Why can nobody drive in the snow
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
Onehp said:
4wd ain't better than the tyres it is on,
On equal tyres 4wd will be massively superior in slippery conditions. Anyone claiming otherwise simply isn't versed in 4wd's.4wd cars are involved in higher speeds offs because the drivers didn't notice it was slippery. Common knowledge up here. Both straight on and in turns, the even drive postpones the point where the noob driver realizes there is no grip. (Edit: main assumption being the modern car is equipped with ESP which is the main help for keeping the car on the road. On old school sheds, 4wd does help stability, true).
ABS and Antispin: mash that brake pedal and throttle and let them do their work. A proper ABS system will build and release brake pressure by itself, but it needs input from the driver to tell them they really want to stop, mash it and brake bias doesn't matter. ABS will regulate each individual wheel. At very low speeds ABS stops functioning properly then you should feather off and brake bias comes into play.
Likewise with antispin, to get going you feather off, but once the the clutch is in, peeps lift off the trottle when antispin kicks in, but you should keep your foot down, and the system will see to it you get as far as grip allows.
But my main point is that the tyres do most of the job. 4wd helps you get going but it ends there.
Edited by Onehp on Thursday 24th January 12:05
lyonspride said:
This is a contradiction, a 4wd rally car is faster because it's constantly using that 4wd to pull it's way out of and as such accelerate out of corners, where a RWD would be power sliding and a FWD would have to deal with understeer. It's still all about getting power through the wheels, it's buggar all to do with anything else.
Why not rear the detailed answer I gave to you a few posts up... 
Or go and drive a 4wd rally car on a loose surface or speak to people that do. They will be unlikely to agree with you. Plenty of YouTube content to back this up if you want to find something you can watch now.
lyonspride said:
As for all this "modern 4x4" stuff, an old school defender still kicks arse in comparison to a "modern 4x4", because it's lighter and it has narrow tyres which cut right down through the muck to find grip, instead of floating on top of it.
Yes and no.Defenders aren't always all that light, 1600-1800kg or more. And for many years the standard tyre has been a 265/75R16, so not exactly narrow either. Although you are more likely to find Mud terrains, All terrains or all seasons fitted to a Defender. That and the combination of the 4wd system (as I explained above), are what give them very good abilities in the snow.
On the right tyres however a Discovery Sport or Range Rover Evoque would actually offer some advantages in some areas over the Defender..... Mostly down to the traction control systems they have. While many Defenders have no form of TCS at all and only open axle diffs.
lyonspride said:
Anyone who believes all the 4x4 marketing we get all over the TV from November onwards (and especially after a bit of snow), is delusional.
Maybe so, but stubbornly believing 4wd offers no advantages is equally delusional.If you don't believe, all I can say is, go and give it a go first hand. Then come back to me
Onehp said:
Yes we did this before. I disagree.
4wd cars are involved in higher speeds offs because the drivers didn't notice it was slippery.
So your whole argument has nothing to do with with the drive system, and is solely aimed at the drivers.4wd cars are involved in higher speeds offs because the drivers didn't notice it was slippery.
Edited by Onehp on Thursday 24th January 12:05
Which simply reinforces the point, 4wd on equal tyres is superior to 2wd in slippery conditions. Unless you want to apply your logic to seat belts too, meaning wearing them must be more dangerous than not, because when people wear them, they drive quicker....
Onehp said:
300bhp/ton said:
Onehp said:
4wd ain't better than the tyres it is on,
On equal tyres 4wd will be massively superior in slippery conditions. Anyone claiming otherwise simply isn't versed in 4wd's.4wd cars are involved in higher speeds offs because the drivers didn't notice it was slippery. Common knowledge up here. Both straight on and in turns, the even drive postpones the point where the noob driver realizes there is no grip. (Edit: main assumption being the modern car is equipped with ESP which is the main help for keeping the car on the road. On old school sheds, 4wd does help stability, true).
ABS and Antispin: mash that brake pedal and throttle and let them do their work. A proper ABS system will build and release brake pressure by itself, but it needs input from the driver to tell them they really want to stop, mash it and brake bias doesn't matter. ABS will regulate each individual wheel. At very low speeds ABS stops functioning properly then you should feather off and brake bias comes into play.
Likewise with antispin, to get going you feather off, but once the the clutch is in, peeps lift off the trottle when antispin kicks in, but you should keep your foot down, and the system will see to it you get as far as grip allows.
But my main point is that the tyres do most of the job. 4wd helps you get going but it ends there.
Edited by Onehp on Thursday 24th January 12:05
300 is technically correct for carefully driven pick up with locked centre diff.
