RE: Porsche 911 Carrera S (992): Driven
Discussion
Mackofthejungle said:
Now just imagine this, but at 80% of the weight, 80% of the length, and 80% of the power. Lovely.
60% of weight and power. Length is less significant.As for whether it's a sports car or not, i suspect any serious driver who bought this would have a multi-car garage.
This is the definite sports-GT car, but needs complementing.
sidesauce said:
The sales figures will tell us if they're wrong or not, let's wait and see...
That being said, don't you think that Porsche wouldn't have very carefully questioned existing owners about what they want/don't want in a new version of a 911? If, for example, the vast majority of drivers prefer speccing PDK, why should they focus on manual cars?
Did they carefully question owners when they decided to take the manual out of the GT3? Much to the chagrin of their customers (instead putting one in the 911R??); so much so, that they had to put it back in.... That being said, don't you think that Porsche wouldn't have very carefully questioned existing owners about what they want/don't want in a new version of a 911? If, for example, the vast majority of drivers prefer speccing PDK, why should they focus on manual cars?
PDK is to make driving easy = more customers
"The latest word, coming from no less than Porsche North America CEO Klaus Zemmler, is that the German automaker will be offering manual transmissions “as long as there are customers who demand” one.
Porsche North America CEO Klaus Zemmler made those comments in a conversation with Motor Authority. According to Zemmler, the Stuttgart-based automaker was actually looking into phasing out manual transmissions on its cars before public outcry forced it to reconsider. “We were actually on a path of fading out a manual transmission, and the outcry of our customers was so loud that of course we listened and with the last GT3s…we came back with a manual,” the CEO said."
- Top Speed
sidesauce said:
I think your personal definition of a driver/enthusiast is possibly not quite what their target market is in reality.
Huh? Porsche is responsible for creating me, and many other enthusiasts, with cars like the ones below. 
They are just straying from their own formula and people are noticing. Why didn't they keep the 911 small and sporty and make another GT model like the 928? That's more market share and they can keep the 911 "undiluted".
Vee12V said:
I'd disagree. Coincidently I am a Lotus man in heart and while non GT 911s are very capable and can deliver blistering lap times, they feel distinct and just not special enough at lower speeds.
It's not because they're fast and powerful that they're automatically 'good' too. I want more feel and sense of occasion, especially at lower speeds, and that's exactly where the GT cars come in. Standard 911s just aren't that special. They're extremely capable and very fast, but just not special.
Exactly my feelings. I'm trying to decide what to spend my £100k on at this very moment. The 911 is the sensible choice - newer, more reliable, back seats for the dog / grandchildren, cheaper running costs etc etc. But somehow they dont excite in the way an older Ferrari does, and they arent distinctive like a Lotus. Too common. Too everyday.It's not because they're fast and powerful that they're automatically 'good' too. I want more feel and sense of occasion, especially at lower speeds, and that's exactly where the GT cars come in. Standard 911s just aren't that special. They're extremely capable and very fast, but just not special.
It would be a shame if we all thought the same way.
Sine Metu said:
garyhun said:
Don Colione said:
sidesauce said:
I really don't think it's correct to expect Porsche to stick to a overall specific formula as everything evolves over time.
I agree with your overall sentiments to a degree... But isn't the 911 "supposed" to be aimed at drivers and an enthusiast type market? Who asked for stuff like that emasculated gear 'lever'?To me, changes like that could hurt sales in this market - I could be wrong....
If you want a ‘drivers’ car you go for the top end GT models or Cayman/Boxster (if you can accept 4-cylinder).
A lot will still buy the base 911’s for the badge, the performance, the complete package and I’m probably one of them. For me, it’s a wonderful one-car-does-all driving machine.
It’s product differentiation at its best.
Don Colione said:
Huh? Porsche is responsible for creating me, and many other enthusiasts, with cars like the ones below.
They are just straying from their own formula and people are noticing. Why didn't they keep the 911 small and sporty and make another GT model like the 928? That's more market share and they can keep the 911 "undiluted".
When I say reality, I mean in the context of the modern era, not the 'classic' era; the populous who mostly drive 911s nowadays are not enthusiasts - they want comfort and luxury, they don't want the cars to be uncomfortable or spartan and they don't want a car that has the potential to kill them. That may well have been acceptable in the 70s and 80s but not now!They are just straying from their own formula and people are noticing. Why didn't they keep the 911 small and sporty and make another GT model like the 928? That's more market share and they can keep the 911 "undiluted".
Porsche may well the straying from the original formula but people generally do not want cars that are difficult to drive.
