RE: WRC to require electrified cars from 2022

[Jon_S_Rally]

Skylinecrazy said:

It’s also time for old people to move on from groupB.

I went to the Monte last weekend, it was spectacular and completely and utterly rammed. WRC is massively popular abroad, its just that the UK has a load of rose tinted idiots that can’t move on from the past.

Ain't that the truth. While the rest of the world has moved with the times, accepted and exploited changes in regulations and enjoyed the new cars that change brings along, the UK has become entrenched and backward. Unless it's a Group B car or a MK2 Escort, most British rally folks are barely interested, mumbling nonsense about it not being "proper".

As someone closely involved in the sport, it's frustrating beyond belief.

[Alex J Meek]

I’ll just watch group B clips on You Tube.

[Alex J Meek]

The coverage is awful, live start, great! Highlights show on Sunday missed most of Saturday out and went straight to the power stage.

[300bhp/ton]

Skylinecrazy said:

It’s also time for old people to move on from groupB.

I went to the Monte last weekend, it was spectacular and completely and utterly rammed. WRC is massively popular abroad, its just that the UK has a load of rose tinted idiots that can’t move on from the past.

I can quite happily move on from the past thank you. And no, Grp B isn't the appeal either. If anything, Group B is/was the start of the problem. Vehicles totally detached from what you can buy and drive.

As for an event with purpose built penned in enclosures looking busy.... not sure that really says if it is massively popular or not really.


Coverage sucks though and has for years. I'm mean look at this nonsense

internet said:

In the United Kingdom, coverage of the 2017 season is split between four broadcasters. Channel 5 broadcasts the post-event review, while the preview programme is screened on its Spike network. BT Sport has rights to live stages and daily highlights, Motors TV has highlights rights

And things like this:

internet said:

Before the rally there is also a magazine-style preview programme

I don't want to watch a soap opera, I want to watch rallying. Something the rally coverage for many years has been particularly poor at. Combine that with dull looking, similar looking uninteresting sounding cars. And that is why I'm not a fan of modern WRC.


As for mandating EV's.... why not allow some creative freedom. Half the spectacle of rallying is about the different types of machines and ways to make them perform. When they are all regulated to the hilt that it's nothing more than a one make series with silhouette bodies, as they all have almost identical proportions and designs. It is just uninteresting as a spectacle.


BTW, I'm 38. I suspect you might be of a similar age?

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 31st January 16:42

[300bhp/ton]

Jon_S_Rally said:

Skylinecrazy said:

It’s also time for old people to move on from groupB.

I went to the Monte last weekend, it was spectacular and completely and utterly rammed. WRC is massively popular abroad, its just that the UK has a load of rose tinted idiots that can’t move on from the past.

Ain't that the truth. While the rest of the world has moved with the times, accepted and exploited changes in regulations and enjoyed the new cars that change brings along, the UK has become entrenched and backward. Unless it's a Group B car or a MK2 Escort, most British rally folks are barely interested, mumbling nonsense about it not being "proper".

As someone closely involved in the sport, it's frustrating beyond belief.

However, if like you say the UK, rather than just a couple of people (i.e. you are implying a lot of people) feel this way. Does that not say that something isn't appealing?

[Jon_S_Rally]

300bhp/ton said:

However, if like you say the UK, rather than just a couple of people (i.e. you are implying a lot of people) feel this way. Does that not say that something isn't appealing?

Surely not, if it's popular outside of the UK? Portugal still have problems with over-crowding, as do Mexico. Rallies in Europe have the weight behind them to take over towns for the weekend, close roads and tell local residents to like it or lump it - can you imagine that happening here?

It's not appealing to a lot of Brits because rally folk here think anything made beyond 1986 isn't worth caring about. The sport is backwards in so many ways in this country it's unreal; from car clubs, to online presence, to what cars we drive, to how we encourage participation. There is a huge mountain to climb if rallying in the UK is to make it into the 21st century.

[Prohibiting]

The death of motorsport.

[Skylinecrazy]

300bhp/ton said:

I don't want to watch a soap opera, I want to watch rallying. Something the rally coverage for many years has been particularly poor at. Combine that with dull looking, similar looking uninteresting sounding cars. And that is why I'm not a fan of modern WRC.


