RE: Next Porsche Macan to be electric only

[otolith]

aaron_2000 said:

otolith said:

aaron_2000 said:

otolith said:

aaron_2000 said:

MrGeoff said:

wab172uk said:

Yet the British infrastructure to charge these thing is virtually none existent.

Sit outside a petrol station for an hour and count how many cars fill up then leave. Now think of the massive que's waiting for all these cars to plug into a charge point for 45 mins.

I'm sure this push for `all electric` will be turned round when no one buys them as they can't charge the damn things up.

Plus, just how many more power stations will we need if we all went all electric? We can't even build one without the French or Chinese building it for us. Look how that's gone recently?

Let's skip the foreplay and get straight to hydrogen...

That'll change everything when it's viable.

Sure will, changing the laws of physics tends to do that.

Oh so hydrogen fuel cell cars have never existed and will never exist? I guess I must be tripping balls

https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo

Oh, they exist. That's not the problem. The problem is that in terms of getting from generated electricity to transport, battery engined vehicles already exceed the theoretical limits on hydrogen efficiency. It is not possible to make a hydrogen fuel cell car better than a current tech EV.

But what's laws of physics changing about the viability of owning a hydrogen car?

You'd have to break them to make it not a stupid thing to do.

[aaron_2000]

otolith said:

aaron_2000 said:

otolith said:

aaron_2000 said:

otolith said:

aaron_2000 said:

MrGeoff said:

wab172uk said:

Yet the British infrastructure to charge these thing is virtually none existent.

Sit outside a petrol station for an hour and count how many cars fill up then leave. Now think of the massive que's waiting for all these cars to plug into a charge point for 45 mins.

I'm sure this push for `all electric` will be turned round when no one buys them as they can't charge the damn things up.

Plus, just how many more power stations will we need if we all went all electric? We can't even build one without the French or Chinese building it for us. Look how that's gone recently?

Let's skip the foreplay and get straight to hydrogen...

That'll change everything when it's viable.

Sure will, changing the laws of physics tends to do that.

Oh so hydrogen fuel cell cars have never existed and will never exist? I guess I must be tripping balls

https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo

Oh, they exist. That's not the problem. The problem is that in terms of getting from generated electricity to transport, battery engined vehicles already exceed the theoretical limits on hydrogen efficiency. It is not possible to make a hydrogen fuel cell car better than a current tech EV.

But what's laws of physics changing about the viability of owning a hydrogen car?

You'd have to break them to make it not a stupid thing to do.

I'd love to hear the logic behind that.

[otolith]

There are other fuel cell chemistries than hydrogen which are a little less pointless, but like hydrogen ultimately all they give you is the ability to charge your electric car faster. At the expense of efficiency and of being able to charge it anywhere with power. Fast charge times are coming down all the time, fuel cells are a busted flush.

[kambites]

wab172uk said:

Yet the British infrastructure to charge these thing is virtually none existent.

Sit outside a petrol station for an hour and count how many cars fill up then leave. Now think of the massive que's waiting for all these cars to plug into a charge point for 45 mins.

What proportion of Porsche owners don't have at least a private driveway where they can charge over-night?

Seems like a sensible move to me. It's not really a sporty car anyway so the loss of engine character isn't a big issue; they already have a platform and drive-train to use which has been tried and tested in a similar sized car; and it's an expensive enough model that the extra cost of batteries isn't going to be a very significant increase in cost.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 27th February 13:43

[lyonspride]

kambites said:

wab172uk said:

Yet the British infrastructure to charge these thing is virtually none existent.

Sit outside a petrol station for an hour and count how many cars fill up then leave. Now think of the massive que's waiting for all these cars to plug into a charge point for 45 mins.

What proportion of Porsche owners don't have at least a private driveway?

There's one down the road from where my parents used to live, small 2 bed terraced house, no garage, no drive, no off road parking, house has seen better days, new Bentley and a nearly new 911 Turbo parked on the road out front. It's easier to buy expensive cars, than it is to get a suitable house to park them at.

[DonkeyApple]

steveb8189 said:

lyonspride said:

Jimbo89 said:

Good on them. Can't help but think it's a gamble though. Do many Porsche buyers have them for their planet saving ability?

Actually a lot, these days most buy for the badge/status. It being electric gives them a "moral high ground" when people question their "conspicuous consumerism".

I agree. And out of all of the current lineup the Macan is the one I would chose for electrification.

You mean tazering the drivers?

[kambites]

lyonspride said:

There's one down the road from where my parents used to live, small 2 bed terraced house, no garage, no drive, no off road parking, house has seen better days, new Bentley and a nearly new 911 Turbo parked on the road out front. It's easier to buy expensive cars, than it is to get a suitable house to park them at.

