Would you still go Diesel...
Discussion
Pooh said:
Have you ever driven a Tesla Model 3 Performance or any Tesla?
No.I've got friends with them and i've looked around them - they seem very bland and doing things like making doors flap up and down and putting statements on screen like 'Yes' or 'No, I want my mommy' doesn't make me laugh.
When Chris Harris/Clarkson/Harry Metcalf/Tiff Needell reviews one and says 'this is really getting somewhere', then it's time.
They're also astonishingly expensive and buying one used means buying one with decreased battery capacity and thus, range.
C7 JFW said:
Pooh said:
Have you ever driven a Tesla Model 3 Performance or any Tesla?
No.I've got friends with them and i've looked around them - they seem very bland and doing things like making doors flap up and down and putting statements on screen like 'Yes' or 'No, I want my mommy' doesn't make me laugh.
When Chris Harris/Clarkson/Harry Metcalf/Tiff Needell reviews one and says 'this is really getting somewhere', then it's time.
They're also astonishingly expensive and buying one used means buying one with decreased battery capacity and thus, range.
I could see me going down the electric car route when I am close to retirement in 10 years time...(or earlier?) as my journey profile then would be compatible with EV....but only if they are price compatible with ICE by then.
C7 JFW said:
Pooh said:
Have you ever driven a Tesla Model 3 Performance or any Tesla?
No.I've got friends with them and i've looked around them - they seem very bland and doing things like making doors flap up and down and putting statements on screen like 'Yes' or 'No, I want my mommy' doesn't make me laugh.
When Chris Harris/Clarkson/Harry Metcalf/Tiff Needell reviews one and says 'this is really getting somewhere', then it's time.
They're also astonishingly expensive and buying one used means buying one with decreased battery capacity and thus, range.
He's a fan.
C7 JFW said:
Pooh said:
Have you ever driven a Tesla Model 3 Performance or any Tesla?
No.I've got friends with them and i've looked around them - they seem very bland and doing things like making doors flap up and down and putting statements on screen like 'Yes' or 'No, I want my mommy' doesn't make me laugh.
When Chris Harris/Clarkson/Harry Metcalf/Tiff Needell reviews one and says 'this is really getting somewhere', then it's time.
They're also astonishingly expensive and buying one used means buying one with decreased battery capacity and thus, range.
Chris Harris seemed pretty impressed, I would not buy one instead of an Alfa Giulia QF if I wanted a fun car for low annual miles but for a high milage daily car with incredibly low running costs, it is hard to beat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk
As for the battery capacity, a low mileage second-hand car should not lose a great deal of capacity, my Zoe has done 66k miles and is still at 90% capacity.
I'd still consider a 330d or M340d if my mileage went up again past the 15k a year I do now, but assuming everything else stays the same it'll be another 6 cylinder petrol. They are just nicer to use in every way from the moment you start them up for a minimal penalty in fuel consumption.
I'd go diesel over EV though - mainly because at this point despite having off-street parking I have nowhere to charge it. I could investigate, but the EV's I've driven weren't entirely inspring - including a Model 3. Sort of felt like a golf buggy with an iPad on the dash, but no beer cooler or shelf on the back to put your clubs
I'd go diesel over EV though - mainly because at this point despite having off-street parking I have nowhere to charge it. I could investigate, but the EV's I've driven weren't entirely inspring - including a Model 3. Sort of felt like a golf buggy with an iPad on the dash, but no beer cooler or shelf on the back to put your clubs
gizlaroc said:
mstrbkr said:
Or as quite a lot of people have said in this thread, it isn't about the cost. It's because the diesel offering of a particular car is the better engine.
Maybe? I have yet to find one where that is the case though.
I have tried loads too.
I like diesels, but genuinely the only reason I buy them is to save money, I can't think of a single car where the diesel is the best choice.
All the torque of the diesel, all the top end of a petrol.
Interestingly I looked back to my last reply to this topic, about a year ago, saying I want a Range Rover but not a diesel, meaning a V8 and sub 20mpg.
What I hadn't considered back then was the hybrid, which I now have sat on my drive. My commute is 6 miles each way, I live 4 miles from town and most of my mates and the places I regularly visit are within 10 miles. I'm getting over 70mpg average as I charge it every night and fit the usage profile perfectly. The diesel would have been useless for me for my needs, probably returned mid 20's mpg and come with all the other negatives of diesel.