As for mandating EV's.... why not allow some creative freedom. Half the spectacle of rallying is about the different types of machines and ways to make them perform. When they are all regulated to the hilt that it's nothing more than a one make series with silhouette bodies, as they all have almost identical proportions and designs. It is just uninteresting as a spectacle.


BTW, I'm 38. I suspect you might be of a similar age?

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 31st January 16:42

I presume you don’t like BTCC, British GT, DTM or pretty much any motorsport then? The obsession with a rally car being similar to something you can buy from the manufacture is a pointless one IMO.

The cars 100% do not sound boring, they snarl and bang as you’d expect a race car to do so.

Tell me 300, have you been to any modern motorsport recently? It really is fantastic in person. I’m going to the members meeting at Goodwood in a few weeks, and having been all over Europe watching various motorsports and the current WRC is very much as good as anything I’ve seen.

FYI - I’m 27

[BlackPrince]

Skylinecrazy said:

presume you don’t like BTCC, British GT, DTM or pretty much any motorsport then? The obsession with a rally car being similar to something you can buy from the manufacture is a pointless one IMO.

The cars 100% do not sound boring, they snarl and bang as you’d expect a race car to do so.

Tell me 300, have you been to any modern motorsport recently? It really is fantastic in person. I’m going to the members meeting at Goodwood in a few weeks, and having been all over Europe watching various motorsports and the current WRC is very much as good as anything I’ve seen.

FYI - I’m 27

I haven't watched a full WRC in a few years, but clips I've seen of Ogier, Meekes, et al., are spectacular! The thing that that once upon a time you COULD buy Evos, Impreza STIs, etc that were similar at least in body styling, engine configuration and that they were both AWD to WRC cars, and fair few people on PH actually owned those cars. This was never the case for any other form of motorsport and was something unique that connected fans to the sport. Part of the reason I own my Subaru is that growing up, I watched McRae and Burns slide their Subaru rally cars around spectacularly, and I resolved to one day own one.

A teenager watching WRC today would no doubt be thrilled by the racing, but wouldn't be able to fantasize about owning a 350 hp AWD Toyota Yaris in a decade or so or an AWD Fiesta because of course they don't exist. That to me is a damn shame, and consequently, the relative uniqueness of WRC has been lost.

In the bike world, WSBK requires homologated bikes and its led to some fantastic road bikes, esp from the likes of Ducati, whose roadbikes are relatively close to their racebikes in overall purity of purpose and development. If WSBK were to start to use bikes completely divorced from any road equivalent, as MotoGP does, that would be a shame. Now, I still enjoy watching MotoGP, as I do F1 and Le Mans, but for slightly different reasons.

[blearyeyedboy]

I'm going to need my finest flameproof suit for the following comment...

Bring it on.

If handled correctly, this could reinvigorate the sport. Motorsport used to be about harnessing competition to improve the breed.

Hybrids are currently crap? Let's give them the most high-intensity development program of this decade then.

Let's get them skidding across gravel in a way that makes most regeneration systems work suboptimally. Let's get their batteries under pressure in a cold, snowy Monte Carlo rally. Let's let electrics to bake in the heat of a desert stage. Let's let some mad Scandinavian bloke with a death wish to batter the crap out of it on the 1000 lakes really. Let's cover the thing in Welsh mud so thick you can't tell what model of car you're looking at.

Let's explore torque vectoring. Let's explore torque fill. Let's explore electric driven turbochargers. There are possibilities for something great here if it's not stuffed up.

Then let the breed improve through competition, like early 20th century Motorsport did, to the benefit of us all.

Blind goody two shoes optimism? Quite a bit, I guess. But someone needs to balance the no-one-wants-this, hybrids-are-dangerous-when-they-crash, the-liberal-elite-won't-let-me-watch-pit-girls-anymore complete twaddle.

Bring it on, and then make us a street version so we can forget crimes against automotive culture like the "C4 by Loeb" and have some modern day Impreza available to buy.

[veevee]

Davidonly said:

I actually feel sad for the progress of humanity, at least over here in Europe right now. I really believe most of the current direction of technology and innovation, not to mention regressive use of taxpayer subsidies here, is down to libtard brainwashing perpetuated through education / uni and by 'troughing' polticos. If we are lucky we will stop being so dumb before we hand all of our wealth the China and others (who talk a good game but actually still do exactly what's needed to power their economies).

