RE: WRC to require electrified cars from 2022
Discussion
ReaperCushions said:
ZX10R NIN said:
WRC is suffering for popularity right now, for me what they need are cars that actually look similar to what you see in the showroom, hell it just needs to be a better spectacle what it doesn't need is more complication.
I agree completely, also the manufacturers need to bring out these very limited homologation specials once again. Thats what inspired me, the fact that I could (In theory) walk into a showroom and buy one of those monsters with a few creature comforts added. Gone are the days.The cost to manufacturers bringing back homologation would be unpalatable for most of the field. That's a good way to kill the sport. Not saying I wouldn't like it to happen but that's the reality.
Also like others have said don't mandate it just allow people to run it.
I don't get why EV / hybrid would kill the sport either. Alot of people on here are reminiscent of a gone by era which is never coming back.
Also like others have said don't mandate it just allow people to run it.
I don't get why EV / hybrid would kill the sport either. Alot of people on here are reminiscent of a gone by era which is never coming back.
Despite being aware that Neoluddites rule motorsports since the 1980s (end of group B), or perhaps the 1970s (demise of CanAm), I won't refrain from repeating my old saying: There's a litmus test for new technology in racing.
Does a new technology make the cars quicker? Do it.
If it doesn't, don't.
However, reading that they actually consider to enforce the use of electric probulsion between (!) stages, inevitably leading to dead weight during (!) stages, I doubt WRC is going to follow that path.
Does a new technology make the cars quicker? Do it.
If it doesn't, don't.
However, reading that they actually consider to enforce the use of electric probulsion between (!) stages, inevitably leading to dead weight during (!) stages, I doubt WRC is going to follow that path.
CooperS said:
The cost to manufacturers bringing back homologation would be unpalatable for most of the field. That's a good way to kill the sport. Not saying I wouldn't like it to happen but that's the reality.
Yep, it was the manufacturers that pushed the FIA into getting rid of homolgation specials in the first place.Rallying lost its way with Group B, when it became far too focused on the cars rather than the sport itself, and you can still see this today, when people bang on about the spectacle rather than about the nature of the competition. Rallying was historically as much about navigation and endurance....both elements lost to the sport forever due to the office hours-rallysprint changes forced on the sport post Grp.B era. There was no need to do that once the GrpB monsters were outlawed, but FIA still meddled and messed with something that ultimately wrecked the sport.
EV vehicle competition events of some kind will survive in some form once the eco-mentalists have forced the western world into full autonomous EV's, but it will be 1:1 scale Scalextric, with people sitting on the side in consoles like a video game.
I'll be pushing up daisy's by then, it'll be you youngsters will have to adapt to that eventuality.
Us old farts can cling to historic motorsport events for another decade or two, while F1/WRC/WRX/WEC and the like get lost in the limbo wilderness for a while.
firebird350 said:
It seems that in all walks of life these days people in positions of power seek to 'revolutionize' rather than 'allow to evolve naturally'. I'm thinking here of how the original Audi Quattro entered rallying at the beginning of the 1980's.
Back then, as many rally fans will recall, 4WD wasn't permitted in international rallying until Audi asked the FIA if an exception could be made for their car.The other manufacturers raised no objections, thinking that the concept wouldn't fly. As we all know the concept DID fly and the Quattro did 'revolutionize' the sport and became a spectacular attraction which helped to kick-start the Group B era.
BUT- just supposing the 4WD concept hadn't worked out for Audi in the way Ford's 4WD 3-litre Capris hadn't worked out in rallycross back in the very early 1970's? Had that been the case the Quattro would have just 'withered on the vine' and died - a technological cul-de-sac which proved fruitless.
Okay, so now to Hybrid/EV rally cars. We're supposedly having to embrace the future so why doesn't Todt simply open up the WRC to allow experimental future tech to run alongside existing ICE-powered rally cars on the world stage? It may encourage manufacturers to explore their respective concepts running alongside the existing format to assess them from a merit-based POV. If they work and offer a way forward (as with the UR-quattro) then fine but if they don't, well so be it - as previously stated, a technological cul-de-sac which had to be explored in the current climate.
Please, though, don't arbitrarily force such a formula onto the world rally scene until it proves itself as a naturally-evolutionary step.
Personally, I wouldn't want it but that's not the point here. Me, I still prefer 1970's rallying where it was all N/A, RWD saloon cars which, thanks to N/A made as much noise from induction as from exhaust and which 'suffered' from NOT being able to get all their power onto the road thus providing immense spectacle while trying to! But that's just me...
