RE: Jaguar Land Rover facing "perfect storm"
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
I know, but i sat in a meeting with senior JLR managers and Product Development people way back in, oh, about 2006 and suggested that a modular approach was necessary for scaleability. However the response was "we are JLR, we do V8s" Same with the AJ133 developed in 2008/9, at that time they knew the germans were developing turbocharged hotside V engines, but again the "JLR uses superchargers" response was made. Today they are paying the price of that lack of vision and lethargy.
(and they have spent an absolute fortune on Ingenium diesels, trying to catch up the 10 years they were behind the Germans, only to find that by the time they catch up (not ready yet...) they are in fact virtually obsolete.......)
(and they have spent an absolute fortune on Ingenium diesels, trying to catch up the 10 years they were behind the Germans, only to find that by the time they catch up (not ready yet...) they are in fact virtually obsolete.......)
Welcome to the UK.
Brexit is going to be a disaster but we are going to carry on regardless.
Jimbo89 said:
Ahhhhhh here we go again. What is it about the British public (especially PH's) and their absolute determination to see JLR ruined? 
Any mention of problems at JLR and the media make sure to jump on it and bash it 'til its dead. Reading into the detail this is just a hiccup due to the big drop in sales in China and mostly falls to Jaguar, which as a brand has been held up by LR sales for a couple of years now as their models have aged and become less profitable. Hopefully the i-Pace architecture can help to turn that around. LR sales outside China look really good.
But of course, Land Rovers are unreliable because I knew a guy 15 years ago that had one 4th hand and it never worked right and they're too expensive becuase I don't like this new trend for PCP deals and the Evoque is crap because it sold lots and that's not what Land Rovers should be about. They should go back to selling 3 sheep wagons a year that'll be kept running with spit and kleenex for at least 25 years.
I dont think anyone would want to see them fail, and I can appreciate they sell what people want while making good profits, rather than churning out farmers hacks. But you have gone too far the other way - reliability is a huge issue. Currently I have two friends that have year old Range Rover Vogue / Sports and neither have them at the moment due to several quality issues (One requiring a new engine) under warranty. I hope Jaguars are better, I do like the look of some of them but when asking premium money for a product it should be premium quality. Its nice to be patriotic and all that, but sadly i understand why people might be wary. So maybe it isnt the british public and PHers you should be disappointed in.Any mention of problems at JLR and the media make sure to jump on it and bash it 'til its dead. Reading into the detail this is just a hiccup due to the big drop in sales in China and mostly falls to Jaguar, which as a brand has been held up by LR sales for a couple of years now as their models have aged and become less profitable. Hopefully the i-Pace architecture can help to turn that around. LR sales outside China look really good.
But of course, Land Rovers are unreliable because I knew a guy 15 years ago that had one 4th hand and it never worked right and they're too expensive becuase I don't like this new trend for PCP deals and the Evoque is crap because it sold lots and that's not what Land Rovers should be about. They should go back to selling 3 sheep wagons a year that'll be kept running with spit and kleenex for at least 25 years.
1974foggy said:
I dont think anyone would want to see them fail, and I can appreciate they sell what people want while making good profits, rather than churning out farmers hacks. But you have gone too far the other way - reliability is a huge issue. Currently I have two friends that have year old Range Rover Vogue / Sports and neither have them at the moment due to several quality issues (One requiring a new engine) under warranty. I hope Jaguars are better, I do like the look of some of them but when asking premium money for a product it should be premium quality. Its nice to be patriotic and all that, but sadly i understand why people might be wary. So maybe it isnt the british public and PHers you should be disappointed in.
It's not an excuse, but the whole automotive industry seems to be struggling with quality issues at the moment. My Focus RS had a new engine (along with a good percentage of others), a friends Gen 2 GT3 had it's top end go along with reports of quite a few others now and another friends M2 had to have a completely new windscreen after a year as it was creaking! There's also plenty of reports of electrical and engine issues across many brands if you look. It seems like the constant push for new technology and decreased emissions is really stretching the capability of a lot of automotive engineering companies.Jimbo89 said:
But of course, Land Rovers are unreliable because I knew a guy 15 years ago that had one 4th hand and it never worked right and they're too expensive becuase I don't like this new trend for PCP deals and the Evoque is crap because it sold lots and that's not what Land Rovers should be about. They should go back to selling 3 sheep wagons a year that'll be kept running with spit and kleenex for at least 25 years.
Well I do have good mate who binned his Evoque last year due to chronic transmission faults which the dealer couldn't resolve. He swore (profusely) never to buy JLR again and did his best to warn me off my XF. Unsuccessfully - time will tell if I should have listened to him.minimoog said:
Jimbo89 said:
But of course, Land Rovers are unreliable because I knew a guy 15 years ago that had one 4th hand and it never worked right and they're too expensive becuase I don't like this new trend for PCP deals and the Evoque is crap because it sold lots and that's not what Land Rovers should be about. They should go back to selling 3 sheep wagons a year that'll be kept running with spit and kleenex for at least 25 years.