What we really need to do is get rid of that pesky namby-pamby ‘democracy’ stuff, good firm bit of fascist dictatorship works wonders for economic growth.

[300bhp/ton]

Jon_S_Rally said:

It's not appealing to a lot of Brits because rally folk here think anything made beyond 1986 isn't worth caring about.

I don't agree with that at all. And I don't think you really can either.

Go to any, and I mean any rally related event in the UK today. And the car park will still be littered with Subaru's, Evo's and even a good number of Focus RS' and Cosworths. Ever wondered why?

[300bhp/ton]

Skylinecrazy said:

presume you don’t like BTCC, British GT, DTM or pretty much any motorsport then? The obsession with a rally car being similar to something you can buy from the manufacture is a pointless one IMO.

The cars 100% do not sound boring, they snarl and bang as you’d expect a race car to do so.

Tell me 300, have you been to any modern motorsport recently? It really is fantastic in person. I’m going to the members meeting at Goodwood in a few weeks, and having been all over Europe watching various motorsports and the current WRC is very much as good as anything I’ve seen.

FYI - I’m 27

I do prefer motorsport with variety. GT racing at least has been quite good at this. As the rules have generally allowed more freedom in layout and engines.

I have nothing against one maker series either. The best was probably the TVR Tuscans, but now long since gone. I also very much enjoyed watching the Ginetta championships. But yes, touring cars suffer the same problem. They are all a bit boring, because the regs really do make it a one make series, only they constantly try and trick you into thinking it isn't.


As for the sound of the cars. WRC is boring because they all sound the same because of the regs. And apart from being loud, none of them are all that musical tbh. If you don't think so, then maybe it's you that needs to visit some historic rallying for a good comparison


As for attending events. I was at RallyDay last year and Goodwood. And will probably be at Brands later in the year. Although most of the motorsport I'm involved in is off road.

I do normally follow this:
http://msnrallychamp.co.uk/

Last year seemed a bit down on competitors. But the biggest appeal is the variety of vehicles you get, although there too many Mk1/2 Escorts these days.

[Baldchap]

blearyeyedboy said:

I'm going to need my finest flameproof suit for the following comment...

Bring it on.

If handled correctly, this could reinvigorate the sport. Motorsport used to be about harnessing competition to improve the breed.

Hybrids are currently crap? Let's give them the most high-intensity development program of this decade then.

Let's get them skidding across gravel in a way that makes most regeneration systems work suboptimally. Let's get their batteries under pressure in a cold, snowy Monte Carlo rally. Let's let electrics to bake in the heat of a desert stage. Let's let some mad Scandinavian bloke with a death wish to batter the crap out of it on the 1000 lakes really. Let's cover the thing in Welsh mud so thick you can't tell what model of car you're looking at.

Let's explore torque vectoring. Let's explore torque fill. Let's explore electric driven turbochargers. There are possibilities for something great here if it's not stuffed up.

Then let the breed improve through competition, like early 20th century Motorsport did, to the benefit of us all.

Blind goody two shoes optimism? Quite a bit, I guess. But someone needs to balance the no-one-wants-this, hybrids-are-dangerous-when-they-crash, the-liberal-elite-won't-let-me-watch-pit-girls-anymore complete twaddle.

Bring it on, and then make us a street version so we can forget crimes against automotive culture like the "C4 by Loeb" and have some modern day Impreza available to buy.

I agree. Motorsport pushes boundaries and we will surely see better EVs as a result of the development in WRC.

[300bhp/ton]

For the record I'm not against EV's. Just the fact that they are being mandated. That is frankly stupid. Plus, the FIA really won't allow freedom or ideas. As anything that works well will just be regulated out.

And lets not forget, EV's did compete in rallying quite a while back and got banned.

[Jon_S_Rally]

300bhp/ton said:

I don't agree with that at all. And I don't think you really can either.

Go to any, and I mean any rally related event in the UK today. And the car park will still be littered with Subaru's, Evo's and even a good number of Focus RS' and Cosworths. Ever wondered why?

I do, regularly. While you're right and my comment was partly to illustrate a point, I'm not sure the fact we haven't (for the most part) moved past cars that are at least 20 years old isn't really any better than if they were 30 years old.

