RE: 720hp Ferrari F8 Tributo replaces 488 GTB
Discussion
garyhun said:
It’s irrelevant where a specific car is in its own manufacturers range. All that matters is that when comparing models between manufacturers, you choose the models that are clearly competitors be that price, power or whatever.
Clearly the F8 is direct competition for the 720S.
True - Still doesn't detract from the point that the F8 is pretty much the baby of the range, but matches the car that is pretty much the top of the McLaren range!Clearly the F8 is direct competition for the 720S.
Carl_Manchester said:
Ares said:
I guess you can make the argument for any car. Is the cost of going from one 3-series to the next worth it?
As for fitting in new cars, they have, and if we are led to believe, still are. California/Portofino & FF/GTC are relatively new entrants (granted that was just a reworking of the 456/612 2+2). Add in the FUV incoming, and the rumoured Dino comes the fore that see a doubling of the model range since 2008.
Also don't think you can make a VFM argument over a different car. Is a 911 worth 100% more than a Cayman? Is an Merc S65 worth £150,000 over a Merc C180? (or £160,000 over a Ford Mondeo).
I don't want to stretch the point too far, the 911 has a clear differentiator against a Cayman, same for C180 vs a S65 but i will stick with the Cayman GTS comparison, it will be interesting to see if a back2back drive with the upcoming Cayman GT4 against this new Ferrari on UK Roads proves the point somewhat.As for fitting in new cars, they have, and if we are led to believe, still are. California/Portofino & FF/GTC are relatively new entrants (granted that was just a reworking of the 456/612 2+2). Add in the FUV incoming, and the rumoured Dino comes the fore that see a doubling of the model range since 2008.
Also don't think you can make a VFM argument over a different car. Is a 911 worth 100% more than a Cayman? Is an Merc S65 worth £150,000 over a Merc C180? (or £160,000 over a Ford Mondeo).
Geek point of note, there are actually a fair chunk less 718 Cayman GTS on the UK roads than Ferrari 488's. Not saying the Cayman is an exclusive exotic or anything but I don't know where Ferrari are going with their range, they need something a bit less monstrous.
re: Ferrari V8s not being a poseurs play-thing, I would like to believe you regarding the Alderley Edge lot but the mileage figures in the classifieds tell their own story and does little to shake the belief that the Ferrari is a A-2-A car, their owners just driving them in a circle rather than using them to tour in. There will always be exceptions to the rule.
I don't think people drive more miles in the Ferrari, the observation is just the 'to be seen' style of driving.
Witness last night in Alderley Edge, outside the Bar & Grill. 19-plate Ferrari GTC parked for 2hrs + and across the road an F12 TdF arrived and driver got out and went into a restaurant, still there when we left 90mins later.
During that same time, several McLarens & Lamborghinis went up and down London Road, plus even more AMGs and R Audis.
Ares said:
Brooking10 said:
Ares said:
isaldiri said:
Ares said:
But....the Mac 720s is pretty much the range topper (Ltd Senna aside). The F8 is pretty much the baby of the range.
If the f8 is the baby of the range what's the portofino? The foetus of the range?
720s is Mac’s Super Series - the second rung on the ladder
Same as this the second rung on the Ferrari ladder
This has two cars between it and the range topper (La Ferrari), and just one car beneath it - Portofino.
The 720 is the top non-ultimate (Senna), and has the 540, 570 and 600 beneath it.
The 540/570/600 point doesn’t hold water either as they are basically levels within a single range a la 911 Turbo, Turbo S, GT3.
If anything Ferrari is playing catch up here, it’s no coincidence that its latest £250-300k mid engined super car has 720bhp .......
I’m baffled by a) your logic and b) the point you are trying to make.
That is rare because I frequently agree with you in both regards.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 3rd March 12:36
Ares said:
garyhun said:
It’s irrelevant where a specific car is in its own manufacturers range. All that matters is that when comparing models between manufacturers, you choose the models that are clearly competitors be that price, power or whatever.
Clearly the F8 is direct competition for the 720S.
