RE: BMW M140i Finale says bye to rear-drive six-pot
Discussion
It is news like this that reinforces my belief that the future of 'affordable' modern cars for anyone with an interest in engineering is increasingly dull.
I have said it before and will no doubt say it again, but whether a car of this size has 200 or a million zillion horse power is immaterial. It is the feel and noise that I enjoy. My Focus 2.5 turbo is in standard tune and I have never thought 'I want more power'. What I do enjoy is the flexibility, character and noise of the engine. That is also why it is now a 'garage queen' and I am now resigned to a future of fairly ordinary 'dailys' - TBH I am more interested in driving a nice smooth, powerful electric car than the latest whizz/pop/fart auto 2.0 turbo mega hatch.
It is also why I am now rekindling my interest in HIFi and away from cars in general. Instead of spending £50k + on a Jaguar F-Type V6 manual that I cannot really afford and could not really use because it only has 2 seats, I would rather spend a fraction of that price on British-made HIFI that costs much less to run and I can enjoy it more of the time. Why not buy a used car?The problem with buying used cars (more than a few years old) in the UK is rust/corrosion, especially underneath so unless something has been a summer- only car most of its life, its not really for me. A sad state of affairs?
I have said it before and will no doubt say it again, but whether a car of this size has 200 or a million zillion horse power is immaterial. It is the feel and noise that I enjoy. My Focus 2.5 turbo is in standard tune and I have never thought 'I want more power'. What I do enjoy is the flexibility, character and noise of the engine. That is also why it is now a 'garage queen' and I am now resigned to a future of fairly ordinary 'dailys' - TBH I am more interested in driving a nice smooth, powerful electric car than the latest whizz/pop/fart auto 2.0 turbo mega hatch.
It is also why I am now rekindling my interest in HIFi and away from cars in general. Instead of spending £50k + on a Jaguar F-Type V6 manual that I cannot really afford and could not really use because it only has 2 seats, I would rather spend a fraction of that price on British-made HIFI that costs much less to run and I can enjoy it more of the time. Why not buy a used car?The problem with buying used cars (more than a few years old) in the UK is rust/corrosion, especially underneath so unless something has been a summer- only car most of its life, its not really for me. A sad state of affairs?
Now its is coming to an end its canonization has begun, it was the ugly, cheap, lease rocket with one wheel drive, crap steering and iffy handling.....
In a couple of years it will emerge as the feted M1 something i, the last bastion of RWD, six cylinder goodness, not like the terrible new even uglier, 4wd (but not "proper" 4wd) one with a transverse Mini engine missing some cylinders.
We will never see its like again, like an E30 M3 but better as it has more cylinders, better than a V10 M5 because it more (working) cylinders, better than an E90 M3 as its faster. i am joking but it is amazing how if something is available we sort of treat it with familiarity breeding contempt almost, I know its well regarded mostly but it will go daft when we decide the new one is s
t, which always happens with new cars.
In a couple of years it will emerge as the feted M1 something i, the last bastion of RWD, six cylinder goodness, not like the terrible new even uglier, 4wd (but not "proper" 4wd) one with a transverse Mini engine missing some cylinders.
We will never see its like again, like an E30 M3 but better as it has more cylinders, better than a V10 M5 because it more (working) cylinders, better than an E90 M3 as its faster. i am joking but it is amazing how if something is available we sort of treat it with familiarity breeding contempt almost, I know its well regarded mostly but it will go daft when we decide the new one is s
t, which always happens with new cars.tril said:
I nearly went for a 140i but I went for the RS3 instead, it's more complete and realistically a lot faster. And for how good the B58 is, the 2.5 TFSI is better.
They don't really compete though, being pitched at completely different price points and audiences. The RS3 is a chunk (40%) more expensive, and is a full house RS model. The M140i isn't an M-car, and is priced accordingly. It's an S3 rival rather than an RS3 rival.It's a shame BMW didn't replicate the M240i / M2 hierarchy for the 1-series, IMHO. Then you would have had a direct comparison.