I know the answer isn't "zero", but I'd be interested to know what it is.

[DonkeyApple]

lyonspride said:

kambites said:

wab172uk said:

Yet the British infrastructure to charge these thing is virtually none existent.

Sit outside a petrol station for an hour and count how many cars fill up then leave. Now think of the massive que's waiting for all these cars to plug into a charge point for 45 mins.

What proportion of Porsche owners don't have at least a private driveway?

There's one down the road from where my parents used to live, small 2 bed terraced house, no garage, no drive, no off road parking, house has seen better days, new Bentley and a nearly new 911 Turbo parked on the road out front. It's easier to buy expensive cars, than it is to get a suitable house to park them at.

So this car discriminates against gypsies, Pakistanis and the late Bob Crow?

[Car 54 where are you]

EVs will not dominate until the infrastructure to fully support them is in place, and they are as quick to recharge as ICE cars are to fill up.

Home charging will cease to be viable, as in the UK only 50% of homes have off road parking. Moreover, as battery technology evolves to match the convenience of ICE vehicles, home charging will be impossible as the grid will not cope.

Here is what the National Grid has to say about it and how it predicts the future could unfold:

http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1281/forecourt-t...

[lyonspride]

Car 54 where are you said:

EVs will not dominate until the infrastructure to fully support them is in place, and they are as quick to recharge as ICE cars are to fill up.

Home charging will cease to be viable, as in the UK only 50% of homes have off road parking. Moreover, as battery technology evolves to match the convenience of ICE vehicles, home charging will be impossible as the grid will not cope.

Here is what the National Grid has to say about it and how it predicts the future could unfold:

http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1281/forecourt-t...

Makes it all look like another stealth tax, buy electric or be taxed more, "oh you can't have an EV? Not our problem......."

[kambites]

Car 54 where are you said:

Moreover, as battery technology evolves to match the convenience of ICE vehicles, home charging will be impossible as the grid will not cope.

That doesn't make sense. Bigger batteries doesn't mean more power required unless people actually drive further (bar any increase in weight). The average car will probably continue to travel around 20 miles a day and consequently use about 6-8kwh per day whether it's capable of 100 miles between charges or 500.

I don't think anyone believes pure EVs are going to "dominate" in the near future, anyway. Just that they will become a popular, viable alternative to internal combustion engines for people whose situation is suited to them. Personally I think we're 15-20 years off pure EVs overtaking ICE vehicles in terms of new car sales.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 27th February 14:10

[jjwilde]

Car 54 where are you said:

EVs will not dominate until the infrastructure to fully support them is in place, and they are as quick to recharge as ICE cars are to fill up.

Home charging will cease to be viable, as in the UK only 50% of homes have off road parking. Moreover, as battery technology evolves to match the convenience of ICE vehicles, home charging will be impossible as the grid will not cope.

Here is what the National Grid has to say about it and how it predicts the future could unfold:

http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1281/forecourt-t...

That PDF is from before the study, the actual conclusion was that they could support it and actually it was not a big deal in the end: https://theenergyst.com/millions-electric-vehicles...

Also you have forgotten that EVs are crazy cheap to run, that will likely be what drives the market to EVs.

Currently it's almost impossible to buy one due to the huge waiting lists, there is absolutely huge demand for EVs.

Also I can't believe people on this forum are still going on about hydrogen, it's a dead end, how many times must people explain why it does not work for vehicles! Even Toyota, who invested billions in to trying to make hydrogen work, have quietly started working on pure EVs.

[kambites]

jjwilde said:

Also you have forgotten that EVs are crazy cheap to run, that will likely be what drives the market to EVs.

There's no guarantee that will continue. Whilst they are fundementally more energy efficient than ICE cars, most of the difference in running costs is down to taxation which can and probably will change over time.

[framerateuk]

An incredibly un-pistonheads thing to say, but I'm looking forward to seeing electric only drivetrains appear in everyday hatchbacks, and seeing what the hot-hatchbacks end up being like.

I can see why people are upset over loosing the ICE, but the reality is we're very close to that point and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes from it. We're already at the point where we're faking engine noise in fast cars anyway. I will miss the howl of a highly strung engine at full chat though!

[otolith]

framerateuk said:

We're already at the point where we're faking engine noise in fast cars anyway. I will miss the howl of a highly strung engine at full chat though!

Exactly. For your average four cylinder turbo, it's no great loss.

[kambites]

framerateuk said:

An incredibly un-pistonheads thing to say, but I'm looking forward to seeing electric only drivetrains appear in everyday hatchbacks, and seeing what the hot-hatchbacks end up being like.

It's going to be interesting because performance is pretty much a byproduct of range with current technology. Hence people like Kia are producing small entirely non-sporty SUV EVs which will do 0-60 in under 8 seconds.