However - once my battery runs out and it's just the over-boosted 2l 4 pot petrol lugging nearly 3 tons of SUV + battery around my Range Rover goes from sublimely smooth and silent to sounding like a cheap rep-mobile being ragged. Fine on faster roads as you don't hear it and it's not being stressed, but pretty obvious pulling away from standstill with no electric power or hard acceleration. The towing capacity is also much lower, and reading around it sounds like it does the batteries the world of no good to tow regularly with it. Also if I was doing lots of motorway miles I'd be getting about 30mpg, so the same or slightly less than the diesel, with a smaller tank so more fuel stops.
I think the entire answer to this thread is what fits your usage profile best. If I was regularly towing a track car or driving up and down the motorway I'd have bought a diesel RR and it would have been perfect, where my hybrid would be pretty crap. The biggest problem with diesel is that everyone was pushed into them 10 years ago under the favourable tax and huge economy claims, meaning towns and cities became full of them and their fumes. If most ordinary mileage drivers stuck to smaller petrols and the half decent hybrids/EV's now available and the diesels were predominantly out of towns doing big miles I don't think there would be so much of a problem and the hate campaign against them wouldn't quite be so severe. The mind still boggles as to why so many people doing 5k local-ish miles a year bought a 2l diesel.
What I hadn't considered back then was the hybrid, which I now have sat on my drive. My commute is 6 miles each way, I live 4 miles from town and most of my mates and the places I regularly visit are within 10 miles. I'm getting over 70mpg average as I charge it every night and fit the usage profile perfectly. The diesel would have been useless for me for my needs, probably returned mid 20's mpg and come with all the other negatives of diesel.
However - once my battery runs out and it's just the over-boosted 2l 4 pot petrol lugging nearly 3 tons of SUV + battery around my Range Rover goes from sublimely smooth and silent to sounding like a cheap rep-mobile being ragged. Fine on faster roads as you don't hear it and it's not being stressed, but pretty obvious pulling away from standstill with no electric power or hard acceleration. The towing capacity is also much lower, and reading around it sounds like it does the batteries the world of no good to tow regularly with it. Also if I was doing lots of motorway miles I'd be getting about 30mpg, so the same or slightly less than the diesel, with a smaller tank so more fuel stops.
I think the entire answer to this thread is what fits your usage profile best. If I was regularly towing a track car or driving up and down the motorway I'd have bought a diesel RR and it would have been perfect, where my hybrid would be pretty crap. The biggest problem with diesel is that everyone was pushed into them 10 years ago under the favourable tax and huge economy claims, meaning towns and cities became full of them and their fumes. If most ordinary mileage drivers stuck to smaller petrols and the half decent hybrids/EV's now available and the diesels were predominantly out of towns doing big miles I don't think there would be so much of a problem and the hate campaign against them wouldn't quite be so severe. The mind still boggles as to why so many people doing 5k local-ish miles a year bought a 2l diesel.
Shrimpvende said:
I think the entire answer to this thread is what fits your usage profile best.
And that even goes for different PHEV. Harry Metcalfe got similar results comparing the X5 PHEV and the RR PHEV. Both different in their battery range and engine efficiency, but return similar MPG over the distance he tested.Evanivitch said:
And that even goes for different PHEV. Harry Metcalfe got similar results comparing the X5 PHEV and the RR PHEV. Both different in their battery range and engine efficiency, but return similar MPG over the distance he tested.
The X5 PHEV definitely suits our profile and ticks most of the boxes. However, looking at Used cars, it's a £10k premium for 45e over the 30d - and that gives you the X-Line only. It's around £15k more to go for an equivalent MSport version. Those margins make it almost defunct in terms of spending that much more for the equivalent model, as what you spend on fuel you may as well pick up a 30d or 40i.Shrimpvende said:
Interestingly I looked back to my last reply to this topic, about a year ago, saying I want a Range Rover but not a diesel, meaning a V8 and sub 20mpg.
What I hadn't considered back then was the hybrid, which I now have sat on my drive. My commute is 6 miles each way, I live 4 miles from town and most of my mates and the places I regularly visit are within 10 miles. I'm getting over 70mpg average as I charge it every night and fit the usage profile perfectly. The diesel would have been useless for me for my needs, probably returned mid 20's mpg and come with all the other negatives of diesel.
However - once my battery runs out and it's just the over-boosted 2l 4 pot petrol lugging nearly 3 tons of SUV + battery around my Range Rover goes from sublimely smooth and silent to sounding like a cheap rep-mobile being ragged. Fine on faster roads as you don't hear it and it's not being stressed, but pretty obvious pulling away from standstill with no electric power or hard acceleration. The towing capacity is also much lower, and reading around it sounds like it does the batteries the world of no good to tow regularly with it. Also if I was doing lots of motorway miles I'd be getting about 30mpg, so the same or slightly less than the diesel, with a smaller tank so more fuel stops.
