RE: Jaguar Land Rover facing "perfect storm"

[TWPC]

camel_landy said:

suffolk009 said:

It all went wrong when they hire Victoria Beckham. I'm not suggesting that she is responsible for any of the woes, but if a car company resorts to hiring Victoria as a consultant, there's trouble ahead.

I suspect she was there for the photo/product placement and I'd be surprised if she had any actual input into the design process.

M

Don't know about it all going wrong, but it has certainly all changed for JLR. They hired Victoria Beckham in July 2010 and launched the Evoque in mid-2011.
In 2010, Land Rover sold 181,395 vehicles and in 2016 (latest data on Wikipedia) 434,582...

[camel_landy]

vikingaero said:

suffolk009 said:

camel_landy said:

suffolk009 said:

It all went wrong when they hire Victoria Beckham. I'm not suggesting that she is responsible for any of the woes, but if a car company resorts to hiring Victoria as a consultant, there's trouble ahead.

I suspect she was there for the photo/product placement and I'd be surprised if she had any actual input into the design process.

M

Oh, I'm sure you're right. But to claim that she was, and then have her photos all over it, that's the problem.

JLR stretched the truth on VB's (non) involvement.

ISTR not so long ago, Gerry McGovern got a little pissy on the subject of VB's design input.

M

[LimaDelta]

Kierkegaard said:

You also can't, unfortunately, choose who you sell your cars to and the current trend of expensive cars painted in lurid colours with dark wheels in 'footballer spec' again are victims of all brands.. just look at Bentley and Aston Martin.

Actually, you can. Stop offering cheap lease deals and PCP with artificially high balloon payments.

Even a Bentley Bentayga, a £150,000 car can be had for only £1300 a month! The £60k deposit could be borrowed and repaid at about £1000/month so one could be driving around in a monster SUV Bentley for less than £2.5k per month! How is even that aspirational anymore? All of these 'brands' are selling out with their accessibility.

Maybe it is not the manufacturers fault, I guess money is just cheap these days.

Edited by LimaDelta on Thursday 10th January 14:56

[camel_landy]

TWPC said:

camel_landy said:

suffolk009 said:

It all went wrong when they hire Victoria Beckham. I'm not suggesting that she is responsible for any of the woes, but if a car company resorts to hiring Victoria as a consultant, there's trouble ahead.

I suspect she was there for the photo/product placement and I'd be surprised if she had any actual input into the design process.

M

Don't know about it all going wrong, but it has certainly all changed for JLR. They hired Victoria Beckham in July 2010 and launched the Evoque in mid-2011.
In 2010, Land Rover sold 181,395 vehicles and in 2016 (latest data on Wikipedia) 434,582...

Indeed... IMO - They did well with the Evoque and opened up a new market for themselves by targeting the younger market.

M

[Krikkit]

suffolk009 said:

It all went wrong when they hire Victoria Beckham. I'm not suggesting that she is responsible for any of the woes, but if a car company resorts to hiring Victoria as a consultant, there's trouble ahead.

I disagree - it was a sign of their commitment to modernising what was, at the time, a brand struggling to shake off its whiff of old man's golf club and become more progressive.

Without it JLR would have gone under (and particularly Jaguar) a long time ago. The XF and the X351 XJ were absolutely vital.

[smig12345]

GAFF1974 said:

The British obsession with all things German doesn't help. Even the police don't "drive the flag".

(Yes I know they're owned by TATA but it's as close as you'll get)

True and true. If Jag goes up for sale I'd personally like to see it back in British hands (it would be nice to have even 1 of our car manufacturers in our own hands) and supported by the government (police, etc.).

[smig12345]

J4CKO said:

Sadly, I dont think the traditional premium saloon is a big seller, neither is the coupe and convertible and they need volume, they make SUV's and they seem to sell ok but largely they are competing with the LR side of their business.

I don't think that is strictly true though J4CKO as the German 3 (Audi, Merc, BMW) prove with the A4, 3 series, 5 series, C class, E class, etc.

[WJNB]

No surprise just surprise it's taken this long.
Too many diesels.
Range Rovers becoming too common & so very vulgar,
Saloons that are not remotely a match for BMW/Audi/Mercedes.
A two-seater sports car that is far too big & clunky, has a pokey cramped interior & overpriced. Porsche must be saying a big thank you.
The company 'ain't even British any more.

[J4CKO]

Todd Bonzalez said:

wsn03 said:

When I see an Evoque I see pretentious loser who cant afford a Range Rover but thinks he's big time leasing a silly little box on 4 wheels.