Well I do have good mate who binned his Evoque last year due to chronic transmission faults which the dealer couldn't resolve. He swore (profusely) never to buy JLR again and did his best to warn me off my XF. Unsuccessfully - time will tell if I should have listened to him.RacerMike said:
Best hope he doesn't buy anything with that 9 speed transmission then.....it wasn't confined to LR product https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018/chrysler-9...
He looked to the East for his next car. I'm assuming the 9spd is the same as in the ePace I had for a couple of weeks - it was horrible even when working correctly.minimoog said:
RacerMike said:
Best hope he doesn't buy anything with that 9 speed transmission then.....it wasn't confined to LR product https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018/chrysler-9...
He looked to the East for his next car. I'm assuming the 9spd is the same as in the ePace I had for a couple of weeks - it was horrible even when working correctly.My 2p..... Following a few ruinous years of running a FFRR (322), it wouldn't bother me if I never had to visit another Land Rover Dealer or Independent ever in my life, to be gouged for yet more money fixing something that shouldn't have broken in the first place.
(If money was no object, then yes, of course I'd have another, along with the help to keep the fleet running).
(If money was no object, then yes, of course I'd have another, along with the help to keep the fleet running).
Don1 said:
My 2p..... Following a few ruinous years of running a FFRR (322), it wouldn't bother me if I never had to visit another Land Rover Dealer or Independent ever in my life, to be gouged for yet more money fixing something that shouldn't have broken in the first place.
(If money was no object, then yes, of course I'd have another, along with the help to keep the fleet running).
L322 is a very old legacy product though, and is in no way indicative of anything post Ford. The 322 was in-fact a BMW product that was costed down by Ford with little appreciation for why anything was the way it was, and then developed on a shoestring throughout it's later years.(If money was no object, then yes, of course I'd have another, along with the help to keep the fleet running).
RJG46 said:
Max_Torque said:
I know, but i sat in a meeting with senior JLR managers and Product Development people way back in, oh, about 2006 and suggested that a modular approach was necessary for scaleability. However the response was "we are JLR, we do V8s" Same with the AJ133 developed in 2008/9, at that time they knew the germans were developing turbocharged hotside V engines, but again the "JLR uses superchargers" response was made. Today they are paying the price of that lack of vision and lethargy.
(and they have spent an absolute fortune on Ingenium diesels, trying to catch up the 10 years they were behind the Germans, only to find that by the time they catch up (not ready yet...) they are in fact virtually obsolete.......)
(and they have spent an absolute fortune on Ingenium diesels, trying to catch up the 10 years they were behind the Germans, only to find that by the time they catch up (not ready yet...) they are in fact virtually obsolete.......)
Welcome to the UK.
Brexit is going to be a disaster but we are going to carry on regardless.
In their June 2018 Investor Day presentation it was clear that JLR is, at least now, committed to a modular strategy across its range, seeking to differentiate otherwise shared engineering technology and components by brand and vehicle type. This is not exactly a new idea - it was pioneered by Alfred Sloan when he was running GM back in the 1920s. But for Midlands based car companies like Jaguar, Rover and Triumph it was a hard pill to swallow when they were thrown together in the succession of mergers that resulted in the formation of British Leyland at the effective direction of the Harold Wilson government of the day. So hard that it never happened. Jaguar has survived, I suspect, only because of the brand loyalty of its successive owners, the latest being Rajan Tata. Right now Jaguar must be in a dreadful position. XE and XF saloon car sales are flagging and must be far below expectations. Two of its latest products the E Pace and the I Pace are made in Austria under licence, which must be the expensive option; and the I Pace is built on yet another unique platform. It is as yet unclear which new Jaguar products will get the nod for future development. But it is surely clear there will have been significant weeding of the range going forward as JLR is short of time, cash and markets to make the adaptations that unknown and uncertain future regulatory and consumer trends will demand. This uncertainty is, of course, shared by all car manufacturers.
Chestrockwell said:
People were shocked to see Syrian Refugees carrying IPhones and IPads etc, iphones are expensive and are definitely a premium product. My iPhone X cost a grand but I’ve got it on a contract at 55 pound a month. Just because everybody has one, doesn’t make it any less ‘premium’.
I live in Surrey and every other car is a BMW/Mini/Audi/Merc here so it seems like they’re easily accessible due to PCP but when you venture to poorer areas, you really do notice the difference. I went to a wedding in Harringay north London, I saw hardly any ‘premium’ cars but when I did, it would be an AMG/M car of some sort driven by a dodgey looking person at full throttle.