I think the entire answer to this thread is what fits your usage profile best. If I was regularly towing a track car or driving up and down the motorway I'd have bought a diesel RR and it would have been perfect, where my hybrid would be pretty crap. The biggest problem with diesel is that everyone was pushed into them 10 years ago under the favourable tax and huge economy claims, meaning towns and cities became full of them and their fumes. If most ordinary mileage drivers stuck to smaller petrols and the half decent hybrids/EV's now available and the diesels were predominantly out of towns doing big miles I don't think there would be so much of a problem and the hate campaign against them wouldn't quite be so severe. The mind still boggles as to why so many people doing 5k local-ish miles a year bought a 2l diesel.
I've got 3 x mates in London who are all serial RR owners. At one point they were all driving diesels but not now.What I hadn't considered back then was the hybrid, which I now have sat on my drive. My commute is 6 miles each way, I live 4 miles from town and most of my mates and the places I regularly visit are within 10 miles. I'm getting over 70mpg average as I charge it every night and fit the usage profile perfectly. The diesel would have been useless for me for my needs, probably returned mid 20's mpg and come with all the other negatives of diesel.
However - once my battery runs out and it's just the over-boosted 2l 4 pot petrol lugging nearly 3 tons of SUV + battery around my Range Rover goes from sublimely smooth and silent to sounding like a cheap rep-mobile being ragged. Fine on faster roads as you don't hear it and it's not being stressed, but pretty obvious pulling away from standstill with no electric power or hard acceleration. The towing capacity is also much lower, and reading around it sounds like it does the batteries the world of no good to tow regularly with it. Also if I was doing lots of motorway miles I'd be getting about 30mpg, so the same or slightly less than the diesel, with a smaller tank so more fuel stops.
I think the entire answer to this thread is what fits your usage profile best. If I was regularly towing a track car or driving up and down the motorway I'd have bought a diesel RR and it would have been perfect, where my hybrid would be pretty crap. The biggest problem with diesel is that everyone was pushed into them 10 years ago under the favourable tax and huge economy claims, meaning towns and cities became full of them and their fumes. If most ordinary mileage drivers stuck to smaller petrols and the half decent hybrids/EV's now available and the diesels were predominantly out of towns doing big miles I don't think there would be so much of a problem and the hate campaign against them wouldn't quite be so severe. The mind still boggles as to why so many people doing 5k local-ish miles a year bought a 2l diesel.
One is a real petrol head who dipped his toe in the water of the TDV8, decided he wasn't a fan and bought another supercharged Sport. Regular motorway blats to his second home, money no object = petrol.
The other two are both property developers and both were happily tooling around in diesels. Barring the odd building development out of London, not too many miles. No towing. Both piled into hybrids the minute they appeared.
Wouldn't buy the diesel option as I live in a city which keeps talking about diesel charges. No point getting something I then have to pay extra to use, and I can't control what regulations are brought in. Private car is a diesel and one we bought new nearly 13 years ago and we keep it because 1) it's a Toyota and only had 1 real fault, and 2) I hate buying cars and cannot be arsed to go out and buy one, and 3) there is virtually nothing of interest that I want to buy.
Last company car replacement 18 months ago went petrol too (same car type) as the BIK for the equivalent petrol (same BHP, obviously less torque) was less then the diesel and it is a much nicer, quieter place to be. The petrol (1.5tsi) does enough MPG to offset the diesels (2.0 TDi) advantage once cost of fuel is factored in. Add in the £1,000 less list price for the petrol version and it is costing me less in total BIK and fuel than the diesel version did.
Last company car replacement 18 months ago went petrol too (same car type) as the BIK for the equivalent petrol (same BHP, obviously less torque) was less then the diesel and it is a much nicer, quieter place to be. The petrol (1.5tsi) does enough MPG to offset the diesels (2.0 TDi) advantage once cost of fuel is factored in. Add in the £1,000 less list price for the petrol version and it is costing me less in total BIK and fuel than the diesel version did.
