RE: Jaguar Land Rover facing "perfect storm"
Discussion
Ray_Aber said:
E-Pace - good: sporty and attractive. I cannot comment on quality
Can't agree with the 'good' bit. I had one on loan for a fortnight - the 250bhp petrol - and I couldn't wait to get out of it. Gruff, harsh engine that didn't seem to want to rev, jerky and intrusive autobox, jiggly and pitchy ride (ok a product of the form factor but still unpleasant), and no more than average interior quality. The steering was ok but that was about it.I recently had an XE for a few days too. It had 7K on it and felt about 50% shagged out and the interior was awful. My 6yo XF on 50K feels brand new in comparison.
Haltamer said:
It's a shame Jag don't diversify from the Diesel saloon model - I think they need to.
As someone else mentioned, some sports coupes (cheaper than their existing offering) for some larger market appeal, a-la MX5, and even a hatchback would be interesting to see.
I disagree, it is this all-things-to-all-men approach which is responsible for the dilution of brands now. Jaguar should have stuck to the high performance saloon sector, and LR to the farm/estate owner market. They are trying to emulate the German brands with every type of vehicle in their product range. Personally that limits their appeal. They should find their niche and stick with it, not sell out by trying to be a mass-market manufacturer.As someone else mentioned, some sports coupes (cheaper than their existing offering) for some larger market appeal, a-la MX5, and even a hatchback would be interesting to see.
adamcot said:
Then the price has to increase respectively. Why do you think a Bentayga is more expensive than a Range Rover? It's not down to profit, it's down to volumes. To get payback on investment in a modern vehicle development programme, you either need volume or high selling prices. Bentley have a business model and brand that can demand a much higher selling price. The Range Rover brand wouldn't sustain the pricing that Bentley could as the brand doesn't carry the same perceived value.
Not only this, but haven't Bentley struggled to get ANY profit the last few years? Edit: "Bentley lost 137 million euros in the first nine months of 2018"
Big GT said:
However due to the governments diesel BIK and tax hike I didn't want to pay around £400 in tax a month.
So I ended up with a 530e hybrid. While its a very good car I wish it could of been the XF.
Sad
I had the same problem but thought, sod it you only live once, and got a petrol XF as a company car........loving every minute of it. So I ended up with a 530e hybrid. While its a very good car I wish it could of been the XF.
Sad
Todd Bonzalez said:
adamcot said:
Then the price has to increase respectively. Why do you think a Bentayga is more expensive than a Range Rover? It's not down to profit, it's down to volumes. To get payback on investment in a modern vehicle development programme, you either need volume or high selling prices. Bentley have a business model and brand that can demand a much higher selling price. The Range Rover brand wouldn't sustain the pricing that Bentley could as the brand doesn't carry the same perceived value.
Not only this, but haven't Bentley struggled to get ANY profit the last few years? Edit: "Bentley lost 137 million euros in the first nine months of 2018"
Haltamer said:
It's a shame Jag don't diversify from the Diesel saloon model - I think they need to.
As someone else mentioned, some sports coupes (cheaper than their existing offering) for some larger market appeal, a-la MX5, and even a hatchback would be interesting to see.
The choice of a British made C-segment hatch would be great, as would an MX5 or GT86 sized sports car (for similar money) - but do JLR have the engines (the Ingenium would be good for the higher spec models but they need a base petrol engine, with c150bhp) & don't have the platforms either. As someone else mentioned, some sports coupes (cheaper than their existing offering) for some larger market appeal, a-la MX5, and even a hatchback would be interesting to see.
Alternatively - could JLR become the British Porsche? SUVs, sports cars & BEVs?
Todd Bonzalez said:
Not only this, but haven't Bentley struggled to get ANY profit the last few years?
Edit: "Bentley lost 137 million euros in the first nine months of 2018"
They did, but that was down to high investment in new models and a very delayed launch of the new Continental GT. I would suggest that will reverse in 2019.Edit: "Bentley lost 137 million euros in the first nine months of 2018"
On the Jaguar side.
For any company to bet the house on 4 cylinder diesel engines and simply cease offering any 6 or 8 cylinder engines in its saloon cars, at a time when it has been obvious for years that diesel was going to go into massive decline smacks of mismanagement.
