Would you still go Diesel...

[gizlaroc]

Monkeylegend said:

I have an E220 diesel and an SL350 with the 3.7 litre V6. If I could cheaply transplant the SL engine into the E Class I would now that my annual mileage has dropped to about 6k or so. It is a lovely smooth engine and will do 30 mpg ish on a long run, although town driving is not so good, but at 6k miles a year so what.

I would however be left with a 316k mile SL220 diesel which I doubt would be in much demand.

Actually thinking about that they both have the 5g box as well......................mm......................

Sounds like a nice project for Sunday!




The later 3.5 M276 with the 7g tronic plus (plus is important) is so much more economical.
It genuinely blew me away.
It was an 80 litre tank but I would often get 630 miles from a tank and my best tank while in France was just a smidge off 700 miles, which worked out around 40mpg. That was cruise on at 130kmph.

However, that was on 98/99 ron, it would drop too much on 95 ron and you lost the low down 'peppiness' as well, so no cost saving at the pump vs diesel at a pence per litre level.

But incredible engine that once you really get to learn is very impressive. Try one if you can.

[gizlaroc]

NewUsername said:

gizlaroc said:

NewUsername said:

You couldn’t be more wrong

320d vs 320i

Diesel gives more performance more of the time and huge range.

No brainer for commuting (160+ miles a day)

OK, glad you're happy with your car.



I can only talk from my experience.

Me too.....probably done 150k in a E91 320d and around 70k in an E90 320i, both my own and fuel cost not a consideration as my work has always seen to cover my commuting expenses via other channels, We'll have to agree to differ.

You asked for an example where the diesel equivalent was better and for MY usage profile both a E350d and a 320d are preferable to their petrol equivalents by virtue of how they drive nothing else.

Anecdotally i've never particularly found diesels cheaper to run than petrols as I tend to use more tyres and the services are more costly which more or less off sets against any fuel savings

My response was more because you told me I couldn't be more wrong.

I just don't see it between the 320d and 320i, now if we are talking the old 320i that ran up to September 2007 I would agree, it felt flat and all a bit of an effort, but the N43 I just don't think is like that at all.


Same sort of thing with the older M272 350 vs the later M276, the difference I'm sure might be alot to do with the gearbox and the gearing in the 7g plus 'box, but it is quite a remarkable difference for engine which are, on paper, so similar.


But great we have these choices.

[gizlaroc]

NewUsername said:

So in a lets say 320d vs a 320i at motorway speeds you think you get the same response when you plant your foot in both cars?

Laughable

Yeah I do.

Everyone always goes on about 50-70mph times and how "in a diesel when you pull away in 5th the diesel does it in half the time of the petrol."
Yeah, but if the the petrol drops down to 3rd it will do it just as quick, or quicker if it has more power of course.

At the end of the day the 320d has 164hp and the petrol has 170hp, there is nothing in it. It is just a case of matching your torque with your revs.

Now sure, if we are to leave them both in 6th the diesel will pull away and pull away quickly.




Depends what you mean by response? If you mean to press the gas enough to pull away without changing gear then I agree.


The diesel does however 'feel' quicker, just by its nature, we feel changes in acceleration more than speed and that is why diesels feel quicker.

[ZX10R NIN]

gizlaroc said:

My response was more because you told me I couldn't be more wrong.

I just don't see it between the 320d and 320i, now if we are talking the old 320i that ran up to September 2007 I would agree, it felt flat and all a bit of an effort, but the N43 I just don't think is like that at all.


Same sort of thing with the older M272 350 vs the later M276, the difference I'm sure might be alot to do with the gearbox and the gearing in the 7g plus 'box, but it is quite a remarkable difference for engine which are, on paper, so similar.


But great we have these choices.

2.0t 320i v 2.0d 320d when rolling at around 60ish mph (both auto) then the 320d initially edges ahead & stays there which is the extra torque making it's presence felt I'v done this on a few occasions & the result seems to be the same, on a personal note the 320d seems to work better overall.