Well said that man Back then, as many rally fans will recall, 4WD wasn't permitted in international rallying until Audi asked the FIA if an exception could be made for their car.The other manufacturers raised no objections, thinking that the concept wouldn't fly. As we all know the concept DID fly and the Quattro did 'revolutionize' the sport and became a spectacular attraction which helped to kick-start the Group B era.
BUT- just supposing the 4WD concept hadn't worked out for Audi in the way Ford's 4WD 3-litre Capris hadn't worked out in rallycross back in the very early 1970's? Had that been the case the Quattro would have just 'withered on the vine' and died - a technological cul-de-sac which proved fruitless.
Okay, so now to Hybrid/EV rally cars. We're supposedly having to embrace the future so why doesn't Todt simply open up the WRC to allow experimental future tech to run alongside existing ICE-powered rally cars on the world stage? It may encourage manufacturers to explore their respective concepts running alongside the existing format to assess them from a merit-based POV. If they work and offer a way forward (as with the UR-quattro) then fine but if they don't, well so be it - as previously stated, a technological cul-de-sac which had to be explored in the current climate.
Please, though, don't arbitrarily force such a formula onto the world rally scene until it proves itself as a naturally-evolutionary step.
Personally, I wouldn't want it but that's not the point here. Me, I still prefer 1970's rallying where it was all N/A, RWD saloon cars which, thanks to N/A made as much noise from induction as from exhaust and which 'suffered' from NOT being able to get all their power onto the road thus providing immense spectacle while trying to! But that's just me...
Yes, let the teams explore the performance benefits of developing technology to suit the application. Don't impose it on them for the benefit of what? Appearing to commit to reducing global warming by reducing motorsport to a series of whooshes and electric whirring sounds.
Even Goodwood FOS seems to have sold out to the 'electric revolution' and personally I can't be arsed going to that event anymore, it ain't what it used to be in the good old days. Electric and autonomous direction feels like it's taking a stranglehold on the event and dictating that direction.
How about everybody makes more conscious decisions in every aspect of their lives from the amount of meat they eat, to their buying habits and decisions and the amount of waste produced. All of that plays a part in the impact we all have. As for internal combustion engines and motorsport, keep them alive!
Edited by Evoman on Tuesday 18th June 11:48
Edited by Evoman on Tuesday 18th June 11:48
Jon_S_Rally said:
Been to Rally GB lately? Go and stand in the forests for a day and tell me the modern cars look or sound boring. For the last couple of years, I've taken friends who weren't really that bothered by rallying. This year, we're going to Spain instead of GB. That wasn't my idea, it was theirs - they are hooked. I'm not saying it's perfect - it would be nice to see more variety (it annoys me that R-GT doesn't get the support it should), but the WRC is in a better place than it's been for more than a decade. The "cars all sound the same" thing just doesn't hold water for me either, as virtually all rally cars have been four-pots for the best part of 30 years. Other than the Group A Impreza, there wasn't THAT much different in how the turbo cars sounded, nor the NA cars in the lower classes.
Outside the problems with promotion and coverage, it seems that most rally folk in the UK just have their rose-tinted specs firmly welded to their faces.
That's fantastic to hear, and having viewed a few of the rounds this year it does seem to have improved drastically on the last decade. The real problem they have right now is the overall spectacle - and I don't mean Group B.Outside the problems with promotion and coverage, it seems that most rally folk in the UK just have their rose-tinted specs firmly welded to their faces.
Rally GB in the year 2000. We have fully bright and distinct liveried up works entries from... Mitsubishi (Evo), Subaru (Impreza), Ford (Focus), Seat (Cordoba), Peugeot (206), Skoda (Octavia), Hyundai (Accent) and Toyota (Corolla). Each running two car (or more) entries, with each car being driven by household names. 6 WRC champions were driving, plus several others who would go on to become one (such as Burns and Solberg). The colour, the characters, the noise, the spectacle! The year before had a similar lineup, but also supported by F2 Kit Cars which excited as much if not more on tarmac... again FULL WORKS teams with the Hyundai Coupe, Citroen Xsara, Renault Megane Maxi, Peugeot 306, MG ZR, Ford Puma, Vauxhall Astra etc etc.
Fast forward to today and we have 4 full works teams in Ford, Hyundai, Citroen and Toyota. The liveries are all uninspiring and insipid.
Other than Ford, they are running cars that look hilarious and are based off of vehicles that appeal to inner city school girls (except maybe the Fiesta). The driver lineup is notable only for a couple of established talents, and is still trading off of Loeb. It's a shadow of it's former self, and no amount of electification or hybridisation will solve that. In fact the best thing about this year has been trying to bet on how many stages Meeke will do before his next retirement...
