RE: WRC to require electrified cars from 2022

[Ardennes92]

aeropilot said:

Alex J Meek said:

ZX10R NIN said:

WRC is suffering for popularity right now, for me what they need are cars that actually look similar to what you see in the showroom, hell it just needs to be a better spectacle what it doesn't need is more complication.

I needs better coverage, 30mins at 11.30pm on Eurosport. I remember reading a while back that the company who hold the rights to it just don’t invest anything into it, look at rallycross it gets much more coverage and it a much better marketed product.

I was watching the last round from Sardinia on TV last night, a full hours worth at 7pm prime evening slot, on Freeview channel....Quest I think?

Highlights at end of every day plus special stage coverage on red bull tv, free app available on streaming devices and smart tv’s?

[Jon_S_Rally]

kuiper said:

That's fantastic to hear, and having viewed a few of the rounds this year it does seem to have improved drastically on the last decade. The real problem they have right now is the overall spectacle - and I don't mean Group B.

Rally GB in the year 2000. We have fully bright and distinct liveried up works entries from... Mitsubishi (Evo), Subaru (Impreza), Ford (Focus), Seat (Cordoba), Peugeot (206), Skoda (Octavia), Hyundai (Accent) and Toyota (Corolla). Each running two car (or more) entries, with each car being driven by household names. 6 WRC champions were driving, plus several others who would go on to become one (such as Burns and Solberg). The colour, the characters, the noise, the spectacle! The year before had a similar lineup, but also supported by F2 Kit Cars which excited as much if not more on tarmac... again FULL WORKS teams with the Hyundai Coupe, Citroen Xsara, Renault Megane Maxi, Peugeot 306, MG ZR, Ford Puma, Vauxhall Astra etc etc.

Fast forward to today and we have 4 full works teams in Ford, Hyundai, Citroen and Toyota. The liveries are all uninspiring and insipid.
Other than Ford, they are running cars that look hilarious and are based off of vehicles that appeal to inner city school girls (except maybe the Fiesta). The driver lineup is notable only for a couple of established talents, and is still trading off of Loeb. It's a shadow of it's former self, and no amount of electification or hybridisation will solve that. In fact the best thing about this year has been trying to bet on how many stages Meeke will do before his next retirement...

You're right, things were very exciting at the turn of the century, but I think it's being a bit unfair on the current period. While we only have four teams in the top class, we have extremely close competition, with a real battle for the title since the new cars came along. VW leaving and the new technical regulations have given us some of the best competition we've had since the period you talk about. That's before we even mention WRC2 and the armies of R5 cars competing. Would disagree on the comments about the drivers too. Ogier is a massive talent, while Tanak and Neuville are now real contenders. Meeke adds an unpredictable element. We've had utter dominance over the last couple of last decades by two drivers. Far from trading off that, I'd say we're now finally getting over it. I think people will look back on this period with great fondness. The WRC is the best it's been for a very long time.

A1VDY said:

Who really wants to stand at a track breathing in exhaust cr5p and having ear drums bashed??

I do.

aeropilot said:

Skyedriver said:

Charging points in Keilder Forest?

Oh I forgot, the WRC is just a shadow of it's former self and doesn't use real forests anymore.......

Haven't had any interest in it for many years, bring back proper rallying with night time stages. Bank of Cibies, that'll bugger up the EV

Exactly, first RAC Rally I was service crew on back in the early 1980's, was 70+ stages, with all through the night running of stages etc., from South Wales to Scotland and back............... now that was proper rallying.

Proper, but also unsustainable. The teams didn't want it anymore. Without the teams, there is no WRC. Those were fantastic days, but they're long gone, so we need to get over it.

[aeropilot]

Jon_S_Rally said:

Proper, but also unsustainable. The teams didn't want it anymore.

I think you'll find it was a certain former member of the SS-Charlemagne that didn't want it anymore.....rather than the teams, as PTS tried to take the FIA to court over the rule changes.....ironically lead by the same man that is now in the same job as that certain former member of SS-Charlemagne.

From conversations I had with then current and ex-team members of Ford Motorsport and Lancia Abarth that I talked to when in the same team in 1992, all lamented to switch to 'office hours' rallying.

