RE: Manual, rear-drive BMW M3 'Pure' rumoured

[Tired]

Ares said:

Neither does my Electric one.

Mrs Ares manual one does sometimes not engage sufficiently though, so she has to leave it in reverse on anything other than a perfect flat road.

Not all electric handbrakes are created equal I guess. The one in my car automatically applies itself if you bring your car to a halt without a seatbelt on, or if you take your seatbelt off while the car is stationary.

Like if I've pulled into the street and taken my seatbelt off to reverse.

Sounds like you need to get your wife's car seen to.

[E65Ross]

Onehp said:

and I don't have to mentally check if it actually engaged like with an electronic one.

Edited by Onehp on Friday 1st February 08:39

Totally disagree with this sentiment. I don't think there's any way to drive off with an electronic handbrake on, whereas there is with a manual. There's also the fact you have a handbrake light on the dash, too.

It's not a case that "a manual handbrake isn't exactly difficult", but it's easier still with an automatic one. As I said earlier, it's easy enough for me to change the channel on my TV using the buttons on the TV, but I prefer the remote control.

[Ares]

Onehp said:

Ares said:

I fail to see, this side of the requirement to pull a handbrake turn, where a manual parking brake impacts the driving experience? I also enjoy tail happy fun, winter & summer; wet and dry. I use my right foot rather than left hand though, and have done since I was 18?

I now remember discussing manual vs automatic with you also We don't need agree, but if it isn't too much a hassle to apply a manual handbrake please leave them at least in this kind of car (I will only buy these 2nd hand). I honestly don't understand the fuss in daily life, it's super quick and you have control (it's wholly 'automatic' gesture), and I don't have to mentally check if it actually engaged like with an electronic one.

Anyhow, simply put, it's a third way to steer a car. Steering wheel, (ability to switch off esp - intermediate), throttle (preferably rwd biased, preferably lsd and good throttle response, but actually also does something on fwd+lsd) and third, slowing down the rear axle. Handbrake or actually rear axle brake (some models engage to the front!), giving you more (safe) options when slowing down and before corner Apex. To me it adds an additional dimension to driving dynamics, primarily on gravel roads and snow/ice, which are probably a lot rarer in the (south?) UK than in more northern latitudes... But handbrake turn only doesn't cover it...

Edited by Onehp on Friday 1st February 08:39

You use a parking brake to slow down....?? In all the instruction I've had in approaching 30 years of driving, road and track, I've never had anyone suggest that you should use the handbrake to slow (or steer) the car. Sound like you need better brakes (and a car that drives the correct wheels).

Issue is, there are tangible benefits to an electronic parking brake. I no longer see any tangible benefits to a manual one.

[Ares]

Tired said:

Ares said:

Neither does my Electric one.

Mrs Ares manual one does sometimes not engage sufficiently though, so she has to leave it in reverse on anything other than a perfect flat road.

Not all electric handbrakes are created equal I guess. The one in my car automatically applies itself if you bring your car to a halt without a seatbelt on, or if you take your seatbelt off while the car is stationary.

Like if I've pulled into the street and taken my seatbelt off to reverse.

Sounds like you need to get your wife's car seen to.

No, her parking brake works fine. She's just a petite woman and does have the strength to pull it on high enough.

The only auto operation on either my car, or the BMWs and Mercs I've had with them has been when you open the driver's door.

[Tired]

Ares said:

No, her parking brake works fine. She's just a petite woman and does have the strength to pull it on high enough.

The only auto operation on either my car, or the BMWs and Mercs I've had with them has been when you open the driver's door.

Not used them on BMW or Merc too often. This is on an Audi.

I see. You said it didn't engage sufficiently. You never said it's because she's too weak to apply it. I don't think I've ever met anyone that couldn't work a handbrake before. I could use one at 12, and I was built like the side of a fiver.

[Ares]

Tired said:

Ares said:

No, her parking brake works fine. She's just a petite woman and does have the strength to pull it on high enough.

The only auto operation on either my car, or the BMWs and Mercs I've had with them has been when you open the driver's door.

Not used them on BMW or Merc too often. This is on an Audi.

I see. You said it didn't engage sufficiently. You never said it's because she's too weak to apply it. I don't think I've ever met anyone that couldn't work a handbrake before. I could use one at 12, and I was built like the side of a fiver.