Without knowing a ton about rallying, wouldn't a fully EV car be difficult to hide its weight on loose courses? From the little I read about EVs on the track (honestly, taking a Tesla X on a track... well, horses for courses I guess) the response is usually "quick, but heat is the enemy and you can't hide 2.5+ tons). Rally cars tend to be a tiny bit lighter than our road going cars, for good reason... the hybrid might work, I suppose.
This whole EV thing seems to be accelerating way quicker than I'd ever imagined it would. I wonder where they'll get all the extra cobalt from...
This whole EV thing seems to be accelerating way quicker than I'd ever imagined it would. I wonder where they'll get all the extra cobalt from...
ZX10R NIN said:
WRC is suffering for popularity right now, for me what they need are cars that actually look similar to what you see in the showroom, hell it just needs to be a better spectacle what it doesn't need is more complication.
I needs better coverage, 30mins at 11.30pm on Eurosport. I remember reading a while back that the company who hold the rights to it just don’t invest anything into it, look at rallycross it gets much more coverage and it a much better marketed product.Alex J Meek said:
ZX10R NIN said:
WRC is suffering for popularity right now, for me what they need are cars that actually look similar to what you see in the showroom, hell it just needs to be a better spectacle what it doesn't need is more complication.
I needs better coverage, 30mins at 11.30pm on Eurosport. I remember reading a while back that the company who hold the rights to it just don’t invest anything into it, look at rallycross it gets much more coverage and it a much better marketed product.Its just another of Todt's endeavours to save the world.
Motorsport will continue when everything is EV, but I can't see the money staying in it. Who exactly is going to pay £150 to go to silverstone and see a few cars pass with a swish of tyres and a low key hum ? Who is going to stand on the bank at Santa Pod to watch two cars with computer controlled torque distribution go up the strip ? Paint it however you like, EVs are not interesting or exciting in any shape or form.
The smaller tracks/venues will become housing estates, the bigger venues will survive on classic/historic/retro (call it what you will) racing.
Motorsport will continue when everything is EV, but I can't see the money staying in it. Who exactly is going to pay £150 to go to silverstone and see a few cars pass with a swish of tyres and a low key hum ? Who is going to stand on the bank at Santa Pod to watch two cars with computer controlled torque distribution go up the strip ? Paint it however you like, EVs are not interesting or exciting in any shape or form.
The smaller tracks/venues will become housing estates, the bigger venues will survive on classic/historic/retro (call it what you will) racing.
Crafty_ said:
Motorsport will continue when everything is EV, but I can't see the money staying in it. Who exactly is going to pay £150 to go to silverstone and see a few cars pass with a swish of tyres and a low key hum ? Who is going to stand on the bank at Santa Pod to watch two cars with computer controlled torque distribution go up the strip ? Paint it however you like, EVs are not interesting or exciting in any shape or form.
All you're talking about here is noise. What's wrong with a swish of the tyres and a low key hum?? They're still racing, it really doesn't matter how the car is powered. Who really wants to stand at a track breathing in exhaust cr5p and having ear drums bashed??
Its totally inevitable what with the imminent demise of the Ice that electric rally cars will be introduced.
Scalextric is fun so why can't electric rally cars be equally fun to watch..
Crafty_ said:
Who exactly is going to pay £150 to go to silverstone and see a few cars pass with a swish of tyres and a low key hum ?
Actually, with current noise regs, at the World Rallycross events at Lydden Hill in the last few years, the generic engine's have been silenced and dulled to the point where the tortured squeel of the slick tyres was louder than the engines.....A far cry from the days of the late 70's and all through the 80's etc., with BDA's, Zakspeed's, flat 6 911's, 6R4's 5 cyl Audi warble etc. being the only sound you heard.
Skyedriver said:
Charging points in Keilder Forest?
Oh I forgot, the WRC is just a shadow of it's former self and doesn't use real forests anymore.......
Haven't had any interest in it for many years, bring back proper rallying with night time stages. Bank of Cibies, that'll bugger up the EV
Exactly, first RAC Rally I was service crew on back in the early 1980's, was 70+ stages, with all through the night running of stages etc., from South Wales to Scotland and back............... now that was proper rallying.Oh I forgot, the WRC is just a shadow of it's former self and doesn't use real forests anymore.......
Haven't had any interest in it for many years, bring back proper rallying with night time stages. Bank of Cibies, that'll bugger up the EV
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