For that company to be the one that once promised pace and grace, and built most of its reputation on 6 and 12 cylinder engines is crazy.
I can forgive the bland-ish looks because it seems modern cars must be bland or fugly, and I'd rather it wasn't the latter. The XF mk2 could have been a Toyota from the side though. We could do with a bit more style.
And there is simply no excuse for the ordinaryness of the interiors. When BMWs handled better and Mercedes Benzes were better-built, Jaguars always had them absolutely nailed on interior ambience. They were simply a much nicer and more special place to be. People bought them with their hearts even if their heads weren't quite in agreement.
As with the Jaguar engine lineup, on the LR side there also seems to be a policy of killing products without replacing them, and leaving the market to the competition. Ending production of the Defender before the replacement is ready: how was that remotely sensible? LR means nothing without the Defender. And if it's another blinged up chav chariot instead of a proper successor then they will have wasted that goodwill too.
For any company to bet the house on 4 cylinder diesel engines and simply cease offering any 6 or 8 cylinder engines in its saloon cars, at a time when it has been obvious for years that diesel was going to go into massive decline smacks of mismanagement.
For that company to be the one that once promised pace and grace, and built most of its reputation on 6 and 12 cylinder engines is crazy.
I can forgive the bland-ish looks because it seems modern cars must be bland or fugly, and I'd rather it wasn't the latter. The XF mk2 could have been a Toyota from the side though. We could do with a bit more style.
And there is simply no excuse for the ordinaryness of the interiors. When BMWs handled better and Mercedes Benzes were better-built, Jaguars always had them absolutely nailed on interior ambience. They were simply a much nicer and more special place to be. People bought them with their hearts even if their heads weren't quite in agreement.
As with the Jaguar engine lineup, on the LR side there also seems to be a policy of killing products without replacing them, and leaving the market to the competition. Ending production of the Defender before the replacement is ready: how was that remotely sensible? LR means nothing without the Defender. And if it's another blinged up chav chariot instead of a proper successor then they will have wasted that goodwill too.
leakymanifold said:
And yet at the same time Volvo is doing swimmingly, now selling more than JLR with a much smaller portfolio of cars and even increasing its sales in China.
I have no doubt that Volvo's increase in sales in China is helped somewhat by the fact that the Chinese actually own Volvo.......wab172uk said:
I like Jaguar, but for me it main problems are:-
.....
Lack of AWD in it's cars.
Needs a Hatchback, and a couple sporty versions with AWD and manual gearboxes.
Maybe a lack of awarenes in the market......
Lack of AWD in it's cars.
Needs a Hatchback, and a couple sporty versions with AWD and manual gearboxes.
XE, XF, XJ and F-Type are all available as AWD (not in all markets though).
LimaDelta said:
Haltamer said:
It's a shame Jag don't diversify from the Diesel saloon model - I think they need to.
As someone else mentioned, some sports coupes (cheaper than their existing offering) for some larger market appeal, a-la MX5, and even a hatchback would be interesting to see.
I disagree, it is this all-things-to-all-men approach which is responsible for the dilution of brands now. Jaguar should have stuck to the high performance saloon sector, and LR to the farm/estate owner market. They are trying to emulate the German brands with every type of vehicle in their product range. Personally that limits their appeal. They should find their niche and stick with it, not sell out by trying to be a mass-market manufacturer.As someone else mentioned, some sports coupes (cheaper than their existing offering) for some larger market appeal, a-la MX5, and even a hatchback would be interesting to see.
ettore said:
LimaDelta said:
Haltamer said:
It's a shame Jag don't diversify from the Diesel saloon model - I think they need to.
As someone else mentioned, some sports coupes (cheaper than their existing offering) for some larger market appeal, a-la MX5, and even a hatchback would be interesting to see.
I disagree, it is this all-things-to-all-men approach which is responsible for the dilution of brands now. Jaguar should have stuck to the high performance saloon sector, and LR to the farm/estate owner market. They are trying to emulate the German brands with every type of vehicle in their product range. Personally that limits their appeal. They should find their niche and stick with it, not sell out by trying to be a mass-market manufacturer.As someone else mentioned, some sports coupes (cheaper than their existing offering) for some larger market appeal, a-la MX5, and even a hatchback would be interesting to see.