Says a lot more about you than them tbh you absolute weirdo.

Yeah, that is a weird outlook, not everyone wants the absolute biggest and most expensive, a FFRR is a magnificent way to travel but is enormous. I have a relative who can have any JLR product they want being high up in JLR and gets a new one every six months, anything from the JLR catalog and doesnt always choose a FFRR, his partner prefers the Discovery as its less ostentatious and a bit smaller.

Try and park a FFRR then an Evoque.

then there is the image, the Evoque has a younger, funkier image than the FFRR which is a bit more middle aged and a bit stuffier.

[Cold]

TWPC said:

camel_landy said:

suffolk009 said:

It all went wrong when they hire Victoria Beckham. I'm not suggesting that she is responsible for any of the woes, but if a car company resorts to hiring Victoria as a consultant, there's trouble ahead.

I suspect she was there for the photo/product placement and I'd be surprised if she had any actual input into the design process.

M

Don't know about it all going wrong, but it has certainly all changed for JLR. They hired Victoria Beckham in July 2010 and launched the Evoque in mid-2011.
In 2010, Land Rover sold 181,395 vehicles and in 2016 (latest data on Wikipedia) 434,582...

Yep, the first gen Evoque sold 800,000 units in seven years. Where did it all go wrong? If only VB hadn't been involved it might have been a sales success.

[ettore]

There seems to be a tremendous amount of guff being spouted in here. JLR is not in short-term danger of failing despite the last sentence of the article! The detail is there to be seen:

1) Stuffed by China - this is mainly a short term market issue (beyond some fixable issues with their network) that has affected all of the OEMS. Impact with JLR is more profound from a cashflow standpoint because a high proportion of what's sold in China are highly spec'd and deeply profitable RR's and RRS's. If you look at the reports from the German firms its the expensive end of their product lineup that's up the spout too. This will correct itself at some point but nonetheless has blown a hole in the revenue. UK and US markets are still very strong and Europe is ok too.

2) Jaguar saloons - simply haven't resonated in the market and are nowhere near the planned volumes. Platform and core tech' is good but there are issues around InfoTech, interior design/quality and breadth of powertrain/bodystyle. Jaguar SUV's are good and justifiable but not the ultimate brand answer bearing in mind the sister brands. iPace is a wonderful thing, inside and out (it really is!), and surely shows the ultimate answer. F-type is perfectly profitable and sells in good volume for what it is.

3) Quality - clearly warranty costs are higher than they need be but are not as bad as the bullsh@t on here would suggest. Another issue shared with their competitors currently as well...Cars have become very complicated things and most issues (in the real world) are relatively minor and increasingly universal. Have a look at a used Tesla for fun.

3) Diesel - breadth of drivetrain probably an issue but I think overstated in relation to the current results. Strikes me as more of a future issue and possibly a lobbying point. Investment in petrol, hybrid and electric obvious to see and presumably the R&D spend they're looking to protect.

4) Capacity - they were originally constrained by production capacity and now they have too much - suspect more to hear about this as the above points are addressed (or not).

JLR have made some slightly suspect calls (but they've also got a lot right) - many of the issues are the result of rapid and relatively unconstrained expansion. The key is to take the medicine now and be bold about the future.

[McFarnsworth]

I live outside the UK, but very near to one of a handful of JLR dealers in the country. Despite the actual dealer having a rather good reputation, I don't know a single person who has been, or will be, a repeat JLR customer.
Anecdotal, and a small sample size of course, but to me it says a lot really.

[wsn03]

J4CKO said:

Todd Bonzalez said:

wsn03 said:

When I see an Evoque I see pretentious loser who cant afford a Range Rover but thinks he's big time leasing a silly little box on 4 wheels.

Says a lot more about you than them tbh you absolute weirdo.

Yeah, that is a weird outlook, not everyone wants the absolute biggest and most expensive, a FFRR is a magnificent way to travel but is enormous. I have a relative who can have any JLR product they want being high up in JLR and gets a new one every six months, anything from the JLR catalog and doesnt always choose a FFRR, his partner prefers the Discovery as its less ostentatious and a bit smaller.

Try and park a FFRR then an Evoque.

then there is the image, the Evoque has a younger, funkier image than the FFRR which is a bit more middle aged and a bit stuffier.

Putting aside Todd the Keyboard warrior's odd retort, my point is the cheapenning of the Range Rover brand. I come across so many Evoque owners who buy one just because they want to say they have a Range Rover. I meet more who think they're financially superior than who are just after the car for its features. They tend to fall into a certain stereotype the type that would want to follow Victoria Beckham all tbe way.