[Evoman]

A1VDY said:

All you're talking about here is noise. What's wrong with a swish of the tyres and a low key hum??
They're still racing, it really doesn't matter how the car is powered. Who really wants to stand at a track breathing in exhaust cr5p and having ear drums bashed??
Its totally inevitable what with the imminent demise of the Ice that electric rally cars will be introduced.
Scalextric is fun so why can't electric rally cars be equally fun to watch..

To quote that man "What's wrong with a swish of the tyres and a low key hum?? "

Somebody posted earlier about an article they wrote about motorsport, the excitement of the spectacle and yes the sounds. Back on topic this is the World Rally Championship we are talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if you asked spectators, the sound would be a significant part of the attraction and that excitement. It certainly is for me and everybody around me when spectating at events like this. It is a massive part of the thrill of the sport.

I'm sorry but should the sport be reduced to a series of swooshes and hums we would see the majority of spectators turn on their heels and abandon any interest they may have had in WRC.

[Evoman]

These are my feelings on the matter

[anonymous-user]

The fact is, today in our busy lives, few people can be bothered to get up at 4am, drive to some dark, wet corner of Wales and watch some cars go past!


Back in the day, when the cars could be like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh8w1zPte0w

turn the volume up :-)

then there was more chance!

[0a]

They could make it even more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly - don't bother running the rally at all.

[Jon_S_Rally]

aeropilot said:

Jon_S_Rally said:

Proper, but also unsustainable. The teams didn't want it anymore.

I think you'll find it was a certain former member of the SS-Charlemagne that didn't want it anymore.....rather than the teams, as PTS tried to take the FIA to court over the rule changes.....ironically lead by the same man that is now in the same job as that certain former member of SS-Charlemagne.

From conversations I had with then current and ex-team members of Ford Motorsport and Lancia Abarth that I talked to when in the same team in 1992, all lamented to switch to 'office hours' rallying.

What did you used to do in rallying out of interest?

Interesting, as the teams now seem to complain about anything outside of "normal", like longer stages on Corsica etc.

[A FM Langheck]

Jon_S_Rally said:

What did you used to do in rallying out of interest?

Interesting, as the teams now seem to complain about anything outside of "normal", like longer stages on Corsica etc.

I find it slightly depressing to be honest. World Rallying is a different sport from it's 'heyday'. Rallying was a test of both speed & Endurance...a driver could lose minutes in a stage and it wouldn't be the end of his event. There were more opportunities to gain time back as events were longer, and tougher.
Now it's all about 'flat out' speed for 2 and a bit days.....Anything a bit different and a teams/ drivers complain, as seen in Turkey last season. The drivers are still as talented, but I'm not sure they're as well rounded/ multi-skilled as their predecessors; as they don't need to be.

Every so often a little bit more is taken away - and we're told it's all for progress. We are frequently told that Endurance is no longer relevant; try telling that to fans, organisers, etc of all the great 12/24 Hour Sportscar races

To use an analogy; modern day WRC is the equivalent of the Le Mans 24 Hours becoming the Le Mans 6 Hours on the Bugatti circuit; still good, but not what it was/ or should be.

[Jon_S_Rally]

Max_Torque said:

The fact is, today in our busy lives, few people can be bothered to get up at 4am, drive to some dark, wet corner of Wales and watch some cars go past!


Back in the day, when the cars could be like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh8w1zPte0w

turn the volume up :-)

then there was more chance!

Except that viewing figures seem to have been increasing the last couple of years Spectators at WRGB were back over 100,000 in 2017 (you couldn't park within three miles of some of the car parks) and global spectator numbers have been over 4 million for the last couple of seasons.

I can't help but think of "you don't know what it's got 'til it's gone" in relation to the current cars. Yes it would be nice to have more times, yes some of us miss the endurance style of the old days but, the fact is, we have a hugely competitive championship, with very special cars and some very talented drivers.

The biggest problem in rallying remains people's refusal to take off their rose-tinted spectacles.