Just to give a totally biased and entirely personal view from across the pond. 
*
The diesel issue hasn't really affected us as oil burners represent a very small piece of our business. I think the V6 diesel we have is a great engine, especially in the Disco, but if we didn't have it I don't think we would sell fewer cars.
Some of the remarks here about the Evoque are mystifying. The Evoque has been a phenomenal success for LR, a massive seller on both sides of the Atlantic that successfully introduced the brand to a whole new group of buyers. Many of those were younger buyers and many have graduated to the Velar or RRS as their next car.
We saw a strong increase in LR sales from 2017 to 2018 and are forecasting similar for 2019. The current line up is strong and with new Evoque and Defender coming will get stronger. I don't understand the comments about interiors, the interior of my Velar is the match of anything German in the segment.
Sedan sales are slow as they are for everyone pretty much anywhere. I still love the XJ and wish we could sell more of them but that's just market forces. Even S Class sales are down 40% here compared to 2014. However, the F-Pace is a great car that has sold well and continues to do so. (SVR due here next month
). The E-Pace is a nice addition to the line up and we have done well with it. The I-Pace is a ground breaking vehicle that has been very well received here. I spent a week in CA with it 7 months ago and was blown away by it's capability. Most of our allocation to mid year is already sold. JLR were ahead of the curve with this car IMO and should be congratulated.
I drove F-Type's for 4 years and it's such a great car. Every time I fired up and heard that hooligan exhaust note from the V8 it bought a grin to my face and took me back to my TVR days.
It's Brilliant and it's British, how can it not make you proud? Of course the 2 seater sports car is a small market and however great a product it will only represent a relatively small sales volume.
China, Brexit and Diesel it seems to me are all fairly monumental issues. To have them all come at the same time must have been very challenging. It's awful when people lose their jobs but hopefully in the long term this will just be a glitch. TATA it seems to me are a wonderful parent who have invested hugely in a great British company. The advances since 2008 have been immense. As a Brit living abroad I always feel pride when I look at what's been achieved and the prestige that the brands both have here.
*The diesel issue hasn't really affected us as oil burners represent a very small piece of our business. I think the V6 diesel we have is a great engine, especially in the Disco, but if we didn't have it I don't think we would sell fewer cars.
Some of the remarks here about the Evoque are mystifying. The Evoque has been a phenomenal success for LR, a massive seller on both sides of the Atlantic that successfully introduced the brand to a whole new group of buyers. Many of those were younger buyers and many have graduated to the Velar or RRS as their next car.
We saw a strong increase in LR sales from 2017 to 2018 and are forecasting similar for 2019. The current line up is strong and with new Evoque and Defender coming will get stronger. I don't understand the comments about interiors, the interior of my Velar is the match of anything German in the segment.
Sedan sales are slow as they are for everyone pretty much anywhere. I still love the XJ and wish we could sell more of them but that's just market forces. Even S Class sales are down 40% here compared to 2014. However, the F-Pace is a great car that has sold well and continues to do so. (SVR due here next month
). The E-Pace is a nice addition to the line up and we have done well with it. The I-Pace is a ground breaking vehicle that has been very well received here. I spent a week in CA with it 7 months ago and was blown away by it's capability. Most of our allocation to mid year is already sold. JLR were ahead of the curve with this car IMO and should be congratulated.I drove F-Type's for 4 years and it's such a great car. Every time I fired up and heard that hooligan exhaust note from the V8 it bought a grin to my face and took me back to my TVR days.
It's Brilliant and it's British, how can it not make you proud? Of course the 2 seater sports car is a small market and however great a product it will only represent a relatively small sales volume.China, Brexit and Diesel it seems to me are all fairly monumental issues. To have them all come at the same time must have been very challenging. It's awful when people lose their jobs but hopefully in the long term this will just be a glitch. TATA it seems to me are a wonderful parent who have invested hugely in a great British company. The advances since 2008 have been immense. As a Brit living abroad I always feel pride when I look at what's been achieved and the prestige that the brands both have here.