They are however comparatively cheap.
That kills the exclusive aspect for Range Rover owners.

I used to see Range Rovers and Jags as the preserve of the rich and successful. Now I don't. Does that long term hurt the brand? Probably.

If I was JLR I would have kept it smaller, more niche and more profitable with a very serious focus on quality

[Bohemianesque]

Poor leadership and strategy. And that is what the guys at the top are paid a lot to do. Funny how some companies (Volvo, Lexus etc are navigating the challenges more effectively)...

[troika]

jason61c said:

Surely part of the problem is that they just make cars of well below average quality?

They have loads of build quality and reliability issues, poor residuals as a result, why would people want to buy them?

This. My fathers 2017 DS is currently at LR with its engine out. A few days before it went in, the whole cabin fan / air system stopped working. It’s a complete pile of overpriced rubbish.

[Big GT]

The 5000 Job takes them down to the employment level of 2014-2015. Unwelcome but not a disaster.

JLR need a hybrid for company car owners

At the end of last year I needed a new car. I wanted an XF. It was the best out of all the competitors. The new 2016+ model with all aluminium monocoque makes the XF the best drivers car in its class. Also inside and out it was my favourite.

However due to the governments diesel BIK and tax hike I didn't want to pay around £400 in tax a month.

So I ended up with a 530e hybrid. While its a very good car I wish it could of been the XF.

Sad

[Todd Bonzalez]

wsn03 said:

Putting aside Todd the Keyboard warrior's odd retort, my point is the cheapenning of the Range Rover brand. I come across so many Evoque owners who buy one just because they want to say they have a Range Rover. I meet more who think they're financially superior than who are just after the car for its features. They tend to fall into a certain stereotype the type that would want to follow Victoria Beckham all tbe way.

They are however comparatively cheap.
That kills the exclusive aspect for Range Rover owners.

I used to see Range Rovers and Jags as the preserve of the rich and successful. Now I don't. Does that long term hurt the brand? Probably.

If I was JLR I would have kept it smaller, more niche and more profitable with a very serious focus on quality

It's not an odd retort. The Evoque is a very well designed product, and the interior of the new one is pretty amazing. When the evoque came out it was groundbreaking stylistically and sold very well.

You are the person who decided they're all "pretentious" and "losers" and "think they're bigtime." Absolute fruit loop pal.

[Haltamer]

It's a shame Jag don't diversify from the Diesel saloon model - I think they need to.

As someone else mentioned, some sports coupes (cheaper than their existing offering) for some larger market appeal, a-la MX5, and even a hatchback would be interesting to see.

[anonymous-user]

J4CKO said:

Todd Bonzalez said:

wsn03 said:

When I see an Evoque I see pretentious loser who cant afford a Range Rover but thinks he's big time leasing a silly little box on 4 wheels.

Says a lot more about you than them tbh you absolute weirdo.

Yeah, that is a weird outlook, not everyone wants the absolute biggest and most expensive, a FFRR is a magnificent way to travel but is enormous. I have a relative who can have any JLR product they want being high up in JLR and gets a new one every six months, anything from the JLR catalog and doesnt always choose a FFRR, his partner prefers the Discovery as its less ostentatious and a bit smaller.

Try and park a FFRR then an Evoque.

then there is the image, the Evoque has a younger, funkier image than the FFRR which is a bit more middle aged and a bit stuffier.

Right, so the two (one real, one hypothetical) LR buyers you've highlighted there do care what others think of their purchase..so is wsn03 within his right to judge the drivers as they've made their decision based on 'what other people think'?

[adamcot]

wsn03 said:

If I was JLR I would have kept it smaller, more niche and more profitable with a very serious focus on quality

Then the price has to increase respectively. Why do you think a Bentayga is more expensive than a Range Rover? It's not down to profit, it's down to volumes. To get payback on investment in a modern vehicle development programme, you either need volume or high selling prices. Bentley have a business model and brand that can demand a much higher selling price. The Range Rover brand wouldn't sustain the pricing that Bentley could as the brand doesn't carry the same perceived value.

For me, the Government has a lot to answer for here, demonising the diesel engine unfairly without fully understanding the facts. JLR have also reacted too slowly to the advancement of Hybrid systems - they have MHEV systems in development but these should already be on vehicles. It's very sad for the people employed at Gaydon and Whitley. My best wishes to those affected and I hope they find new roles quickly.