mandatory speed limiters to be fitted from 2022?
Discussion
Blakewater said:
I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with speed limiters in cars. Your response on the thread about visits from Covid test and trace officers was that you would tell them to f*ck off, so in what other contexts would you consider tracking and forced obedience, possibly even with automated prosecutions for transgressions, to be essential in the name of safety?
After all, I'd be far more of a danger wandering round the supermarket claiming my exemption from wearing a mask a few days after returning from India than I would be driving slightly over the speed limit. I'm sure you're one of the nice people who abides by all the Covid safety regulations, so you shouldn't even notice or mind all the enforcement.
I stated that if someone comes to my front door with clipboard in hand I'll give them two words. You filled in the rest all on your own.After all, I'd be far more of a danger wandering round the supermarket claiming my exemption from wearing a mask a few days after returning from India than I would be driving slightly over the speed limit. I'm sure you're one of the nice people who abides by all the Covid safety regulations, so you shouldn't even notice or mind all the enforcement.
You are already being tracked; remind me how many surveillance cameras there are in the UK, including the number plate and facial recognition cameras. As for compliance, don't you have an MOT every year to make sure you're maintaining your car. Or is that bad; keeping unsafe cars off the road?
The whole purpose of the speed limiters is to keep others safe, not the idiot who likes to speed, trying to fix that over the decades has been an abysmal failure, because you just can't fix stupid.
You can't trust the minority to comply with the speed limits, so you take away the ability to speed. And the first thing some PH members will say is, "I'll disable it".
We can argue all day long, but speed limiters are here to stay and they are dipping their toe in the water here in the US.
https://www.trucker.com/safety/article/21158114/wi...
That link is about lorries being limited, not individual personal vehicles.
If speed limits were set correctly, only very few people would speed because the speeds would feel natural for the road and its environs. By setting them at the average speed (or below...) it criminalises large numbers of drivers driving perfectly sensibly. If people are travelling faster than 'those in power' would desire, they need to change the road environment to make it 'read' as needing a slower speed. You cannot just retrofit a slower speed limit on a road designed to a certain speed (which they usually are if they're not rural roads on their original alignments that are centuries old).
If speed limits were set correctly, only very few people would speed because the speeds would feel natural for the road and its environs. By setting them at the average speed (or below...) it criminalises large numbers of drivers driving perfectly sensibly. If people are travelling faster than 'those in power' would desire, they need to change the road environment to make it 'read' as needing a slower speed. You cannot just retrofit a slower speed limit on a road designed to a certain speed (which they usually are if they're not rural roads on their original alignments that are centuries old).
RSTurboPaul said:
That link is about lorries being limited, not individual personal vehicles.
It is, but didn't the UK introduce speed limiters on HGV's first, then once accepted, or tolerated, they moved onto cars.Car drivers probably cheered when those horrible lorries had their speed reduced, as it didn't affect them. After a few years the government would have enough information to declare it a sucess and tell everyone how many lives had been saved by the speed limiters. Much easier to then include cars and override any objections.
The word is that motorbikes will be next in line, and possibly before 2050.
"The EU hopes that by 2030 its rules are going to see road deaths and serious injuries halved compared to the level in 2020, and by 2050 the aim is to have ‘almost zero’ deaths or serious injuries on the roads. Those targets aren’t going to be met unless it turns its attention to motorcycles at some stage, so we should be prepared to see it happen"
https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-vie...
NMNeil said:
RSTurboPaul said:
That link is about lorries being limited, not individual personal vehicles.
It is, but didn't the UK introduce speed limiters on HGV's first, then once accepted, or tolerated, they moved onto cars.Car drivers probably cheered when those horrible lorries had their speed reduced, as it didn't affect them. After a few years the government would have enough information to declare it a sucess and tell everyone how many lives had been saved by the speed limiters. Much easier to then include cars and override any objections.
The word is that motorbikes will be next in line, and possibly before 2050.
"The EU hopes that by 2030 its rules are going to see road deaths and serious injuries halved compared to the level in 2020, and by 2050 the aim is to have ‘almost zero’ deaths or serious injuries on the roads. Those targets aren’t going to be met unless it turns its attention to motorcycles at some stage, so we should be prepared to see it happen"
https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-vie...
I am not aware of any data on whether or not lorry limits have reduced collisions and/or injuries/deaths.
I am, however, aware of the fact that the UK raised lorry speed limits on single carriageway roads, from 40mph to 50mph, and on dual carriageways, from 50mph to 60mph, in 2015 and saw no negative impact on collision / injury / death statistics.
Rather, they saw increases in productivity and safety, and only very slight increases in actual vehicle speed.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/107248/lorr...
AutoExpress said:
New speed limit increases for lorries have improved road safety by contributing to a 70 per cent decrease in the number of speeding HGVs, according to a Government report.
...