[NewUsername]

gizlaroc said:

NewUsername said:

So in a lets say 320d vs a 320i at motorway speeds you think you get the same response when you plant your foot in both cars?

Laughable

Yeah I do.

Everyone always goes on about 50-70mph times and how "in a diesel when you pull away in 5th the diesel does it in half the time of the petrol."
Yeah, but if the the petrol drops down to 3rd it will do it just as quick, or quicker if it has more power of course.

At the end of the day the 320d has 164hp and the petrol has 170hp, there is nothing in it. It is just a case of matching your torque with your revs.

Now sure, if we are to leave them both in 6th the diesel will pull away and pull away quickly.




Depends what you mean by response? If you mean to press the gas enough to pull away without changing gear then I agree.


The diesel does however 'feel' quicker, just by its nature, we feel changes in acceleration more than speed and that is why diesels feel quicker.

My 320d has 184bhp @ 4000rpm and 280 lb-ft @ 1900rpm the equivalent petrol 320i had 168bhp @ 6700rpm and 155 lb-ft at 4250prm

The diesel is miles quicker at roll on acceleration (especially when you haven't had forewarning you need some throttle and had chance to drop a gear......by which time the diesel is already ahead anyway)

I think they refer to it as flexibility.....



fyi the current models close the gap slightly current 320d is 188bhp@5500rpm and 295lb-ft at 1900rpm vs 320i 184bhp @5000rpm and 221lbft at 1350rpm

[gizlaroc]

I still don't agree there is the massive difference you seem to be portraying. Sorry.


I totally get you do, I accept that.



My point still stands, I think many buy the diesel for cost reasons. I am in a 320d Touring myself for work.
If however the whole 3 series range was the same price and fuel was 10p a litre I would be in an M340i Touring.


What I said was, if money was no object I can't think of a single car where the diesel is truly the pick of the bunch.


That was the point I was making.

[NewUsername]

gizlaroc said:

I still don't agree there is the massive difference you seem to be portraying. Sorry.


I totally get you do, I accept that.



My point still stands, I think many buy the diesel for cost reasons. I am in a 320d Touring myself for work.
If however the whole 3 series range was the same price and fuel was 10p a litre I would be in an M340i Touring.


What I said was, if money was no object I can't think of a single car where the diesel is truly the pick of the bunch.


That was the point I was making.

That's not a fair comparison..... there isn't a 340d (just checked, there is one coming and i do like the look of it......think S4) ......and of course you get to the point as you increase engine size that the petrol engines start to give that big torque feel and then the diesel question goes away as we all know the mpg numbers are driven by how much low down torque is available, of course if money is an issue then people will drop down the range, that's why i'm not driving a P1 Mclaren , but people buy what they want at their price point and as a private owner I don't think a 320i is more expensive to run than a 320d, any diesel mpg saving is wiped out by more expensive purchase price, more expensive services and the cheaper price of petrol.

I don't think everyone buys a car rated on driving dynamics, in fact i think most cars are sold without consideration to them at all, those of us who care about how a car drives are in a very small minority but to suggest every diesel is bought with budget in mind is inaccurate i'd say although a good number will be.

[mossy50]

DIESEL IS KING

[ZX10R NIN]

In truth there's no right or wrong answer it's down to the individuals needs it's the same as the Manual vs Auto debate going on elsewhere.

[gizlaroc]

NewUsername said:

That's not a fair comparison..... there isn't a 340d (just checked, there is one coming and i do like the look of it......think S4) ......and of course you get to the point as you increase engine size that the petrol engines start to give that big torque feel and then the diesel question goes away as we all know the mpg numbers are driven by how much low down torque is available, of course if money is an issue then people will drop down the range, that's why i'm not driving a P1 Mclaren , but people buy what they want at their price point and as a private owner I don't think a 320i is more expensive to run than a 320d, any diesel mpg saving is wiped out by more expensive purchase price, more expensive services and the cheaper price of petrol.