It doesn't engage sufficiently, if it did, she wouldn't have the problem. But BMW and independents say it is in perfect working order. And if she doesn't have the strength, 1000s (100,000s?) of others will be likewise. EPB fixes that perfectly. It's like modern technology benefiting the world!

[Tired]

Ares said:

It doesn't engage sufficiently, if it did, she wouldn't have the problem. But BMW and independents say it is in perfect working order. And if she doesn't have the strength, 1000s (100,000s?) of others will be likewise. EPB fixes that perfectly. It's like modern technology benefiting the world!

To be clear, I'm not against it in any way, shape or form. My wife's car has assorted bells and whistles, and I think they're great.

I just don't want them for myself.

Actually, I'd really like radar cruise. I find standard cruise control a bit pointless unless you're on a completely empty road, but I can imagine I'd use adaptive cruise control much more often.

[Onehp]

Ares said:

You use a parking brake to slow down....?? In all the instruction I've had in approaching 30 years of driving, road and track, I've never had anyone suggest that you should use the handbrake to slow (or steer) the car. Sound like you need better brakes (and a car that drives the correct wheels).

Issue is, there are tangible benefits to an electronic parking brake. I no longer see any tangible benefits to a manual one.

Slow down as the opposite of power slide (accelerating). But since you can't imagine a M3 being drifted in any possible scenario, I guess all cars should have an EPB...
Or maybe BMW needs to make better manual operated ones so that Ares wife can operate them also... At least for driftable cars??? Pretty please?

Edited by Onehp on Saturday 2nd February 13:35

[Julian Thompson]

What do you need to touch the handbrake for to initiate loss of traction? Isn’t 450hp sufficient?

[Onehp]

Because going on the throttle before a turn with unknown grip levels is rather risky, with the handbrake you get a much better feel for grip levels and can choose your angle accordingly, and actually make progress. To go safe on throttle you would have to slow down a lot more, basically making drifting a matter of showcasing rather then making progress in slippery conditions. One could of course just settle for power sliding past the apex.

From reactions here, I have already resigned to the insight that a manual handbrake is probably a thing of the past. Perhaps if I feel hardcore enough and want to waste some money, I could spend a few k getting a proper hydraulic one installed neatly in the future, but honestly that seems a bit too extreme for a passing enjoyment of no significant importance that future M3 owners wish to kill off anyway, if they ever realised its existence that is...

[48Valves]

Onehp said:

Because going on the throttle before a turn with unknown grip levels is rather risky, with the handbrake you get a much better feel for grip levels and can choose your angle accordingly, and actually make progress. To go safe on throttle you would have to slow down a lot more, basically making drifting a matter of showcasing rather then making progress in slippery conditions. One could of course just settle for power sliding past the apex.

From reactions here, I have already resigned to the insight that a manual handbrake is probably a thing of the past. Perhaps if I feel hardcore enough and want to waste some money, I could spend a few k getting a proper hydraulic one installed neatly in the future, but honestly that seems a bit too extreme for a passing enjoyment of no significant importance that future M3 owners wish to kill off anyway, if they ever realised its existence that is...

For a start I hope you're not doing this on a public road.

Could you please explain exactly how pulling the handbrake gives you better feel for how much grip you have?

[E65Ross]

Are you for real? Do you actually use the handbrake regularly WHILST driving (ie moving)? If so, I bet you are in less than 0.0001% of the population who does so, certainly on a regular basis.

[Julian Thompson]

Onehp said:

Because going on the throttle before a turn with unknown grip levels is rather risky, with the handbrake you get a much better feel for grip levels and can choose your angle accordingly, and actually make progress. To go safe on throttle you would have to slow down a lot more, basically making drifting a matter of showcasing rather then making progress in slippery conditions. One could of course just settle for power sliding past the apex.

From reactions here, I have already resigned to the insight that a manual handbrake is probably a thing of the past. Perhaps if I feel hardcore enough and want to waste some money, I could spend a few k getting a proper hydraulic one installed neatly in the future, but honestly that seems a bit too extreme for a passing enjoyment of no significant importance that future M3 owners wish to kill off anyway, if they ever realised its existence that is...

I’m going to call you out on this:

1) Road cars have cable operated manual parking brakes with ratchet mechanisms - not hydraulic hand actuated fly off brakes as you would find on a rally car. This makes it extremely hard to modulate and not a good idea, ever, on the road.