The average speed of lorries on single carriageway roads has risen by 1.5mph to 45.6mph, while average dual carriageway speeds for lorries have gone up 0.4mph to 52.4mph. The DfT says an increase of just 1mph in average lorry speeds would have freed up 650,000 hours of lorry drivers’ time and saved haulage businesses more than £10 million a year.
...
“This move has also potentially improved road safety as it appears to have reduced the risks some drivers take when overtaking slow-moving vehicles.”
So the number of vehicles 'speeding' (i.e. in excess of the limit for the vehicles) went down, recorded vehicle speeds rose only slightly, and no negative impacts were seen....
The average speed of lorries on single carriageway roads has risen by 1.5mph to 45.6mph, while average dual carriageway speeds for lorries have gone up 0.4mph to 52.4mph. The DfT says an increase of just 1mph in average lorry speeds would have freed up 650,000 hours of lorry drivers’ time and saved haulage businesses more than £10 million a year.
...
“This move has also potentially improved road safety as it appears to have reduced the risks some drivers take when overtaking slow-moving vehicles.”
That strongly suggests that:
- lorries were 'speeding' quite a lot before the limits were raised (in quantity and in actual vehicle speed)
- raising the speed limit has made little difference to the drivers' chosen speeds, rather than them becoming speed-demon maniacs
- letting lorries travel at a speed closer to that of other traffic reduces following drivers' frustration levels (ref: the last point in the quote]
which therefore clearly shows that:
- where the legal speed limit bears no reality to the road environment, drivers will ignore the limit, creating disrespect for areas where lower limits are needed for reasons that are not immediately apparent to the passing driver, which increases risk in those already-higher risk areas.
- where the limit is raised to reflect the reality of drivers' speed choices (the overwhelming majority of whom will just be trying to drive safely and at a speed that feels appropriate for the road environment), those drivers will not automatically increase their speeds because they will continue to utilise their own safety judgements rather than relying on the numbers on a pole like a blindly obedient imbecile.
- 'speeding' should not be defined as exceeding the numbers on a pole - it should be defined as 'exceeding a speed that is appropriate for the road conditions and road environment'
- the numbers on the pole are obviously not the sole arbiter of driving safely, and therefore speed limiters on vehicles (whether a fixed top speed or limit-adaptable via GPS/signposts) will only serve to frustrate the drivers of those vehicles and the drivers following those vehicles, especially when speed limits are set inappropriately low via the Mean Speed process defined in Circular 01/2013, rather than via the 85th Percentile process.
RSTurboPaul said:
- 'speeding' should not be defined as exceeding the numbers on a pole - it should be defined as 'exceeding a speed that is appropriate for the road conditions and road environment'
They legislate for both as separate offences, so it's clearly their wish that there be two separate offences & not just the latter.That's not a new situation either, it's stood under governments of all major political persuasions.
vonhosen said:
RSTurboPaul said:
You cannot just retrofit a slower speed limit on a road designed to a certain speed (which they usually are if they're not rural roads on their original alignments that are centuries old).
What's stopping them doing that?What I was saying was slapping a lower speed limit on a road that still looks like a higher speed limit (whether due to its original design or its historic alignment) does not make the road look any different - therefore drivers will continue to choose speeds that reflect the surrounding environment, not the numbers on the pole.
This is shown in traffic surveys, where 85th percentile speeds remain at or around the original speed limit before it was reduced in line with Mean Speed policy.
For example, DfT data shows that 20mph zones have only something like 15-20% speed limit compliance, and when you look at the spread of the speeds, the 85th percentile remains around 30-35mph.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Surveys on compliance with the 30mph limits show around 85% of drivers drive at 30-35mph (within 10%+2mph ACPO guidelines, if they are still used) and the graphs have the same curve as the 20mph limit graphs above - it's almost as if 30mph is a natural speed for a built up environment and people will drive around that speed and vary it as conditions allow, rather than having a hard 20mph or 30mph vehicle limiter that (like cruise control) will encourage people to drive at that limit all the time and pay less attention to the road... (I am sure I read that the 30mph limit was introduced based on observation of real life driver behaviour, rather than through an idealistic '20s plenty' mindset that ignores human behaviour.)
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/speeds-s...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
As for what's stopping 'them' introducing lower limits on roads that don't resemble roads that should have those limits...? (see: the 20mph data above)
Sadly not much can be done. TROs are advertised in tiny print on roadside poles (if at all) and in small print in the back of local newspapers that nobody buys, and might be mentioned somewhere on the council website, so very few responses against changes are received - but, instead, the local people who have been brainwashed by anti-car, anti-mobility 'watermelon' (green on the outside, red on the inside) pressure groups (such as BRAKE) into thinking that a lower limit = World Peace and zero accidents write in and support it because they were the ones pushing for it.
What then happens is it goes through the design process, the local authority officers note that compliance is likely to be low, and the cabinet member or their delegated officer signs it off regardless. It gets implemented and people take no notice of it, the locals complain of 'speeding motorists!!!' (who are doing the same speeds as before the new limit) and get a police speedtrap set up, and then they all get caught because it's them doing the speeding mostly.