300bhp/ton said:

I do prefer motorsport with variety. GT racing at least has been quite good at this. As the rules have generally allowed more freedom in layout and engines.

I have nothing against one maker series either. The best was probably the TVR Tuscans, but now long since gone. I also very much enjoyed watching the Ginetta championships. But yes, touring cars suffer the same problem. They are all a bit boring, because the regs really do make it a one make series, only they constantly try and trick you into thinking it isn't.


As for the sound of the cars. WRC is boring because they all sound the same because of the regs. And apart from being loud, none of them are all that musical tbh. If you don't think so, then maybe it's you that needs to visit some historic rallying for a good comparison


As for attending events. I was at RallyDay last year and Goodwood. And will probably be at Brands later in the year. Although most of the motorsport I'm involved in is off road.

I do normally follow this:
http://msnrallychamp.co.uk/

Last year seemed a bit down on competitors. But the biggest appeal is the variety of vehicles you get, although there too many Mk1/2 Escorts these days.

Been to Rally GB lately? Go and stand in the forests for a day and tell me the modern cars look or sound boring. For the last couple of years, I've taken friends who weren't really that bothered by rallying. This year, we're going to Spain instead of GB. That wasn't my idea, it was theirs - they are hooked. I'm not saying it's perfect - it would be nice to see more variety (it annoys me that R-GT doesn't get the support it should), but the WRC is in a better place than it's been for more than a decade. The "cars all sound the same" thing just doesn't hold water for me either, as virtually all rally cars have been four-pots for the best part of 30 years. Other than the Group A Impreza, there wasn't THAT much different in how the turbo cars sounded, nor the NA cars in the lower classes.

Outside the problems with promotion and coverage, it seems that most rally folk in the UK just have their rose-tinted specs firmly welded to their faces.

[Skylinecrazy]

300bhp/ton said:

I do prefer motorsport with variety. GT racing at least has been quite good at this. As the rules have generally allowed more freedom in layout and engines.

I have nothing against one maker series either. The best was probably the TVR Tuscans, but now long since gone. I also very much enjoyed watching the Ginetta championships. But yes, touring cars suffer the same problem. They are all a bit boring, because the regs really do make it a one make series, only they constantly try and trick you into thinking it isn't.


As for the sound of the cars. WRC is boring because they all sound the same because of the regs. And apart from being loud, none of them are all that musical tbh. If you don't think so, then maybe it's you that needs to visit some historic rallying for a good comparison


As for attending events. I was at RallyDay last year and Goodwood. And will probably be at Brands later in the year. Although most of the motorsport I'm involved in is off road.

I do normally follow this:
http://msnrallychamp.co.uk/

Last year seemed a bit down on competitors. But the biggest appeal is the variety of vehicles you get, although there too many Mk1/2 Escorts these days.

I’ve been to plenty of historic rallies including the RAC last year. As much as I love escorts, every car in historic rallying is an escort... it was amazing to see Steve Perez wheel out his Stratos - that will take some beating!

There’s some proper rallies in March (not circuit stuff) . One on Epynt, the next is the AGBO and the third is the North West stages up in Garstang. I will be at all of these events and I recommend attending all if you can (The entry list for the NWstages is incredible - about 10-15 WRC cars on a British clubman rally)

Also if you want to see some historic rally cars, I recommend race retro at Stoneleigh at the end of this month. You can also pay £5 to go in a rally car lucky dip style. I got incredibly lucky and managed to have a ride in a S12 WRC car.

Im also going to go over to Ypres in Belgium this year all being well. It’s only an hour from Calais and the Belgians know how to run a tarmac event!

PS; I attend plenty of events

[Slippydiff]

Mannginger said:

Fair enough, they don't have to sound terrible ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyXt5PLM1dM) and should improve the breed of hybrid engines

But regrettably that does sound terrible ...

Reminds me of this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8K0dT6ksZ0

which quite frankly is pathetic.

This is what rally cars should sound like :

Not suggesting we should or indeed could go back to this :

https://youtu.be/hBunLyAdCmc?t=23

But, this'll do just nicely thanks :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qoxnx1D7BzE

[Straff99]

They could get a team of Kylie clones to drive them, and give away free chocolate at every spectator point, but I won't be watching them.

Why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-8xHnC5Gec

[C.MW]

Oh st no please DON'T.