2) On the way in to a slippery turn the grip is never unknown. You have the deceleration rate and feel as a yardstick.

3) you would have to have initiated some yaw in order for the handbrake to become effective and so what you’re basically saying is that you want to mimic a full drift actually around the apex, as per a rally car. There is no other reason. Once you’re turned in with a rwd car you can tweak the tail out at will, but if you want to slide before you have to get a wiggle on during the approach phase. Since you’re suggesting that the handbrake actually reduces risk during the drift you’re suggesting that drifting around the entire apex is safer than tweaking the tail on the exit. I can’t agree. Both carry some element of risk but from a skill point of view the second is vastly easier, vastly less committed and vastly easier to stop.

PS not being derogatory or disrespectful - happy to debate. Purely opinions.

Edited by Julian Thompson on Saturday 2nd February 19:45

[Onehp]

Ratchet, you hold the button down the whole time - no ratchet. If that doesn't work, drift buttons exist.

As for technique, you don't 'brake' or modulate with the handbrake, you block the rear axle - excellent measure of (drift) grip available, four wheel braking (too high treshold) or wiggeling (4 wheel rolling friction vs 2 wheel skidding friction) doesn't even come close imho, and certainly on turbo cars, the throttle isn't exactly a precision instrument to gauge grip levels with either. There is a reason why handbrake is basically the only technique used by drifters and why they are pretty precise...

Public road? Important point, just like every car hobby, there is a place and a time for everything. You do this where you know nobody will end up in your path, intended path but also possible unintended paths. Crashing and killing innocent bystanders or into incoming traffic is not my idea of fun, neither is being the next youtube viral idiot crashvideo...

Cheers

Edited by Onehp on Saturday 2nd February 20:26

[anonymous-user]

We can all agree, then, that a manual handbrake is not a necessity on a road car.

[Onehp]

Julian.

Of course one could settle with powersliding out of corners. That works too. But pulling through the whole bend is even more satisfying and can be just as 'safe' or even safer. If you block the rear wheels and you notice grip is a lower then expected, you shed more speed with the brake pedal or abort alltogether. If grip is higher you let go and roll in a bit deeper. Nuances of grip inbetween you choose your angle and actual path accordingly so you can seamlessly transition to a nice and even power-trough the bend, without any additional large changes in throttle position and other transitions in rolling or skidding grip.
It's not magic, it's practice and the good sense to abort if you're only the least bit unsure. And the good sense to only do this on appropriate places and occasions of course.

[Onehp]

janesmith1950 said:

We can all agree, then, that a manual handbrake is not a necessity on a road car.

But we are talking about M3's now are we, not about VW Sharans? If we're on about road only exclusively and 100% law abiding car use, we don't need M3's either...

[E65Ross]

Onehp said:

janesmith1950 said:

We can all agree, then, that a manual handbrake is not a necessity on a road car.

But we are talking about M3's now are we, not about VW Sharans? If we're on about road only exclusively and 100% law abiding car use, we don't need M3's either...

I am fortunate enough to know some wealthy people, and know many people who, over the years, have had some very, very nice cars. I can safely say that not a single one of those who had a nice car which had a manual handbrake ever used it whilst actually moving along. The argument is utterly crazy!

[Wills2]

Onehp said:

janesmith1950 said:

We can all agree, then, that a manual handbrake is not a necessity on a road car.

But we are talking about M3's now are we, not about VW Sharans? If we're on about road only exclusively and 100% law abiding car use, we don't need M3's either...

I recently went from an F80 M3 to a G11 7 series, the manual handbrake suited the M3 the electronic one with auto hold suits the 740d, I think it's horses for courses.

You're an automotive engineer from Sweden so I guess your opportunity to drift round an apex in the snow is presented more times to you than the audience here that commute/school run from somewhere like Orpington everyday, they want convenience in a built up busy area rather than ultimate control on a Swedish snow bound road.

Sounds like fun though (the Swedish snow bound road not a school run in Orpington.)

[nickfrog]

Onehp said:

the throttle isn't exactly a precision instrument to gauge grip levels with either.

Particularly as it will only give you a measure of available traction, not lateral grip. Mind you, the hand brake is probably the worst possible tool for that job.