Assuming I can eke another two or three years out of our ailing Skoda, I can't see us buying another ICE powered family car.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 27th February 14:18

[MrBig]

framerateuk said:

An incredibly un-pistonheads thing to say, but I'm looking forward to seeing electric only drivetrains appear in everyday hatchbacks, and seeing what the hot-hatchbacks end up being like.

I can see why people are upset over loosing the ICE, but the reality is we're very close to that point and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes from it. We're already at the point where we're faking engine noise in fast cars anyway. I will miss the howl of a highly strung engine at full chat though!

100% with you. There are a lot of people on here who forget that the vast majority of journeys, and hence car purchases, are because people need to go places. Not because they like the noise of a throbbing 8 cylinder. The simple fact of the matter is economics. Look how many people went blindly to diesel because they heard it was cheaper. Once pure EVs come down in price, they will be everywhere. And you know what, I don't care. As someone running a PHEV as a company car, I'm totally converted. All my short journeys and weekend running around are done on electric. I don't 'miss' using the petrol engine, in the same way I don't miss having a manual gearbox.

As long as they don't ban us having an ICE weekend car for the occasional run out, I couldn't care less what powers my daily. In fact when I had to leave the GTE at work the other week when it was having a new windscreen, I was cursing coming out of the house the next morning and having to scrape the ice (the frozen water kind ) off the windows before getting into a freezing cold car.

There is a place in Milton Keynes (and probably elsewhere too) that rents out cheap EV's for a few days so you can experience them. Go and try one and stop being a dinosaur, the world is changing and it needs to, you never know, you just might like it

[framerateuk]

otolith said:

Exactly. For your average four cylinder turbo, it's no great loss.

My current Megane has piped audio (though I've turned it off) and while the popping exhaust is fun, it's absolutely faked by the engine management just dumping extra fuel in.

kambites said:

It's going to be interesting because performance is pretty much a byproduct of range with current technology. Hence people like Kia are producing small entirely non-sporty SUV EVs which will do 0-60 in under 8 seconds.

Assuming I can eke another two or three years out of our ailing Skoda, I can't see us buying another ICE powered family car.

I remember saying a few years ago I thought my then car would be my last petrol only car, but things haven't quite moved as fast as I expected.

Once they start really trying to get performance out of these, or maybe more importantly, engineering a feeling of fun/involvement into them, things should start to get interesting!

[RacerMike]

MrBig said:

framerateuk said:

An incredibly un-pistonheads thing to say, but I'm looking forward to seeing electric only drivetrains appear in everyday hatchbacks, and seeing what the hot-hatchbacks end up being like.

I can see why people are upset over loosing the ICE, but the reality is we're very close to that point and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes from it. We're already at the point where we're faking engine noise in fast cars anyway. I will miss the howl of a highly strung engine at full chat though!

100% with you. There are a lot of people on here who forget that the vast majority of journeys, and hence car purchases, are because people need to go places. Not because they like the noise of a throbbing 8 cylinder. The simple fact of the matter is economics. Look how many people went blindly to diesel because they heard it was cheaper. Once pure EVs come down in price, they will be everywhere. And you know what, I don't care. As someone running a PHEV as a company car, I'm totally converted. All my short journeys and weekend running around are done on electric. I don't 'miss' using the petrol engine, in the same way I don't miss having a manual gearbox.

As long as they don't ban us having an ICE weekend car for the occasional run out, I couldn't care less what powers my daily. In fact when I had to leave the GTE at work the other week when it was having a new windscreen, I was cursing coming out of the house the next morning and having to scrape the ice (the frozen water kind ) off the windows before getting into a freezing cold car.

There is a place in Milton Keynes (and probably elsewhere too) that rents out cheap EV's for a few days so you can experience them. Go and try one and stop being a dinosaur, the world is changing and it needs to, you never know, you just might like it

Agree with all of this. The fear of change is far worse than the reality. Having spent a lot of time driving the I Pace over the last two years, I'm fully converted. There are some aspects of EVs that are just incredible, and it's not just the acceleration. I'm genuinely excited to see what comes out in the next 5 years....as long as we can still drive our ICE cars at weekends!

[lyonspride]

RacerMike said:

I'm genuinely excited to see what comes out in the next 5 years....as long as we can still drive our ICE cars at weekends!

But the charging issue isn't going to go away, most people cannot charge an EV at home, and the size of a public fuel station style charging area would be entirely impossible, it would have to cater for hundreds of EVs for hours at a time (where as 100's of ICE vehicles can easily pass through a small petrol station in the space of an hour). You'd need an area the size of a football pitch to serve just one small housing estate.
We're just going to end up in a situation where this whole thing becomes a tax on the poorest communities.