Shrimpvende said:
However - once my battery runs out and it's just the over-boosted 2l 4 pot petrol lugging nearly 3 tons of SUV + battery around my Range Rover goes from sublimely smooth and silent to sounding like a cheap rep-mobile being ragged. Fine on faster roads as you don't hear it and it's not being stressed, but pretty obvious pulling away from standstill with no electric power or hard acceleration. The towing capacity is also much lower, and reading around it sounds like it does the batteries the world of no good to tow regularly with it. Also if I was doing lots of motorway miles I'd be getting about 30mpg, so the same or slightly less than the diesel, with a smaller tank so more fuel stops.
Which is why petrol hybrids for big SUV's are an utterly pointless thing. Diesel hybrid would make much more sense, as around town and short journeys as you describe there's no nasty diesel engine issues, but once out on the open road, or on a long journey a big 6 or 8 cyl diesel engine comes into its own....even for lugging around all though batteries.
Quite why manufacturers like RR/BMW/Porsche/Audi etc are not building diesel hybrids on the large SUV's is beyond my understanding. You'd think they make what people want to buy?
NewUsername said:
It totally depends on your usage profile
eg I commute loads and i use an auto 320d as a daily, its a great car on the motorway, loads of torque etc etc. Its a way better tool for that job than a 320i. No doubt about it at all.
Is it? eg I commute loads and i use an auto 320d as a daily, its a great car on the motorway, loads of torque etc etc. Its a way better tool for that job than a 320i. No doubt about it at all.
I have an e91 320i and an F31 320d.
The 320i is a much nicer car to drive, but the 320d is an ED and will return 65mpg on a run compared to around 48mpg on the 320d doing the same journey.
The new 320i is even better for motorway work in many ways being turbo, it feels like a nicer sounding, smoother diesel with more revs to play with when you want them.
But, you will be looking at 40mpg vs 55mpg doing a trip.
AC43 said:
gizlaroc said:
mstrbkr said:
Or as quite a lot of people have said in this thread, it isn't about the cost. It's because the diesel offering of a particular car is the better engine.
Maybe? I have yet to find one where that is the case though.
I have tried loads too.
I like diesels, but genuinely the only reason I buy them is to save money, I can't think of a single car where the diesel is the best choice.
All the torque of the diesel, all the top end of a petrol.
Even ignoring economy I'd still chose the 3.0l Diesel variants of all the mid-large Audi / BMW / Mercs over the equivalent 3.0l petrols. I prefer the way they don't need to be revved much and normally have longer gearing for better motorway cruising. Also the diesels have a much better range which is a big bonus when you do long journeys.
I seem to remeber most road testers prefered the 3l diesel Jaguar XF over the petrol varient and actually said the diesel was the better unit than the 3l petrol.
AC43 said:
gizlaroc said:
mstrbkr said:
Or as quite a lot of people have said in this thread, it isn't about the cost. It's because the diesel offering of a particular car is the better engine.
Maybe? I have yet to find one where that is the case though.
I have tried loads too.
I like diesels, but genuinely the only reason I buy them is to save money, I can't think of a single car where the diesel is the best choice.
All the torque of the diesel, all the top end of a petrol.
As much as anyone says "Oh, I prefer the E350d over the petrol." it really does come down to cost.
Seriously, if someone said to you, you can choose an e class for free and all servicing and fuel is covered for the next 3 years while you own it, would anyone truly chose the E350d over an E500 or E43?
Same with the 320d or 330d, would they really take that over an M340i if there was no costs involved?
I wish people would just be honest, we buy diesel because of the cost.
Now roll back 20 years when we had a NA 1.8i vs 1.9tdi and the diesel made loads of sense, but these days I can't think of a single car on the market where it is the nicest one to own?
Range Rover? 4.4 tdv8 is lovely, but the 5.0 supercharged is something else.
BMW 3 series? As nice as the BMW straight six diesel is, the straight six petrols are amazing.
Alpina? I love the D3, I would easily have a touring and keep it for years. But the B3 petrol is just incredible.
Mercedes S class? S350d is great, but the S560 again is even better.
Then you get the little cars like Audi A3, the 1.4tfsi is just great fun to drive, and returns nearly as much as the 2.0tdi mpg wise.
Let's be honest, if petrols got 25% better economy than diesels we wouldn't sell any.
Davyf said:
It's diesel for me every time, they still have that handy thing called torque, modern everyday petrol cars are so finely ''tuned'' for emissions and economy they have no pulling power.....
But most petrols in the last few years have moved to forced induction, they have torque now. IMHO they are feeling more and more like diesels.
I think many confuse petrol vs diesel with NA vs Forced Induction.
Things have moved on.
You are now see many FI petrols also come with an electric motor that help with pulling away, making the diesels feel a bit lacking.
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