OneHP also right as 99% of drivers stomp their feet on their SUVs pedals with no feel.
funny how in 20 years living in alps it's normally the suv in the ditch (often GB plates...)
Car-Matt said:
Can't see it, AutoExpress block adblockers. If it's a dumb 4x4 on summers vs 2wd on winters pointless test. Then all I can say is REREAD the posts above.... and lookup the word "equal" .... lol
300bhp/ton said:
Car-Matt said:
Can't see it, AutoExpress block adblockers. If it's a dumb 4x4 on summers vs 2wd on winters pointless test. Then all I can say is REREAD the posts above.... and lookup the word "equal" .... lol;-)
yonex said:
The obligatory idiot in a Range Rover was flashing drivers out of the way on the A40, presumably this one day in the South East he could show his cars full potential.
Colleague in Eastern Europe sent me a picture of his RangeRover in a ditch. Straight single carriageway road - he said the car just slipped sideways off the road. He reckons it's because they're heavily cambered and once the car starts going, nothing he could do to stop it. Several other vehicles on the road had done the same thing.Car-Matt said:
300bhp/ton said:
Car-Matt said:
Can't see it, AutoExpress block adblockers. If it's a dumb 4x4 on summers vs 2wd on winters pointless test. Then all I can say is REREAD the posts above.... and lookup the word "equal" .... lol;-)
300bhp/ton said:
Onehp said:
Yes we did this before. I disagree.
4wd cars are involved in higher speeds offs because the drivers didn't notice it was slippery.
So your whole argument has nothing to do with with the drive system, and is solely aimed at the drivers.4wd cars are involved in higher speeds offs because the drivers didn't notice it was slippery.
Edited by Onehp on Thursday 24th January 12:05
Which simply reinforces the point, 4wd on equal tyres is superior to 2wd in slippery conditions. Unless you want to apply your logic to seat belts too, meaning wearing them must be more dangerous than not, because when people wear them, they drive quicker....
Equally so, winter tyres actually don't reduce road deaths but that is mostly because people are actually MOVING and getting somewhere
And their benefits remain hugely underestimated and unknown to the larger public. Too many people 'choose' and pay for 4x4 when INSTEAD they would be much better off with a set of winter tyres. If you get both, good for you but unfortunately this tends to be mutually exclusive for all too many still. Even in Sweden, SUV owners skimp on quality winters, perhaps because they cost so much in 20"...It's winter in Sweden and I can't wait to have a drive in the new M340i XDRIVE with rear M-diff and all systems switched off... On studded winter tyres of course and on a twisty back road. But in that I don't represent the majority
CABC said:
Car-Matt said:
300bhp/ton said:
Car-Matt said:
Can't see it, AutoExpress block adblockers. If it's a dumb 4x4 on summers vs 2wd on winters pointless test. Then all I can say is REREAD the posts above.... and lookup the word "equal" .... lol;-)
The snow always brings out the driving gods. I was taking it steady up a hill when this winter clad tyre car overtook me. It was funny really as the next bend he was in the ditch. Same thing as a Landy in a ditch, but that was ice.
I actually think a lot can drive ok in snow, slow and steady wins the race. But the winter tyres brigade love the 2 days of snow we get so they can statistics there purchases.
I actually think a lot can drive ok in snow, slow and steady wins the race. But the winter tyres brigade love the 2 days of snow we get so they can statistics there purchases.
RicksAlfas said:
Balmoral said:
300, I grasp both your points there, thanks.
If everyone said that, the internet would be much smaller.
te last year and the year before the best thing to do is ignore posts about tyres by 300 he’s full of crap and won’t listen to anyone.300bhp/ton said:
Skid pad/pan training should really be part of the driving test.
Driving lessons and tests are sufficiently expensive as is without having to add extra expense to do something that is almost irrelevant to most peoples driving. People should just drive more slowly when it's snowing or even better if there is heavy snow don't drive unless they absolutely have to. ToothbrushMan said:
and dont you just love weathermen who after announcing snow and ice saying "but dont venture out in your car unless your journey is absolutely necessary".
no, my journey is totally unnecessary I just thought I would drive around aimlessly for a bit until I got bored.
That's what I do when it snows though. I enjoy it.no, my journey is totally unnecessary I just thought I would drive around aimlessly for a bit until I got bored.
As for the 2WD/4WD comparisons with 'all other things being equal', they never are.
Even if you consider a car which is made in 2WD and 4WD flavour, the 4WD one is going to be heavier, which will adversely impact the ability to accelerate, brake, and turn, although may help traction.
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