ITP said:
freeform said:
A bit late in the thread with this sentiment but....
The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
I do agree with this.The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
Edited by freeform on Tuesday 12th February 12:18
The USP will be gone. I’ve had 4 BMW’s, all straight 6, really can’t get excited about a 4 cyl one. There is no point paying a premium to me, the build quality isn’t any better than mainstream brands, hasn’t been for a long time.
Not singling our BMW here, Mercedes quality dipped 20 years ago.
Then you drive a six.
SOL111 said:
KPB1973 said:
Shame they've never properly sorted the chassis on the current one.
This completely.Would have been a legendary car if BMW didn't engineer the car to have a less than sorted chassis.
I wanted to love mine but don't miss it at all, oddly enough.
The M135i is my least favourite of the 3 and I don't miss it. Quick but souless and the styling is horrible.
I miss the 130i for it's amazingly crisp throttle response and free revving nature.
The older cars are flawed in many ways but they have actual feel to the steering and handling and IMHO look better especially the coupe.
There is 0% chance I would buy a transverse 4 cylinder 4WD BMW especially if they take their styling inspiration from the new 7 series. I thought that was a joke when I first saw it.
tril said:
I think a manual M1/240i will be a very sought after car in a few years as the B58 is a very good engine.
I nearly went for a 140i but I went for the RS3 instead, it's more complete and realistically a lot faster. And for how good the B58 is, the 2.5 TFSI is better.
A lot faster?? Well on a roll, it isnt (I have performed extensive tests between my M140 and a friends RS3) Obviously due to the 4wd it is off the line, but the fact that it's well over 10k cheaper than the RS3 and doesnt understeer like one, its a good buy I nearly went for a 140i but I went for the RS3 instead, it's more complete and realistically a lot faster. And for how good the B58 is, the 2.5 TFSI is better.
Limpet said:
tril said:
I nearly went for a 140i but I went for the RS3 instead, it's more complete and realistically a lot faster. And for how good the B58 is, the 2.5 TFSI is better.
They don't really compete though, being pitched at completely different price points and audiences. The RS3 is a chunk (40%) more expensive, and is a full house RS model. The M140i isn't an M-car, and is priced accordingly. It's an S3 rival rather than an RS3 rival.It's a shame BMW didn't replicate the M240i / M2 hierarchy for the 1-series, IMHO. Then you would have had a direct comparison.
That said, an M2 isnt really massively faster in a straight line than an M140i either.
They are the oddball of the class really.
sgtbash said:
A lot faster?? Well on a roll, it isnt (I have performed extensive tests between my M140 and a friends RS3) Obviously due to the 4wd it is off the line, but the fact that it's well over 10k cheaper than the RS3 and doesnt understeer like one, its a good buy
Yes but that’s the caveat of the 140i “just as fast*”- on a warm day, on a dry road, on warm tyres.
Alex P said:
It is news like this that reinforces my belief that the future of 'affordable' modern cars for anyone with an interest in engineering is increasingly dull.
No USP, no sale - to me.Alex P said:
It is also why I am now rekindling my interest in HIFi and away from cars in general. ...
...I would rather spend a fraction of that price on British-made HIFI that costs much less to run and I can enjoy it more of the time.
I would agree but with age my ability to spend had been overtaken by inability to hear!...I would rather spend a fraction of that price on British-made HIFI that costs much less to run and I can enjoy it more of the time.
Alex P said:
Why not buy a used car?The problem with buying used cars (more than a few years old) in the UK is rust/corrosion, especially underneath so unless something has been a summer- only car most of its life, its not really for me. A sad state of affairs?
Fair point but it's what I do with my daily and my weekend car... but the once affordable cars I liked are mostly now out of reach because what they offered is no longer available in the market.
mylesmcd said:
ITP said:
freeform said:
A bit late in the thread with this sentiment but....
