Why can nobody drive in the snow

[Alpinestars]

Onehp said:

Alpinestars said:

Oilchange said:

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

Onehp said:

Maybe take Matts conclusion to heart: "without the right rubber, a 4wd car is just as useless as a 2wd car" ...

I've read some silly comments on here before but this one really takes the biscuit!

And yet if you watch this vid it proves the point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atayHQYqA3g&fe...

How does that prove OneHP’s point?

The video shows that awd on summers is significantly worse than a fwd car with winters. What it doesn’t show is that awd and fwd cars would be equals in that weather.

My comment is based on the conclusions of the makers of the video.



(their conclusion is, if you read the last page, based on the fact the 4wd slithered back to a point below the 2wd car. And as far as I am concerned, the point is not about being equal, the point is they are both useless. Perhaps in varying degrees, but useless nevertheless. Utterly useless.

You’re arguing something different to what the video says and what you think my view is. Neither of the videos posted up prove that 2wd is equal to awd/4wd in snow. What they show is that tyres make a big difference - perhaps bigger than what wheels are driven.

[macushla]

My first driving test was cancelled due to snow, the rearranged test was for the end of December, some 8 weeks later, amd just as we got to the Test Centre, it started snowing. There was no way I was letting it get cancelled again, so said I’d do the test and passed.

However there are all sorts of demands made for more training, if we followed up on it then everyone would spend most of their lives in training.

1. More snow training
2. More wet weather training
3. Learn to drive a van / lorry / motorbike / pushbike
4. Learn to drive on a motorway (what if you don’t live anywhere near one?)
And so on

The reality is that we have variable weather and many people can’t drive in it. Once one person gets stuck then the knock on effect is very quick to cause chaos amd even the most amazing rally drovers amongts us might struggle to get up the odd steep hill in stop start traffic from a standstill.

Oh yeah, we don’t have summer tyres on cars (apart from those running Cups), we have allweather tyres, which are going to be a compromise in the more extreme weather. Winter tyres are all well amd good, but we don’t have a climate that means thy should be compulsory amd even if they were it’s not a utopian solution to everything.

[Onehp]

300bhp/ton said:

Onehp said:

Yeah it helps you get going, never debated that. Only the deeply rooted sense that it is anywhere equal or a replacement of proper tyre choice. I will always choose the car with the better tyres over the one with 4wd.

Here some slow parking lot action with 4wd and ice under the snow and not so good (but average for the UK) winter tyres. It is slow....
https://youtu.be/ciVOtnqj5xg

That's quite a good vid tbh. It shows how 4wd allows the car to drift and change direction. Better tyres will help this, but you simply coudn't do the same in a 2wd Golf, regardless of what tyres is was fitted with.

Funny how we see completely different things. The run up to the above vid was me sitting next to the owner asking if the winter tyres were any good. I asked because he was driving quite quickly. He couldn't answer the question. So we changed seats, only to realize there was no good way to safely gauge grip levels on the road. To some it may feel safe, to me 4wd feels totally untransparant. So we went to the parking lot. Owner went for a go and he soon realized how st his wintertyres were, almost no grip at all and basically understeering everywhere. So I had a go to show what the car can do with ESP switched off and constantly yanking the handbrake before every change of direction... Not exactly normal procedure for the average driver. Nor for the owner, who vowed to take it easier on the road.

Your assertion that you need 4wd is obviously false, a fwd car (with esp) would have no problem to drive around that lot in a normal fashion, if winter tyres are on par or better and hardly any slower if at all.

That’s the thing, 4wd helps you get going, gives a sense of security for some and allows for bigger antics as above, but when you get in trouble on your summer tyres mid corner or in an obstacle situation, the last thing people will do is do handbrake turns and go on the throttle to drift around. No, you will turn your steering wheel and dab or mash the brakes. And then there is no difference between the 4wd and 2wd.

Arguably, if 2wd cars on summers can't get moving, the 4wd cars on summers that do manage to get off the driveway, really shouldn't be driving...

300bhp/ton said:

When I had my Impreza it was on summer tyres. It went everywhere I could take it in the snow, including around a field and over the highest hills in the area. Better tyres would have improved things no end, but there is no way in hell I'd have taken a 2wd car on summer tyres the same places. And probably wouldn't have taken a 2wd car in the field either, even on winters.

You merely demonstrate you had traction, that doesn't mean it was any wiser to drive a 4wd on summers than a 2wd on summers on the road (how did the field come in?)...
I see most anecdotes are about managing getting to your destination. Mastering the almost non existing grip and handling the car im such a way you manage to arrive in one piece. A great feeling I know very well. But is it appropriate? Is it more appropriate because you have 4wd? On the former, it depends, but at some point everybody on summers become a liability and an accident waiting to happen. And on the latter, to me it's clearly not, as you, as stated before, will manage to get oneself in dangerous situations that the 2wd wouldn't even be in. So 4wd is even a bigger liability. The research that exists seems to back this up, but to me it's mostly common sense.