I don't think everyone buys a car rated on driving dynamics, in fact i think most cars are sold without consideration to them at all, those of us who care about how a car drives are in a very small minority but to suggest every diesel is bought with budget in mind is inaccurate i'd say although a good number will be.

But that was exactly the point I was making, we make the choice based on what we can afford.
I have an F31 320d efficient dynamic touring, but there are better cars in the range and if money was no object I would be buying a petrol.

Bigger NA engines as you say don't lack torque down low, but then neither do the new turbo petrols either.



Also the 330i is really the rival to the 320d price wise, the 320i is considerably cheaper.









Anyway, glad that the 320d is the car you would chose regardless, that is welll handy.

[Petrolism]

Just hibernated our highly but very discreetly modified 300D Turbo which is nearing 30 years of age (Still pristine), for it to undergo some final body & transmission (AMG E55 Gearbox, so it'll have paddle shift & an unbreakable transmission) modifications and am giving my wife an E350 Bluetec Wagon, instead.

I'd rather a clean environmentally friendly Euro 6 Diesel with 400 ft-lb of torque at 1,800 rpm, than a Hybrid. [

url]|https://thumbsnap.com/wsLvVpzF[/url]

Edited by Petrolism on Friday 3rd July 19:08

[NewUsername]

gizlaroc said:

NewUsername said:

That's not a fair comparison..... there isn't a 340d (just checked, there is one coming and i do like the look of it......think S4) ......and of course you get to the point as you increase engine size that the petrol engines start to give that big torque feel and then the diesel question goes away as we all know the mpg numbers are driven by how much low down torque is available, of course if money is an issue then people will drop down the range, that's why i'm not driving a P1 Mclaren , but people buy what they want at their price point and as a private owner I don't think a 320i is more expensive to run than a 320d, any diesel mpg saving is wiped out by more expensive purchase price, more expensive services and the cheaper price of petrol.

I don't think everyone buys a car rated on driving dynamics, in fact i think most cars are sold without consideration to them at all, those of us who care about how a car drives are in a very small minority but to suggest every diesel is bought with budget in mind is inaccurate i'd say although a good number will be.

But that was exactly the point I was making, we make the choice based on what we can afford.
I have an F31 320d efficient dynamic touring, but there are better cars in the range and if money was no object I would be buying a petrol.

Bigger NA engines as you say don't lack torque down low, but then neither do the new turbo petrols either.



Also the 330i is really the rival to the 320d price wise, the 320i is considerably cheaper.









Anyway, glad that the 320d is the car you would chose regardless, that is welll handy.

Makes no sense at all

Whatever your budget you’ll still have a choice between diesel or petrol won’t you?

Because I’m right you’ve now had to move the goalposts yo dissimilar cars , comparing top list price is irrelevant anyway btw.

I think everyone except you would agree the 320d petrol equivalent is the 320i

Only you are incorrectly making it about money because whatever you have to spend there will be a diesel or petrol choice. As already stated diesels aren’t particularly cheaper to run with higher fuel cost/servicing and purchase price.

[Jag_NE]

NewUsername said:

gizlaroc said:

NewUsername said:

That's not a fair comparison..... there isn't a 340d (just checked, there is one coming and i do like the look of it......think S4) ......and of course you get to the point as you increase engine size that the petrol engines start to give that big torque feel and then the diesel question goes away as we all know the mpg numbers are driven by how much low down torque is available, of course if money is an issue then people will drop down the range, that's why i'm not driving a P1 Mclaren , but people buy what they want at their price point and as a private owner I don't think a 320i is more expensive to run than a 320d, any diesel mpg saving is wiped out by more expensive purchase price, more expensive services and the cheaper price of petrol.

I don't think everyone buys a car rated on driving dynamics, in fact i think most cars are sold without consideration to them at all, those of us who care about how a car drives are in a very small minority but to suggest every diesel is bought with budget in mind is inaccurate i'd say although a good number will be.