Also, a Carrera GT doesn't count in this discussion.
sidesauce said:
When I say reality, I mean in the context of the modern era, not the 'classic' era;
An enthusiast is an enthusiast period. Stop trying to make your argument sound correct by changing it to time eras.sidesauce said:
the populous who mostly drive 911s nowadays are not enthusiasts - they want comfort and luxury, they don't want the cars to be uncomfortable or spartan and they don't want a car that has the potential to kill them. That may well have been acceptable in the 70s and 80s but not now!
Alot of presumptions being made here. Don't buy a car if you can't drive it, and any 'supercar' has the potential to kill.sidesauce said:
Porsche may well the straying from the original formula but people generally do not want cars that are difficult to drive.
That's what "nanny" systems are for in the "modern" era. Most people here are not concerned about the car being hard to drive, but losing its lithe, nimble, dynamism - de-evolving into the GT "me too" car that it is increasingly becoming. This car has a racing pedigree!sidesauce said:
Also, a Carrera GT doesn't count in this discussion.
Oh well, I put it there to show what Porsche is capable of at its apex.I know PDK brings more customers, but they shouldn't alienate a large part of their customer base by not offering a manual. You never addressed them screwing up by removing manuals in the first place, which I provided evidence for.
Don Colione said:
An enthusiast is an enthusiast period. Stop trying to make your argument sound correct by changing it to time eras.
Yes. Because the needs and tastes of a market never, ever change. 
Don Colione said:
Alot of presumptions being made here. Don't buy a car if you can't drive it, and any 'supercar' has the potential to kill.
Name me another car that earned the nickname 'Widowmaker'.Don Colione said:
That's what "nanny" systems are for in the "modern" era. Most people here are not concerned about the car being hard to drive, but losing its lithe, nimble, dynamism - de-evolving into the GT "me too" car that it is increasingly becoming. This car has a racing pedigree!
So? The vast majority of people who buy 911s nowadays, particularly the younger generation, just don't care about racing pedigree. Bentley has racing pedigree but do people buy them for that?Don Colione said:
Oh well, I put it there to show what Porsche is capable of at its apex.
A 911 is not a Carrera GT. Stop trying to make your argument sound correct by changing the car we're discussing.Don Colione said:
I know PDK brings more customers, but they shouldn't alienate a large part of their customer base by not offering a manual. You never addressed them screwing up by removing manuals in the first place, which I provided evidence for.
Porsche sell more PDK equipped 911s than manual ones. That's all the evidence I need. They're running a business to make as much profit as possible. that's all.Edited by sidesauce on Sunday 20th January 21:40
sidesauce said:
Yes. Because the needs and tastes of a market never, ever change.
What market are you talking about? I hope its not the driving one, the one's you see 'complaining' on this thread... looks like they haven't changed yet; and they exist in the millions.sidesauce said:
Name me another car that earned the nickname 'Widowmaker'.
Lol, and? That doesn't negate my point here.sidesauce said:
So? The vast majority of people who buy 911s nowadays, particularly the younger generation, just don't care about racing pedigree. Bentley has racing pedigree but do people buy them for that?
More assumptions, and why are you changing the argument by bringing up Bentley on the 911 thread? 911 lovers are on here 'moaning' about the 911 lol...side sauce said:
A 911 is not a Carrera GT. Stop trying to make your argument sound correct by changing the car we're discussing.
I can't make an argument correct, that I didn't try to make in the first place. I merely explained to you why I put it there to begin with.side sauce said:
Porsche sell more PDK equipped 911s than manual ones. That's all the evidence I need. They're running a business to make as much profit as possible. that's all.
My point was the same as yours. It is smarter to make a Larger profit by including both customers who want PDK and customers who want manuals; which is what the actual CEO of the company reversed course to do (after telling us the PDK was so great, "driver oriented", and that there was too "little" customer demand for the manual). I am sure their market analyst numbers are better than your "evidence" in this regard.I think it's a shame the 911 has gotten so wide (and long).
Sure it may be a blast on track, but what about twisty roads or simply your average B road?
It's as wide as an F10 5er and longer than an E46, FFS.
I love the styling on this generation (needs that Sport Design pack though) but I can't see it as a sports car. Definitely a good daily driver / GT
Sure it may be a blast on track, but what about twisty roads or simply your average B road?
It's as wide as an F10 5er and longer than an E46, FFS.
I love the styling on this generation (needs that Sport Design pack though) but I can't see it as a sports car. Definitely a good daily driver / GT
SidewaysSi said:
sege said:
The tone is this review sounds apologetic that the new 911 is basically boring on the road for the driver, and repeatedly tries to make excuses for it.