But for traction, 4wd is great. Fields, steep driveways, pulling trailers, the odd rally session etc. My next car I want a rear biased awd with lsd in the rear and masive power, so I can test traction even in the dry

I think I'm done here

Edited by Onehp on Thursday 24th January 20:53

[NickGRhodes]

yonex said:

Exactly. ABS isn’t great when you have zero grip. I don’t think the average motorist knows the main benefit of it.

Anything times zero is zero.

[ericmcn]

Tired said:

That's what I do when it snows though. I enjoy it.

As for the 2WD/4WD comparisons with 'all other things being equal', they never are.

Even if you consider a car which is made in 2WD and 4WD flavour, the 4WD one is going to be heavier, which will adversely impact the ability to accelerate, brake, and turn, although may help traction.

BS and another misconception by gods on PH

a quick google yields this (approx weight) - the Subaru I have with all the bells and whistles of AWD, 50:50 torque bla bla is no heavier than any other comparable car in that format.

BMW 330i 2,045kg > RWD
Audi A4 3.0 Tdi 1609Kg > Quattro
Lexus IS250 2.5V6 1570kg > RWD
Subaru Legacy BL/BP 1,500kg > AWD - viscous centre diff, rear torsen diff - 50:50
Mazda 6 1522Kg > FWD SkyActiv-G 165PS
Jaguar X Type 3.0 V6 1710kg > RWD Supercharged
Subaru WRX STi final edition 1534kg > AWD / DCCD

Too much BS sprouted by people on here who dont what they are talking about

[Mr Tidy]

300bhp/ton said:

Your profile says Berkshire....

I'm not sure you can hand on heart really claim that for 27 days a year you cannot drive on summer tyres.... I'd say it is probably more like 2 days a year or sometimes none.

No, you're absolutely right.

I was just using the average number for the UK from the chart posted.

But if you really want to be mobile every day regardless of weather All Seasons or Winters all year have to be the best option - unless you are prepared to swap between Summers and Winters (especially if you have a RWD BMW on run-flats)!

[macushla]

Mr Tidy said:

No, you're absolutely right.

I was just using the average number for the UK from the chart posted.

But if you really want to be mobile every day regardless of weather All Seasons or Winters all year have to be the best option - unless you are prepared to swap between Summers and Winters (especially if you have a RWD BMW on run-flats)!

Nobody has summer tyres, other than those running cups or other virtual slicks. The tyres we all have are all season tyres.

[Mr Tidy]

ericmcn said:

BMW 330i 2,045kg > RWD

Too much BS sprouted by people on here who dont what they are talking about

Where did you get that number from?

The handbook for my 2006 E91 325i Touring (same engine as a 330i) says it weighs 1,545kg.

BMW used car website says a 2015 F30 330i M Sport saloon weighs 1,470kg.

[ericmcn]

Onehp said:

You might be technically correct that a permanent 4wd car will have been higher up the hill, however the reason it gets stuck are the inappropriate tyres.

At best, it might have been a few feet higher up accounting for marginal higher momentum from a better start with true 4wd in the initial first second or so, a marginal difference at best and completely unhelpful for the task at hand, unless your driveway was thas feet longer perhaps...

Overall, I think your comment is a perfect illustration of how much drive is overrated...

if so how can you explain the results on the video here ? its a Subaru with AWD and 50:50 bias but I am sure a comparable AWD vehicle would perform just as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OzK-oRPCbs

take your time.

[ericmcn]

Mr Tidy said:

Where did you get that number from?

The handbook for my 2006 E91 325i Touring (same engine as a 330i) says it weighs 1,545kg.

BMW used car website says a 2015 F30 330i M Sport saloon weighs 1,470kg.

its still no much different than a 3.0 Legacy with AWD,and a 65L fuel tank your BMW with RWD.

A 330i 2004 shows up on carfolio as 1490kg, again not a whole big difference than a Subaru with AWD

[ericmcn]

Mr Tidy said:

Where did you get that number from?

The handbook for my 2006 E91 325i Touring (same engine as a 330i) says it weighs 1,545kg.

BMW used car website says a 2015 F30 330i M Sport saloon weighs 1,470kg.

That figure was from TG:

BMW 3 Series 330i M Sport 4dr
Length 4,633mm
Width (including mirrors) 2,031mm
Height 1,429mm
Seats 5
Doors 4
Luggage Capacity (Seats Up) 480l
Gross Vehicle Weight 2,045kg

[Debaser]

ericmcn said:

Mr Tidy said:

Where did you get that number from?

The handbook for my 2006 E91 325i Touring (same engine as a 330i) says it weighs 1,545kg.