I went to Manchester back in December, drove through Oldham, same thing but worse.
Ooohhh, will have to gently pull you up on some points there! I live in Surrey and every other car is a BMW/Mini/Audi/Merc here so it seems like they’re easily accessible due to PCP but when you venture to poorer areas, you really do notice the difference. I went to a wedding in Harringay north London, I saw hardly any ‘premium’ cars but when I did, it would be an AMG/M car of some sort driven by a dodgey looking person at full throttle.
I went to Manchester back in December, drove through Oldham, same thing but worse.
Harringay or Haringey? Haringey has some of the most expensive property in the country! Highgate has mansions galore; even Usmanov has to fork out best part of £50m to live there.
As for Harringay, average three beds on ‘the Ladder’ are cooking about 800-950k easily. The smart young middle class couple types in the last decade were picking up Victorian terraces in parts like this, doing them up, watch them shoulderbarge in value up to nearly a million, then when the sprogs hit three or four, sell out, then spend that on a £1.2m gaffe with huge lawn in Godalming or wherever.
Long live London house prices
As for Surrey, after playing football all across the county for years, I came away thinking half the place was full of 1930’s two up two down council estates with builders vans scattered on grass verges and St. George’s flags waving everywhere. Cobham McMansions comparatively rare! Generalisations eh?!
As for Syrian refugees, how do you know they might not be well off Turkish Cypriots who’ve lived here for 35yrs, owning three restaurants on Green Lanes, and the G63 AMG just gets lent out to his lazy son so he can impress his mates on Friday night? Unless you know, you just don’t know...
Can’t comment on Manchester, but surely the constant drizzle kills anyone’s mood.
Totally accept your point on PCP etc. The UK is not alone; the West is awash in cheap credit, and historically low interest rates from the US to Germany. The ECBs refinancing rate hit 0.0% recently. The 2007 subprime contagion erupting out of Little Rock, Arkansas or Tucson, has just transmuted itself into cheap car loans and the like. We’re post the usual 7-year financial correction.
Maybe the fertility of women is inextricably linked to the macroeconomic cycle, and with 30yo guys still playing with Big Traks and skateboards, the world is in a longer loop than previous generations....and at some end point of it all, JLR just needs to swim harder against the tide than the rest
oldtimer2 said:
After Ford sold Jaguar and Land Rover to Tata I assume they parted with a limited period contract for the continued supply of engines. I imagine there were engineering and commercial reasons not to continue to be reliant on Ford for engine supplies - hence the Ingenium programme. JLR has stated that this is a modular range of 3, 4 and 6 cylinder engines all sharing the same 500cc cylinder. The add ons are also modular, but adapted to the different cylinder configurations. We have yet to see the 3 and 6 cylinder versions. The VW scandal and the political response (to demonise the diesel engine) were probably not anticipated when the decision to push ahead with the Ingenium range was made.
In their June 2018 Investor Day presentation it was clear that JLR is, at least now, committed to a modular strategy across its range, seeking to differentiate otherwise shared engineering technology and components by brand and vehicle type. This is not exactly a new idea - it was pioneered by Alfred Sloan when he was running GM back in the 1920s. But for Midlands based car companies like Jaguar, Rover and Triumph it was a hard pill to swallow when they were thrown together in the succession of mergers that resulted in the formation of British Leyland at the effective direction of the Harold Wilson government of the day. So hard that it never happened. Jaguar has survived, I suspect, only because of the brand loyalty of its successive owners, the latest being Rajan Tata. Right now Jaguar must be in a dreadful position. XE and XF saloon car sales are flagging and must be far below expectations. Two of its latest products the E Pace and the I Pace are made in Austria under licence, which must be the expensive option; and the I Pace is built on yet another unique platform. It is as yet unclear which new Jaguar products will get the nod for future development. But it is surely clear there will have been significant weeding of the range going forward as JLR is short of time, cash and markets to make the adaptations that unknown and uncertain future regulatory and consumer trends will demand. This uncertainty is, of course, shared by all car manufacturers.
Great post, and many interesting points to chew upon.In their June 2018 Investor Day presentation it was clear that JLR is, at least now, committed to a modular strategy across its range, seeking to differentiate otherwise shared engineering technology and components by brand and vehicle type. This is not exactly a new idea - it was pioneered by Alfred Sloan when he was running GM back in the 1920s. But for Midlands based car companies like Jaguar, Rover and Triumph it was a hard pill to swallow when they were thrown together in the succession of mergers that resulted in the formation of British Leyland at the effective direction of the Harold Wilson government of the day. So hard that it never happened. Jaguar has survived, I suspect, only because of the brand loyalty of its successive owners, the latest being Rajan Tata. Right now Jaguar must be in a dreadful position. XE and XF saloon car sales are flagging and must be far below expectations. Two of its latest products the E Pace and the I Pace are made in Austria under licence, which must be the expensive option; and the I Pace is built on yet another unique platform. It is as yet unclear which new Jaguar products will get the nod for future development. But it is surely clear there will have been significant weeding of the range going forward as JLR is short of time, cash and markets to make the adaptations that unknown and uncertain future regulatory and consumer trends will demand. This uncertainty is, of course, shared by all car manufacturers.