True - Still doesn't detract from the point that the F8 is pretty much the baby of the range, but matches the car that is pretty much the top of the McLaren range!Clearly the F8 is direct competition for the 720S.
If McLaren stop producing the sports series tomorrow, or Ferrari stop producing everything ‘above’ the F8, it would have absolutely no bearing on them being competitors.
Suddenly an arbitrary decision would make the 720 the ‘baby’ of the range, but so what?
Brooking10 said:
They are entirely comparable for the very reasons pointed out by Garyhun.
The 540/570/600 point doesn’t hold water either as they are basically levels within a single range a la 911 Turbo, Turbo S, GT3.
If anything Ferrari is playing catch up here, it’s no coincidence that its latest £250-300k mid engined super car has 720bhp .......
I’m baffled by a) your logic and b) the point you are trying to make.
That is rare because I frequently agree with you in both regards.
It was merely a comment, (that the 'pretty much' baby Ferrari now matched the range topping Mac) which seems to get a lot of backlash...The 540/570/600 point doesn’t hold water either as they are basically levels within a single range a la 911 Turbo, Turbo S, GT3.
If anything Ferrari is playing catch up here, it’s no coincidence that its latest £250-300k mid engined super car has 720bhp .......
I’m baffled by a) your logic and b) the point you are trying to make.
That is rare because I frequently agree with you in both regards.
Edited by Brooking10 on Sunday 3rd March 12:36
Ares said:
Brooking10 said:
Burwood said:
720 ponies. The standard one. Fk me. What a beast. mclaren take note
ErmThis is a direct competitor to the standard 720s and has caught up with its power output.
Ares said:
Brooking10 said:
They are entirely comparable for the very reasons pointed out by Garyhun.
The 540/570/600 point doesn’t hold water either as they are basically levels within a single range a la 911 Turbo, Turbo S, GT3.
If anything Ferrari is playing catch up here, it’s no coincidence that its latest £250-300k mid engined super car has 720bhp .......
I’m baffled by a) your logic and b) the point you are trying to make.
That is rare because I frequently agree with you in both regards.
It was merely a comment, (that the 'pretty much' baby Ferrari now matched the range topping Mac) which seems to get a lot of backlash...The 540/570/600 point doesn’t hold water either as they are basically levels within a single range a la 911 Turbo, Turbo S, GT3.
If anything Ferrari is playing catch up here, it’s no coincidence that its latest £250-300k mid engined super car has 720bhp .......
I’m baffled by a) your logic and b) the point you are trying to make.
That is rare because I frequently agree with you in both regards.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 3rd March 12:36
Ares said:
Brooking10 said:
Burwood said:
720 ponies. The standard one. Fk me. What a beast. mclaren take note
ErmThis is a direct competitor to the standard 720s and has caught up with its power output.
ks garyhun said:
Ares said:
garyhun said:
It’s irrelevant where a specific car is in its own manufacturers range. All that matters is that when comparing models between manufacturers, you choose the models that are clearly competitors be that price, power or whatever.
Clearly the F8 is direct competition for the 720S.
True - Still doesn't detract from the point that the F8 is pretty much the baby of the range, but matches the car that is pretty much the top of the McLaren range!Clearly the F8 is direct competition for the 720S.
If McLaren stop producing the sports series tomorrow, or Ferrari stop producing everything ‘above’ the F8, it would have absolutely no bearing on them being competitors.
Suddenly an arbitrary decision would make the 720 the ‘baby’ of the range, but so what?
If McLaren suddenly brings in two different models above the 720 that would be similarly significant.
Ares said:
Defence of the McLaren is strong. The historically baby Ferrari now being 720bhp is still a pretty significant thing. The fact that it 'only matches' other manufacturer's top models is the irrelevance. Should they have made it 721bhp just to make a point?
If McLaren suddenly brings in two different models above the 720 that would be similarly significant.
It’s not defence of anything it’s just pointing out that surely price and market positioning are significantly more relevant points of comparison than where it sits in a manufacturers’ range ?If McLaren suddenly brings in two different models above the 720 that would be similarly significant.
The ranges aren’t even comparable irrespective of number of rungs - Ferrari for example has three GT cars whereas Mclaren has none.