A FM Langheck said:

I find it slightly depressing to be honest. World Rallying is a different sport from it's 'heyday'. Rallying was a test of both speed & Endurance...a driver could lose minutes in a stage and it wouldn't be the end of his event. There were more opportunities to gain time back as events were longer, and tougher.
Now it's all about 'flat out' speed for 2 and a bit days.....Anything a bit different and a teams/ drivers complain, as seen in Turkey last season. The drivers are still as talented, but I'm not sure they're as well rounded/ multi-skilled as their predecessors; as they don't need to be.

Every so often a little bit more is taken away - and we're told it's all for progress. We are frequently told that Endurance is no longer relevant; try telling that to fans, organisers, etc of all the great 12/24 Hour Sportscar races

To use an analogy; modern day WRC is the equivalent of the Le Mans 24 Hours becoming the Le Mans 6 Hours on the Bugatti circuit; still good, but not what it was/ or should be.

In fairness, WEC isn't in great shape when it comes to works teams.

There are longer, endurance style rally events out there (Dakar, Safari Classic), so it's there if people want it. You're right though, the WRC has changed. It's not going back to those old days, so we should be grateful for what we have in a way. As I said, it's in much better shape than it's been for a very long time.

[C7 JFW]

As the owner of a Rally car, bring it the hell on!!

I'll miss the sound of the car, which will be very tough, but getting manufacturers to sell Rally cars to the public again will be awesome.

[firebird350]

Max_Torque said:

The fact is, today in our busy lives, few people can be bothered to get up at 4am, drive to some dark, wet corner of Wales and watch some cars go past!


Back in the day, when the cars could be like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh8w1zPte0w

turn the volume up :-)

then there was more chance!

Talking of Andy Burton does anyone here remember his mad Alfa-Ferrari?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2rROTHn5y0

Alfasud Sprint with mid-mounted Ferrari 308GT4 engine - just great!

[RyanTank]

To those of you claiming its the death of the sport and that rallying is all about the noise. have you actually read the recent proposals? its going hybrid, with the capability of full EV for a stage. so we will still have the noise and smells everyone seems obsessed with.
Think of it from a practical point. EV assisted Launch Control will make it drag style launches on tarmac and stupidly squirmy on gravel.

If this is what manufacturers want to keep them and attract others to the sport then bring it on.

Alex J Meek said:

look at rallycross it gets much more coverage and it a much better marketed product.

Easily marketed and filmed as it circuit based. you cant practically have 100kms of stages manned every day to bring you complete footage. which is why much of it is heli footage and in car action.

Skyedriver said:

Bank of Cibies, that'll bugger up the EV

Most have switched to Laser LED systems. not so bad for EV

Jon_S_Rally said:

Those were fantastic days, but they're long gone, so we need to get over it.

This

aeropilot said:

switch to 'office hours' rallying.

If your referring to David Richards tenure as WRC Promoter and the changes to spectator friendly events and the mickey mouse super specials. then yes the irony of modifying the event as it was to enable more people to watch it and make easier to film is not lost on many of us now that stages are shorter and shorter and TV coverage is only available if your willing to look for it.

[Terminator X]

LOLing at these fools chasing / forced to chase electric power. Of no interest at all surely to 99% of petrol heads. Queue up the green brigade calling me a #Luddite

TX.

[Crafty_]

A1VDY said:

All you're talking about here is noise. What's wrong with a swish of the tyres and a low key hum??
They're still racing, it really doesn't matter how the car is powered. Who really wants to stand at a track breathing in exhaust cr5p and having ear drums bashed??
Its totally inevitable what with the imminent demise of the Ice that electric rally cars will be introduced.
Scalextric is fun so why can't electric rally cars be equally fun to watch..

You cannot get around the fact that the noise is an important part.
A pinto wailing through the welsh forests. The gruff barks of a Subaru flat engine.
The roar of a GT Corvette or the wail of a Porsche RSR around le mans,, there are many examples.

Humans react to sensory input - sight, sound and smell in this case.

Remove one of those and the effect is lessened. Imagine going to a concert or festival and all the amplifiers are shut off.

So lets talk about sight. EVs will have computer controlled distribution of power. Engineers are clever people, so they'll develop systems that provide the ability to apply the exact power needed to each wheel, giving the driver exactly what he needs. Efficient ? massively. Quick ? of course. Clinical ? quite possibly. Exciting ? no.