- I work for a JLR dealer, not JLR and these are my personal views, not the views of anyone else. Blah blah blah..
Volvo is the killer comparator. Petrol or diesel, hybrids emerging, excellent reliability. Unlike Jaguar - no petrols worthy of the name, and terrible reliability.
What else does Jaguar have ?
- Dull XE, with no estate or 4WD option for winter conditions/cold countries
- Dull XF, with no estate or 4WD
- Does the XJ still exist other than in Westminster Gvt cars ?
- F Pace is too big & too expensive
- E Pace is too small & too expensive
- iPace is too early to tell, but electric-only cars are hardly mass-market at the moment & won't be for some years.
Land/Range Rovers are all far too expensive for what they are. And break down like Jags.
Top JLR Management decided long before June 2016 to increase manufacturing in lower-cost Slovakia & reduce accordingly in UK. Their problem is poor product planning, and unreliable products.
The UK JLR workforce is being shafted by Top Management's product planning & move of costs Eastwards.
Don't look at Brexit - look at Volvo.
What else does Jaguar have ?
- Dull XE, with no estate or 4WD option for winter conditions/cold countries
- Dull XF, with no estate or 4WD
- Does the XJ still exist other than in Westminster Gvt cars ?
- F Pace is too big & too expensive
- E Pace is too small & too expensive
- iPace is too early to tell, but electric-only cars are hardly mass-market at the moment & won't be for some years.
Land/Range Rovers are all far too expensive for what they are. And break down like Jags.
Top JLR Management decided long before June 2016 to increase manufacturing in lower-cost Slovakia & reduce accordingly in UK. Their problem is poor product planning, and unreliable products.
The UK JLR workforce is being shafted by Top Management's product planning & move of costs Eastwards.
Don't look at Brexit - look at Volvo.
LimaDelta said:
ettore said:
LimaDelta said:
Haltamer said:
It's a shame Jag don't diversify from the Diesel saloon model - I think they need to.
As someone else mentioned, some sports coupes (cheaper than their existing offering) for some larger market appeal, a-la MX5, and even a hatchback would be interesting to see.
I disagree, it is this all-things-to-all-men approach which is responsible for the dilution of brands now. Jaguar should have stuck to the high performance saloon sector, and LR to the farm/estate owner market. They are trying to emulate the German brands with every type of vehicle in their product range. Personally that limits their appeal. They should find their niche and stick with it, not sell out by trying to be a mass-market manufacturer.As someone else mentioned, some sports coupes (cheaper than their existing offering) for some larger market appeal, a-la MX5, and even a hatchback would be interesting to see.
I can only surmise that Volvo's ongoing success is due to the build and fit and materials. My dad has an almost boggo V40. 2.0 diesel , no T number only real luxury is heated leather seats and I'm not exaggerating the leather in it is of a higher standard than any BMW or other German car I've ever seen. It's beautiful and very soft. If they care that much lower down the order it's no wonder people buy them.
People are simple other than petrol heads, no one wants performance. People want luxury and reliability at a sensible cost.
Also must have competive lease deals too.
People are simple other than petrol heads, no one wants performance. People want luxury and reliability at a sensible cost.
Also must have competive lease deals too.
86wasagoodyear said:
What else does Jaguar have ?
- Dull XE, with no estate or 4WD option for winter conditions/cold countries
- Dull XF, with no estate or 4WD
- Does the XJ still exist other than in Westminster Gvt cars ?
No particular reason for me to defend JLR, but where does this stuff come from?- Dull XE, with no estate or 4WD option for winter conditions/cold countries
- Dull XF, with no estate or 4WD
- Does the XJ still exist other than in Westminster Gvt cars ?
XE doesn't have an estate - but it would be really small. Yes it is available AWD. I have had a couple on loan.
XF, yes there is an estate - a good size - and yes it can be AWD.
XJ, yes it exists. Due for a model change, apparently about to have an electric option.
The XJ you see in Government is the armoured version.
Edited by No ideas for a name on Thursday 10th January 17:03
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