Rinse and repeat.
Come mandatory speed limiters, a lot of people are going to be asking 'WTF is this a XXmph limit for??' when they are actually forced to travel at that speed on an empty road with nothing to hit and no-one around, rather than just ignoring it like they do now.
Or they'll just switch off, leave their foot in the same position and expect the car to sort it all out, then wonder why inattention / falling asleep at the wheel accidents are increasing.
Mandatory speed limiters are a simplistic solution to an extremely complex issue, as are lowering speed limits 'because safety'.
As someone once said 'measure what is right, not what is easy'.
Sadly I don't think most in power got that memo.
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Friday 7th May 21:02
RSTurboPaul said:
vonhosen said:
RSTurboPaul said:
You cannot just retrofit a slower speed limit on a road designed to a certain speed (which they usually are if they're not rural roads on their original alignments that are centuries old).
What's stopping them doing that?What I was trying to say was slapping a lower speed limit on a road that still looks like a higher speed limit (whether due to its original design or its historic alignment) does not make the road look any different - therefore drivers will continue to choose speeds that reflect the surrounding environment, not the numbers on the pole.
That's not new instructions, that's the way it's always been (well as long as we've had speed limits).
As it tends to be one speed limit to cover all conditions & one skill level, they tend to be set conservatively. To that end there will be lots of occasions when it will look safe to exceed the posted limit.
We are however expressly forbidden from doing so.
Again, that's not a new situation.
The number on a pole is certainly a factor in me choosing the speed I will travel at, even when I exceed the speed limit.
RSTurboPaul said:
This is shown in traffic surveys, where 85th percentile speeds remain at or around the original speed limit before it was reduced in line with Mean Speed policy.
85th percentile is a bit of hogwash as far as I'm concerned.How can you have a speed limit set at the true 85th percentile with a speed limit already in force when you are measuring for an 85th percentile?
You'd need to have a de-restricted road to determine the true 85th percentile. Unless you are saying of course that people's choice of speed is never ever chosen or influenced by the prevailing speed limit at all.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 7th May 21:33
vonhosen said:
85th percentile is a bit of hogwash as far as I'm concerned.
How can you have a speed limit set at the true 85th percentile with a speed limit already in force when you are measuring for an 85th percentile?
You'd need to have a de-restricted road to determine the true 85th percentile. Unless you are saying of course that people's choice of speed is never ever chosen or influenced by the prevailing speed limit at all.
Yes the 85th percentile is an overly conservative approach to setting limits. There are examples of no limit environments though that you could use as a guide, for example the Isle of Man, or the Autobahn.How can you have a speed limit set at the true 85th percentile with a speed limit already in force when you are measuring for an 85th percentile?
You'd need to have a de-restricted road to determine the true 85th percentile. Unless you are saying of course that people's choice of speed is never ever chosen or influenced by the prevailing speed limit at all.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 7th May 21:33
AJLintern said:
I think this will cause more accidents due to tiredness and inattention. Driving on motorways is dull enough as it is - taking more and more driver interaction from the process will lead to people just dropping off as they're lulled into the false sense of security of a car the appears to take over the decision making... until the lane tracking algorithm pics up an old temporary white line from the previous set of road works and steers you into the armco!
Judging by your last line I assume you’ve driven my company civic ex lolnovus said:
AJLintern said:
I think this will cause more accidents due to tiredness and inattention. Driving on motorways is dull enough as it is - taking more and more driver interaction from the process will lead to people just dropping off as they're lulled into the false sense of security of a car the appears to take over the decision making... until the lane tracking algorithm pics up an old temporary white line from the previous set of road works and steers you into the armco!
Judging by your last line I assume you’ve driven my company civic ex lolI'm not as alert now as when I was younger, pre cameras going for a hoon, you had to be alert, vigilant then, coppers were sneaky. I'd reckon I was safer at 95 than I am now at 65 sitting like a
, looking out the window watching the world go by, as the car pretty much does it all for me.To be honest, it's getting that boring I'd welcome autonomous driving now.
Maybe no one will care because more accident will occur at a lower speed, so less damage done, who knows.
Edited by techguyone on Saturday 8th May 08:29
There is a very real demonstration of an inappropriate speed limit near me.
A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
IAmTupperware said:
Alex said:
This is just typical of the EU's instinct to control our lives and remove all personal freedom and responsibility.
There we go Max_Torque said:
There is a very real demonstration of an inappropriate speed limit near me.
A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
So in both cases they were driving at the maximum legally permissible speed in both the 20's & the 30's?A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
Kawasicki said:
vonhosen said:
So in both cases they were driving at the maximum legally permissible speed in both the 20's & the 30's?
Yes, they were upholding the law, which is the right thing to do, even if 99% of people think the law is completely daft.Right! Right?
You shouldn't expect others to do so though.
The arse in post is the van driver. Not because they chose to exceed the speed limit, but because they didn't do so safely.
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