Part of the enjoyment of watching motorsport (particularly in rallying) is man vs machine, can the man make the machine do what he wants it to ? The machine managing part of that job of grappling with the conditions. grip and so on reduces the spectacle.

So, we're left with smell. Do EVs smell ? overheating batteries do I guess ?

We could say there will be regulations against what we might call driver aids, but how successful will that be ? 18 years ago the FIA legalised traction control in F1, simply because they couldn't police it and all the teams were doing it anyway. I'd like to say they've got smarter since...

You might have fun watching scalextric, I'll stick to ICE'd motorsport while it still exists.

[Gary C]

A1VDY said:

Who really wants to stand at a track breathing in exhaust cr5p and having ear drums bashed??

Please get your coat and never darken this doorstep again !!!!!


World rally has forever been spoilt for me, watching Group B from its infancy to its demise, in forests, breathing exhaust and the smell of hot Ferodo & Mintex, with S4's and T16's playing a symphony on my ears and 6R4's adding the thunder

Nothing will ever compete.

Edited by Gary C on Wednesday 19th June 19:42

[Jon_S_Rally]

Gary C said:

Please get your coat and never darken this doorstep again !!!!!

Quite!

Gary C said:

World rally has forever been spoilt for me, watching Group B from its infancy to its demise, in forests, breathing exhaust and the smell of hot Ferodo & Mintex, with S4's and T16's playing a symphony on my ears and 6R4's adding the thunder

Nothing will ever compete.

Edited by Gary C on Wednesday 19th June 19:42

Out of interest, have you been lately? It's pretty good these days...

Weirdly, I think Group B was probably the best and worst thing that ever happened to rallying. Great in that it produced some iconic cars, made the names of some iconic drivers and produced some great events, but worst because we don't seem to get over it. It was 30 years ago and people still keep on moaning that it's gone

[1430]

Is the WRC even broadcast on TV, I've never seen one advert or any footage? It's not surprising it's not popular with 0 marketing , I bet most of the public couldn't even name a driver.

[aeropilot]

Jon_S_Rally said:

Weirdly, I think Group B was probably the best and worst thing that ever happened to rallying. Great in that it produced some iconic cars, made the names of some iconic drivers and produced some great events, but worst because we don't seem to get over it. It was 30 years ago and people still keep on moaning that it's gone

Agree about the worst thing ever.
Some of us (me) being really old, keeping moaning about the fact it ever arrived and lament the era of 1978/9 as being about the highpoint of rallying. Probably the most ever manufacturer works teams, proper event lengths, proper engines, proper sideways, proper lunatic drivers, and club competitors being able to mix it with top boys on their home events............ where's my box of tissues

[Gary C]

aeropilot said:

Jon_S_Rally said:

Weirdly, I think Group B was probably the best and worst thing that ever happened to rallying. Great in that it produced some iconic cars, made the names of some iconic drivers and produced some great events, but worst because we don't seem to get over it. It was 30 years ago and people still keep on moaning that it's gone

Agree about the worst thing ever.
Some of us (me) being really old, keeping moaning about the fact it ever arrived and lament the era of 1978/9 as being about the highpoint of rallying. Probably the most ever manufacturer works teams, proper event lengths, proper engines, proper sideways, proper lunatic drivers, and club competitors being able to mix it with top boys on their home events............ where's my box of tissues

I remember people lamenting that the new fangled aero was stopping cars going properly sideways, however it replaced the swingy arse with the 400 yard power drift which was much more exciting

but Jon_S has a point.

But it was more than just the cars, it was a wave of hero's, extreme cars, proper stages, three manufactures battling and a host of others trying to catch up. Service halts that you could really get to see the cars close up, stages that you could get even closer to a car at full chat. Wings getting bigger and more extreme, while the technology which we thought was advanced at the time, was only really going in to power and traction, producing wild and lairy cars that took real drivers to tame

Actually, the EVO/WRX era was good fun too, especially as it produced a new flood of exciting road cars (bit like the 70's !) and some great battles and no one could ever call Colin Mcrae 'unexciting' to watch and rallying was again fun but it feels like it lost its way shorly afterwards.