
As a PH'er I applaud Jag for this approach but clearly it's a strategy that has not helped their sales recently. (and I should fess up to owning an 8 year old XC90 with which the wife, our three kids, their friends and the mountains of crap we cart around are all very happy)
I like Jaguar, but for me it main problems are:-
They are more expensive than their German rivals (from what I've priced up)
Every JLR car weighs far more than their rivals.
The interiors are not as nice as their rivals.
The technology is not as good as it's rivals.
Lack of AWD in it's cars.
Needs a Hatchback, and a couple sporty versions with AWD and manual gearboxes.
They are more expensive than their German rivals (from what I've priced up)
Every JLR car weighs far more than their rivals.
The interiors are not as nice as their rivals.
The technology is not as good as it's rivals.
Lack of AWD in it's cars.
Needs a Hatchback, and a couple sporty versions with AWD and manual gearboxes.
LimaDelta said:
E65Ross said:
Trouble is, that aspirational approach hasn't worked, has it. (I still don't think they should do an MX5 rival though)
They are no longer aspirational, they are very much achievable. Hence the devaluation of the brand. in the past, you needed to be pretty comfortable to afford a Range Rover, now you can be driving around in a 'Range Rover' for £300/month (even a proper one for a grand). They are now no better than BMW/Audi in this regard. The same car, in seven different sizes, just like the Audi/BMW model. And by chasing volume they have lost sight of what made them desirable in the first place. Just look at the picture chosen by PH to represent the brand in the news article, a orange RRS with a black bonnet. That is what RR has become, and by extension pretty much the whole LR range....and they do have an MX5 rival, it's just a little bit more expensive.
M
Two points to make.
1. Interiors
XE - boring and plasticky
XF - boring, okay quality
XJ - was fabulous to look at; has aged considerably.
E-Pace - good: sporty and attractive. I cannot comment on quality
F-Pace - average at best. Quality average too
i-Pace - excellent interior. Stylish, contemporary, feels good. Miles more attractive than the German opposition (SUVs in general)
F-Type - see E-Pace.
2. The offering
Last year, I was looking for a mid size car that would suit a rural environment, a very steep drive, and the ability to take bikes, dogs etc. I wanted an estate; the Steering Committee wanted an SUV for (a) ease of access (high hip point) and (b) visibility. SUV it was. I tested the Jag F-Pace and the (new) Volvo XC60. The German cars were non starters - boring and fugly/bland (outside and in) apart from the Porsche Macan which was above our price point.
We chose the XC60T5. Why?
- the interior is way superior to the Jaguar. You can get it in interior colours other than Coal Bunker Black too (which I will never accept)
- the deal was considerably better in terms of car for buck
- the car's user interface was considerably better than the Jag. The 360 degree reversing camera is a sight to behold. The Jag had nothing as good. This is the stuff that sways decisions.
What was the F-Pace better at?
- handling. Way way better. The F-Pace is a fabulous steer.
- looks. I love the XC60's looks (ours is metallic red) but the Jaguar is gorgeous.
In the end it came down to pricing and the driving environment. The Volvo feels and looks superior. It's an okay drive, but this is an SUV, not an MX5. I don't look to scrape the door handles while driving Pooch to the nearest park. The price was about £150/month cheaper too - that's significant.
Jaguar, much more than Land Rover, need to seriously up their game in terms of interior quality and style. The XE has a great chassis and drives brilliantly (I llke the looks too) but it's interior really is low rent. No flair. Audi are way better in terms of presentation and "feel". That stuff sells cars, I would have paid that premium if the car felt premium - but it didn't.
I agree with the points about reliance on diesels, but the comment on the i-Pace being rubbish? Really? Nonsense! It sold 2,300 in the NL alone in December - outselling the Tesla models by some margin, The Audi's e-Tron is a fugly girning blob by comparison. It's Jaguar's future - or the beginning of it. Old Jags had grace, space and pace. So too does the i-Pace.
1. Interiors
XE - boring and plasticky
XF - boring, okay quality
XJ - was fabulous to look at; has aged considerably.
E-Pace - good: sporty and attractive. I cannot comment on quality
F-Pace - average at best. Quality average too
i-Pace - excellent interior. Stylish, contemporary, feels good. Miles more attractive than the German opposition (SUVs in general)
F-Type - see E-Pace.
2. The offering
Last year, I was looking for a mid size car that would suit a rural environment, a very steep drive, and the ability to take bikes, dogs etc. I wanted an estate; the Steering Committee wanted an SUV for (a) ease of access (high hip point) and (b) visibility. SUV it was. I tested the Jag F-Pace and the (new) Volvo XC60. The German cars were non starters - boring and fugly/bland (outside and in) apart from the Porsche Macan which was above our price point.
We chose the XC60T5. Why?
- the interior is way superior to the Jaguar. You can get it in interior colours other than Coal Bunker Black too (which I will never accept)
- the deal was considerably better in terms of car for buck
- the car's user interface was considerably better than the Jag. The 360 degree reversing camera is a sight to behold. The Jag had nothing as good. This is the stuff that sways decisions.
What was the F-Pace better at?
- handling. Way way better. The F-Pace is a fabulous steer.
- looks. I love the XC60's looks (ours is metallic red) but the Jaguar is gorgeous.
In the end it came down to pricing and the driving environment. The Volvo feels and looks superior. It's an okay drive, but this is an SUV, not an MX5. I don't look to scrape the door handles while driving Pooch to the nearest park. The price was about £150/month cheaper too - that's significant.
Jaguar, much more than Land Rover, need to seriously up their game in terms of interior quality and style. The XE has a great chassis and drives brilliantly (I llke the looks too) but it's interior really is low rent. No flair. Audi are way better in terms of presentation and "feel". That stuff sells cars, I would have paid that premium if the car felt premium - but it didn't.
I agree with the points about reliance on diesels, but the comment on the i-Pace being rubbish? Really? Nonsense! It sold 2,300 in the NL alone in December - outselling the Tesla models by some margin, The Audi's e-Tron is a fugly girning blob by comparison. It's Jaguar's future - or the beginning of it. Old Jags had grace, space and pace. So too does the i-Pace.
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