The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
I do agree with this.The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
Edited by freeform on Tuesday 12th February 12:18
The USP will be gone. I’ve had 4 BMW’s, all straight 6, really can’t get excited about a 4 cyl one. There is no point paying a premium to me, the build quality isn’t any better than mainstream brands, hasn’t been for a long time.
Not singling our BMW here, Mercedes quality dipped 20 years ago.
Then you drive a six.
I love a six as much as the next man (I've owned four!), but are you saying that 6cyl engines are BMW's main selling point?! I always assumed that rear drive was BMW's main selling point? Most manufacturers now take the easy way out and build FWD cars nice and cheaply with good interior space, whilst Munich are still going to the trouble of building front engine rear drive cars that handle well, to the detriment of cost and interior space. This is BMW's single defining feature, surely? In fact, any other manufacture that wants a piece of the pie has either failed attempting it with FWD, or has gone to great expensive to re-create the FE/RWD platform and succeeded (e.g. Alfa and Jaguar of late).Despite owning four 6 cyl models in the past and being a big fan, I'd argue that some of BMW's finest handling cars are 4cyl. Usually in any range at any given time the 4cyl models have less all up weight and less weight over the nose. I loved my E36 328i sport coupé, but I won't deny that the 318i actually handled better. E30 M3?....
RobM77 said:
mylesmcd said:
ITP said:
freeform said:
A bit late in the thread with this sentiment but....
The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
I do agree with this.The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
Edited by freeform on Tuesday 12th February 12:18
The USP will be gone. I’ve had 4 BMW’s, all straight 6, really can’t get excited about a 4 cyl one. There is no point paying a premium to me, the build quality isn’t any better than mainstream brands, hasn’t been for a long time.
Not singling our BMW here, Mercedes quality dipped 20 years ago.
Then you drive a six.
I love a six as much as the next man (I've owned four!), but are you saying that 6cyl engines are BMW's main selling point?! I always assumed that rear drive was BMW's main selling point? Most manufacturers now take the easy way out and build FWD cars nice and cheaply with good interior space, whilst Munich are still going to the trouble of building front engine rear drive cars that handle well, to the detriment of cost and interior space. This is BMW's single defining feature, surely? In fact, any other manufacture that wants a piece of the pie has either failed attempting it with FWD, or has gone to great expensive to re-create the FE/RWD platform and succeeded (e.g. Alfa and Jaguar of late).Despite owning four 6 cyl models in the past and being a big fan, I'd argue that some of BMW's finest handling cars are 4cyl. Usually in any range at any given time the 4cyl models have less all up weight and less weight over the nose. I loved my E36 328i sport coupé, but I won't deny that the 318i actually handled better. E30 M3?....
mylesmcd said:
RobM77 said:
mylesmcd said:
ITP said:
freeform said:
A bit late in the thread with this sentiment but....
The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
I do agree with this.The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
Edited by freeform on Tuesday 12th February 12:18
The USP will be gone. I’ve had 4 BMW’s, all straight 6, really can’t get excited about a 4 cyl one. There is no point paying a premium to me, the build quality isn’t any better than mainstream brands, hasn’t been for a long time.
Not singling our BMW here, Mercedes quality dipped 20 years ago.
Then you drive a six.
I love a six as much as the next man (I've owned four!), but are you saying that 6cyl engines are BMW's main selling point?! I always assumed that rear drive was BMW's main selling point? Most manufacturers now take the easy way out and build FWD cars nice and cheaply with good interior space, whilst Munich are still going to the trouble of building front engine rear drive cars that handle well, to the detriment of cost and interior space. This is BMW's single defining feature, surely? In fact, any other manufacture that wants a piece of the pie has either failed attempting it with FWD, or has gone to great expensive to re-create the FE/RWD platform and succeeded (e.g. Alfa and Jaguar of late).Despite owning four 6 cyl models in the past and being a big fan, I'd argue that some of BMW's finest handling cars are 4cyl. Usually in any range at any given time the 4cyl models have less all up weight and less weight over the nose. I loved my E36 328i sport coupé, but I won't deny that the 318i actually handled better. E30 M3?....