Alfred Sloan - that’s a name. Remember mentioning him, GM and the rest within my dissertation
Edited by tigerkoi on Monday 14th January 16:36
oldtimer2 said:
The VW scandal and the political response (to demonise the diesel engine) were probably not anticipated when the decision to push ahead with the Ingenium range was made.
The VW scandal hastened the turn against diesel but I think the writing had been on the wall for a good while.However, I wonder how many millions were wasted trying to make a decent engine that would beat or even meet VW's figures back when JLR didn't know it wasn't actually possible and the whole thing was a fraud?
RemyMartin81D said:
I can only surmise that Volvo's ongoing success is due to the build and fit and materials. My dad has an almost boggo V40. 2.0 diesel , no T number only real luxury is heated leather seats and I'm not exaggerating the leather in it is of a higher standard than any BMW or other German car I've ever seen. It's beautiful and very soft. If they care that much lower down the order it's no wonder people buy them.
People are simple other than petrol heads, no one wants performance. People want luxury and reliability at a sensible cost.
Also must have competive lease deals too.
I looked over the new saloon (S60?) at Brussels airport recently and it's an astounding bit of kit. The build quality, paint finish, panel gaps and interior are incredibly good. Thankfully PAG didn't manage to completely fPeople are simple other than petrol heads, no one wants performance. People want luxury and reliability at a sensible cost.
Also must have competive lease deals too.
k up Volvo and it lives to fight another day. iSore said:
RemyMartin81D said:
I can only surmise that Volvo's ongoing success is due to the build and fit and materials. My dad has an almost boggo V40. 2.0 diesel , no T number only real luxury is heated leather seats and I'm not exaggerating the leather in it is of a higher standard than any BMW or other German car I've ever seen. It's beautiful and very soft. If they care that much lower down the order it's no wonder people buy them.
People are simple other than petrol heads, no one wants performance. People want luxury and reliability at a sensible cost.
Also must have competive lease deals too.
I looked over the new saloon (S60?) at Brussels airport recently and it's an astounding bit of kit. The build quality, paint finish, panel gaps and interior are incredibly good. Thankfully PAG didn't manage to completely fPeople are simple other than petrol heads, no one wants performance. People want luxury and reliability at a sensible cost.
Also must have competive lease deals too.
k up Volvo and it lives to fight another day. iSore said:
I looked over the new saloon (S60?) at Brussels airport recently and it's an astounding bit of kit. The build quality, paint finish, panel gaps and interior are incredibly good. Thankfully PAG didn't manage to completely fk up Volvo and it lives to fight another day.
TBF to FoMoCo Volvo wasn't one half as fk up Volvo and it lives to fight another day. ked as Jaguar at the time of purchase. They'd just launched the P2 platform cars, a platform which went on to form the basis of every major Ford model for the next 10+ years. Jaguar were selling the XJ40 and XJS, with a broken down stty factory, and only pipe dreams and fairy tales in the new product cabinet. I imagine Uncle Henry had a lot more cause to stick his oar in at Jaguar than at Volvo!Edited by dme123 on Wednesday 16th January 20:33
dme123 said:
TBF to FoMoCo Volvo wasn't one half as fked as Jaguar at the time of purchase. They'd just launched the P2 platform cars, a platform which went on to form the basis of every major Ford model for the next 10+ years. Jaguar were selling the XJ40 and XJS, with a broken down stty factory, and only pipe dreams and fairy tales in the new product cabinet. I imagine Uncle Henry had a lot more cause to stick his oar in at Jaguar than at Volvo!
Ford money developed the XF, launched not long after it was sold to Tata. Even so, it was based on the S Type floorpan.ked as Jaguar at the time of purchase. They'd just launched the P2 platform cars, a platform which went on to form the basis of every major Ford model for the next 10+ years. Jaguar were selling the XJ40 and XJS, with a broken down stty factory, and only pipe dreams and fairy tales in the new product cabinet. I imagine Uncle Henry had a lot more cause to stick his oar in at Jaguar than at Volvo!Edited by dme123 on Wednesday 16th January 20:33
iSore said:
Ford money developed the XF, launched not long after it was sold to Tata. Even so, it was based on the S Type floorpan.
Jaguar always do better with the second outing of a car it seems. XJ40 refined into X300, S-Type into XF, X350 to X351!Maybe the next iteration of the current XE/XF will be good, once current buyers sort out the kinks
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