It does nothing for me, i no longer aspire or dream of one day owning a 911 unless it's maybe a 996 GT3 or Singer or something.
Porsche tried to kill the 911 in the past by creating a GT the 928, because they new that even if the customer didn't realise it, that was what they wanted, a bigger faster, more comfy GT. Now they're done it by stealth, kept the name '911' and the customers seem to love it.
This is a GT not a sports car, I disagree with Mr Harris's opinion (frequently). There's nothing wrong with GT's obviously, but a 911 should be a sports car. But then it should also be rear engined obviously, unlike the racing versions these days.
Such a shame that one of the most iconic sports cars ever has come to this. But it's obviously not just suddenly happened with the 992, the 991 was the same, and the 997 to a lesser extent. The 3.4 996 sounds like the last truly inspirational 'base' 991 sports car to me.
I largely agree. Doesn't seem a particularly fun car on road at all which is a shame.It does nothing for me, i no longer aspire or dream of one day owning a 911 unless it's maybe a 996 GT3 or Singer or something.
Porsche tried to kill the 911 in the past by creating a GT the 928, because they new that even if the customer didn't realise it, that was what they wanted, a bigger faster, more comfy GT. Now they're done it by stealth, kept the name '911' and the customers seem to love it.
This is a GT not a sports car, I disagree with Mr Harris's opinion (frequently). There's nothing wrong with GT's obviously, but a 911 should be a sports car. But then it should also be rear engined obviously, unlike the racing versions these days.
Such a shame that one of the most iconic sports cars ever has come to this. But it's obviously not just suddenly happened with the 992, the 991 was the same, and the 997 to a lesser extent. The 3.4 996 sounds like the last truly inspirational 'base' 991 sports car to me.
We can talk about progress blah blah but for most enthusiasts, surely it's not a good thing.
Helicopter123 said:
Conders4008 said:
amazing how 1600kgs (with a driver) & 450bhp now equates to 0-60 time of 3.6 seconds,, seems odd.
The F40 was 478 bhp, 1369 kg and did 0-62 in 4.7.Shows the benefit of improved traction off the line from all the modern tech?
An iconic car for sure, but the F40 is massively outgunned by today's sports cars, let alone supercars. I'd rather have a 458 Speciale over an F40.
GravelBen said:
I'm confused... its a turbocharged 911, but its not called a 911 turbo because thats a... different turbocharged 911?
Yes I would not sell your 991.2 model quite so fade 😀😀It’s prob not as much of a direct contradiction as when BMW started calling 3l turbos 340is etc
Charlie_1 said:
SidewaysSi said:
sege said:
The tone is this review sounds apologetic that the new 911 is basically boring on the road for the driver, and repeatedly tries to make excuses for it.
It does nothing for me, i no longer aspire or dream of one day owning a 911 unless it's maybe a 996 GT3 or Singer or something.
Porsche tried to kill the 911 in the past by creating a GT the 928, because they new that even if the customer didn't realise it, that was what they wanted, a bigger faster, more comfy GT. Now they're done it by stealth, kept the name '911' and the customers seem to love it.
This is a GT not a sports car, I disagree with Mr Harris's opinion (frequently). There's nothing wrong with GT's obviously, but a 911 should be a sports car. But then it should also be rear engined obviously, unlike the racing versions these days.
Such a shame that one of the most iconic sports cars ever has come to this. But it's obviously not just suddenly happened with the 992, the 991 was the same, and the 997 to a lesser extent. The 3.4 996 sounds like the last truly inspirational 'base' 991 sports car to me.
I largely agree. Doesn't seem a particularly fun car on road at all which is a shame.It does nothing for me, i no longer aspire or dream of one day owning a 911 unless it's maybe a 996 GT3 or Singer or something.
Porsche tried to kill the 911 in the past by creating a GT the 928, because they new that even if the customer didn't realise it, that was what they wanted, a bigger faster, more comfy GT. Now they're done it by stealth, kept the name '911' and the customers seem to love it.
This is a GT not a sports car, I disagree with Mr Harris's opinion (frequently). There's nothing wrong with GT's obviously, but a 911 should be a sports car. But then it should also be rear engined obviously, unlike the racing versions these days.
Such a shame that one of the most iconic sports cars ever has come to this. But it's obviously not just suddenly happened with the 992, the 991 was the same, and the 997 to a lesser extent. The 3.4 996 sounds like the last truly inspirational 'base' 991 sports car to me.
We can talk about progress blah blah but for most enthusiasts, surely it's not a good thing.
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