I was mainly replying to freeform and ITP.RobM77 said:
mylesmcd said:
RobM77 said:
mylesmcd said:
ITP said:
freeform said:
A bit late in the thread with this sentiment but....
The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
I do agree with this.The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
Edited by freeform on Tuesday 12th February 12:18
The USP will be gone. I’ve had 4 BMW’s, all straight 6, really can’t get excited about a 4 cyl one. There is no point paying a premium to me, the build quality isn’t any better than mainstream brands, hasn’t been for a long time.
Not singling our BMW here, Mercedes quality dipped 20 years ago.
Then you drive a six.
I love a six as much as the next man (I've owned four!), but are you saying that 6cyl engines are BMW's main selling point?! I always assumed that rear drive was BMW's main selling point? Most manufacturers now take the easy way out and build FWD cars nice and cheaply with good interior space, whilst Munich are still going to the trouble of building front engine rear drive cars that handle well, to the detriment of cost and interior space. This is BMW's single defining feature, surely? In fact, any other manufacture that wants a piece of the pie has either failed attempting it with FWD, or has gone to great expensive to re-create the FE/RWD platform and succeeded (e.g. Alfa and Jaguar of late).Despite owning four 6 cyl models in the past and being a big fan, I'd argue that some of BMW's finest handling cars are 4cyl. Usually in any range at any given time the 4cyl models have less all up weight and less weight over the nose. I loved my E36 328i sport coupé, but I won't deny that the 318i actually handled better. E30 M3?....
I was mainly replying to freeform and ITP.As a more relevant example, many moons ago I had an e30 325i sport (wish I still had it now, worth loads!), it was a nice car but the handling was not too good, even with an lsd. The steering was poor and the balance nothing special. But it was great, as it had a creamy straight 6. Even just starting it up put a smile on my face. I didn’t have to drive fast to enjoy it. (Good fun drifting round roundabouts though thanks to the lsd!)
The car before it was a Peugeot 405GR, a 1.9 4 cyl, fwd. The handling, ride and steering were considerable better at all times and especially when pressing on. Balance was much better, a very neutral car. Didn’t make me smile starting it up or just running about day to day though.
Hence, for me, a special engine can give more enjoyment, more of the time, than ultimate pin sharp handling and balance.
If you can get a car with both, then that’s the ultimate of course. I feel the M140i is more dominated by its engine, which is fine by me, but a lotus Evora it isn’t. Only thing that stops me from getting one is that they are a bit ugly and the pedals are offset a bit in the manual.
ITP said:
As a more relevant example, many moons ago I had an e30 325i sport (wish I still had it now, worth loads!), it was a nice car but the handling was not too good, even with an lsd. The steering was poor and the balance nothing special. But it was great, as it had a creamy straight 6. Even just starting it up put a smile on my face. I didn’t have to drive fast to enjoy it. (Good fun drifting round roundabouts though thanks to the lsd!)
Bmw's 6 cylinder N/A engines used to sound lovely back then, I remember one of my neighbours had a E36 6 cylinder and it sounded lovely on start up and when he drove off down the street. My E90 330i was as quiet as a mouse in comparison, and I think I got into Bmw's a little too late in life when they decided to make cars so quiet. The biggest gripe I had with my 330i/Z4M/E92 M3 was how quiet they all were(I guess they all needed a few quid chucking at them with Exhausts/Filters to release the noise more though).
PTF said:
JackReacher said:
J4CKO said:
I think they will perhaps end up a bit of a cult car, plenty to go at, 6000 odd M135i's and 9000 M140is listed on Howmanyleft.
Agree I think they will, quite big sales numbers, but haven't quite reached the levels of the EP3 type R which got to 19,000. Interestingly only 15% of the BMWs are manual, I wonder how that will play out longer term on values. Just 471 m240i manuals and 1,100 m140.
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