But that was exactly the point I was making, we make the choice based on what we can afford.
I have an F31 320d efficient dynamic touring, but there are better cars in the range and if money was no object I would be buying a petrol.

Bigger NA engines as you say don't lack torque down low, but then neither do the new turbo petrols either.



Also the 330i is really the rival to the 320d price wise, the 320i is considerably cheaper.









Anyway, glad that the 320d is the car you would chose regardless, that is welll handy.

Makes no sense at all

Whatever your budget you’ll still have a choice between diesel or petrol won’t you?

Because I’m right you’ve now had to move the goalposts yo dissimilar cars , comparing top list price is irrelevant anyway btw.

I think everyone except you would agree the 320d petrol equivalent is the 320i

Only you are incorrectly making it about money because whatever you have to spend there will be a diesel or petrol choice. As already stated diesels aren’t particularly cheaper to run with higher fuel cost/servicing and purchase price.

In my experience bmw servicing is based upon model and engine size, not fuel type.

[gizlaroc]

NewUsername said:

Makes no sense at all

Whatever your budget you’ll still have a choice between diesel or petrol won’t you?

Because I’m right you’ve now had to move the goalposts yo dissimilar cars , comparing top list price is irrelevant anyway btw.

I think everyone except you would agree the 320d petrol equivalent is the 320i

Only you are incorrectly making it about money because whatever you have to spend there will be a diesel or petrol choice. As already stated diesels aren’t particularly cheaper to run with higher fuel cost/servicing and purchase price.

Because you're right? Right about what?



I originally just said that I can't think of a single model of car where the diesel was the ultimate choice, however most of us compromise on what we can afford.


You then said the 320d was much better than the 320i, I said I disagree, I prefer the 320i, which I do, but accept you prefer the 320d. Fair enough, but that was missing my point that the 320d is not the best model available, not when you have M3, 340i, 335d, B3 or D3 etc. all on the 3 series model. But we end up with what we end up with based on our budget.


You said that it has to come down to price to be a fair comparison, to which I replied if that is the case the 330i is the 320d competitor.
Both 2 litre 4 cylinder cars within a grand of each other, one petrol one diesel.

[gizlaroc]

I get it, you prefer the 320d, as I said, that is well handy that your favourite is not one of the most expensive.

I have one and can only dream it was a B3 sat there instead.

[ZX10R NIN]

B3 is right up there on the list of cars I have to own but they don't come up for sale often plus I'm saving for a GT350R.
The OH has a D3 BiTurbo & that is an epic machine which we'll be keeping the engine almost becomes irrelevant the whole car is a peach, I had an F80 M3 at the same & given the chance I took the D3 it was the better package (the M3 didn't stay I didn't get on with it) & the engine is a beast.

Like the new S4 you don't think about it being a diesel until you go to the pump.

[DiamondLights]

So in summary... "Would you still go Diesel" if buying today, it seems most still would?

Just want to bring this to a conclusion to help my decision making!

[WJNB]

I was once issued with a diesel BMW as a company car & such was the shame the D badge got peeled off the moment it arrived. Badge snobbery was thus wasted on me. Sadly the start up rattle & give-away exhaust tip didn't fool anybody.
As a private owner even if I was GIVEN a diesel I'd immediately swop it for 'anything' petrol.
Sorry but diesels will forever in my mind be associated with taxi's, tractors, lorries & vans which is where they belong..

[AC43]

DiamondLights said:

So in summary... "Would you still go Diesel" if buying today, it seems most still would?

Just want to bring this to a conclusion to help my decision making!

Unless you do big miles, tow things and never visit a city centre it's a no.

[Speed1283]

DiamondLights said:

So in summary... "Would you still go Diesel" if buying today, it seems most still would?

Just want to bring this to a conclusion to help my decision making!

My assessment of the thread:

For the right duty cycle and provided it's an EU6 compliant car I think most people who like (or don't mind) diesel probably still would, yes.

But for those who dislike/hate diesel, regardless of duty cycle etc. I think it's a resounding no.