BMW used car website says a 2015 F30 330i M Sport saloon weighs 1,470kg.

That figure was from TG:

BMW 3 Series 330i M Sport 4dr
Length 4,633mm
Width (including mirrors) 2,031mm
Height 1,429mm
Seats 5
Doors 4
Luggage Capacity (Seats Up) 480l
Gross Vehicle Weight 2,045kg

GVW isn’t the weight of the car though.

[Barchettaman]

macushla said:

Nobody has summer tyres, other than those running cups or other virtual slicks. The tyres we all have are all season tyres.

This is incorrect, unless your summer tyres have the Alpine symbol, in which case they're, um, all season tyres.

It snowed pretty much all day yesterday in Frankfurt, onto frozen tarmac. I couldn't get my car, on new Nexen all-seasons, to break traction at all. They're remarkably good!

[RicksAlfas]

macushla said:

Nobody has summer tyres, other than those running cups or other virtual slicks. The tyres we all have are all season tyres.

[JonChalk]

macushla said:

Nobody has summer tyres, other than those running cups or other virtual slicks. The tyres we all have are all season tyres.

Unbelievably wrong.

Not true.

False.

.....anyone else want to join in.

[Hol]

SidewaysSi said:

I hear an old Legacy is what you need in these conditions....

You're now doing this on every tyre and drivetrain post and it is getting a bit boring now..

why don't you just ask Eric for a date. The worst he could do is tell you he likes girls.

[Car-Matt]

ericmcn said:

Tired said:

That's what I do when it snows though. I enjoy it.

As for the 2WD/4WD comparisons with 'all other things being equal', they never are.

Even if you consider a car which is made in 2WD and 4WD flavour, the 4WD one is going to be heavier, which will adversely impact the ability to accelerate, brake, and turn, although may help traction.

BS and another misconception by gods on PH

a quick google yields this (approx weight) - the Subaru I have with all the bells and whistles of AWD, 50:50 torque bla bla is no heavier than any other comparable car in that format.

BMW 330i 2,045kg > RWD
Audi A4 3.0 Tdi 1609Kg > Quattro
Lexus IS250 2.5V6 1570kg > RWD
Subaru Legacy BL/BP 1,500kg > AWD - viscous centre diff, rear torsen diff - 50:50
Mazda 6 1522Kg > FWD SkyActiv-G 165PS
Jaguar X Type 3.0 V6 1710kg > RWD Supercharged
Subaru WRX STi final edition 1534kg > AWD / DCCD

Too much BS sprouted by people on here who dont what they are talking about

Erm why not look at models that come in both 2wd & 4wd...... then see which is heaviest rather than just being a blinkered Subaru fanboi

You’ll be telling us that that tyres don’t matter and judicious use of the handbrake and scandi flicks is the safest method of getting about in slippy roads next......oh hang on that’s the other one

[macushla]

JonChalk said:

macushla said:

Nobody has summer tyres, other than those running cups or other virtual slicks. The tyres we all have are all season tyres.

Unbelievably wrong.

Not true.

False.

.....anyone else want to join in.

Ill pick your comment, but it could be been any of th others. Explain to me why my tyres are summer tyres. I’m confused as to how they’re allowed to be run in autumn, winter and spring. They have a pretty hefty tread pattern that actually reduces the contact patch in summer, so seems a bit strange. I don’t see them advertised anywhere as summer tyres.

[JonChalk]

macushla said:

Ill pick your comment, but it could be been any of th others. Explain to me why my tyres are summer tyres. I’m confused as to how they’re allowed to be run in autumn, winter and spring. They have a pretty hefty tread pattern that actually reduces the contact patch in summer, so seems a bit strange. I don’t see them advertised anywhere as summer tyres.

The default for all UK tyres is what the rest of world and tyre manufacturers call Summer tyres.

If you want the tyres specified as All-Season by manufacturers (such as Michelin Cross-climates), then you need to request / specify / ask for (whatever) them.

A simple search on any tyre supplier site, from Blackcircles down will allow you to do so.

The simple fact is that, on average (blah, blah, blah) the UK weather conditions generally only warrant Summer tyres, and we have no legislation or guidance (unlike many central / northern European countries) requiring you to fit anything other than Summer tyres. So that's what you get. Unless you actively choose All-Season, or Winter tyres.

Edited by JonChalk on Friday 25th January 08:53

[300bhp/ton]

Oilchange said:

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

Onehp said:

Maybe take Matts conclusion to heart: "without the right rubber, a 4wd car is just as useless as a 2wd car" ...

I've read some silly comments on here before but this one really takes the biscuit!

And yet if you watch this vid it proves the point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atayHQYqA3g&fe...

Aren't you missing the point. Find a vid with 2wd on summers and 4wd on summers, that is what the statement is referring too. Or 2wd on winters vs 4wd on winters....