Brooking10 said:
Ares said:
Defence of the McLaren is strong. The historically baby Ferrari now being 720bhp is still a pretty significant thing. The fact that it 'only matches' other manufacturer's top models is the irrelevance. Should they have made it 721bhp just to make a point?
If McLaren suddenly brings in two different models above the 720 that would be similarly significant.
It’s not defence of anything it’s just pointing out that surely price and market positioning are significantly more relevant points of comparison than where it sits in a manufacturers’ range ?If McLaren suddenly brings in two different models above the 720 that would be similarly significant.
The ranges aren’t even comparable irrespective of number of rungs - Ferrari for example has three GT cars whereas Mclaren has none.
Surely just another car for posers in the vast majority of cases.
Sure there may be a few owners who take them out to Germany or on track days to use the performance but 90% will be pootling round cities and spend most of there time parked outside Harrods or some posh hotel or restaurant.
There are 118 second hand 488’s advertised on Autotrader (which seems rather a lot as there are for example only 234 Mazda Mx5’s from the same period).
Assuming, for the purpose of the exercise, that all the cars were registered mid year, the stated mileages indicate an average miles per year of 1700. This is London to Brighton once per month. I rest my case.
Sure there may be a few owners who take them out to Germany or on track days to use the performance but 90% will be pootling round cities and spend most of there time parked outside Harrods or some posh hotel or restaurant.
There are 118 second hand 488’s advertised on Autotrader (which seems rather a lot as there are for example only 234 Mazda Mx5’s from the same period).
Assuming, for the purpose of the exercise, that all the cars were registered mid year, the stated mileages indicate an average miles per year of 1700. This is London to Brighton once per month. I rest my case.
Ares said:
E65Ross said:
Ares said:
If McLaren suddenly brings in two different models above the 720 that would be similarly significant.
Senna and Speedtail?OK, if you include ultimate/limited (ie Senna/La Ferrari), then three.
Ares said:
garyhun said:
Ares said:
garyhun said:
It’s irrelevant where a specific car is in its own manufacturers range. All that matters is that when comparing models between manufacturers, you choose the models that are clearly competitors be that price, power or whatever.
Clearly the F8 is direct competition for the 720S.
True - Still doesn't detract from the point that the F8 is pretty much the baby of the range, but matches the car that is pretty much the top of the McLaren range!Clearly the F8 is direct competition for the 720S.
If McLaren stop producing the sports series tomorrow, or Ferrari stop producing everything ‘above’ the F8, it would have absolutely no bearing on them being competitors.
Suddenly an arbitrary decision would make the 720 the ‘baby’ of the range, but so what?
If McLaren suddenly brings in two different models above the 720 that would be similarly significant.
I really don’t get the points been made if I’m honest
In my mind and a lot of journalists minds and even manufacturers minds they are competitors
458–12c/650s
488-720s
F8-720s
I personally think Ferrari are playing catch-up
The 12c/650 annilihated ghe 458
And the 720 has done the same to the 488 and probably the f8
McLaren have also made significant risks on design whereas the f8 is just a facelift 488 which was a facelift 458! I’m more concerned why Ferrari aren’t bringing a revolutionary model like McLaren did with the 720,
In my mind and a lot of journalists minds and even manufacturers minds they are competitors
458–12c/650s
488-720s
F8-720s
I personally think Ferrari are playing catch-up
The 12c/650 annilihated ghe 458
And the 720 has done the same to the 488 and probably the f8
McLaren have also made significant risks on design whereas the f8 is just a facelift 488 which was a facelift 458! I’m more concerned why Ferrari aren’t bringing a revolutionary model like McLaren did with the 720,
A lot on here talk about the fact these cars aren't used, and that all they do is get driven to restaurants by their owners;
These are rarely the owners only cars, so if they get taken on a road trip once or twice a year, that may only be 2-3k miles per year. If they just go to track days, then it will be even less.
If an owner thinks they have investment potential, then maybe they will just be locked away. As has been shown on the other thread about the delivery mileage 458 however, this doesn't always work out.
If someone wants to drive his car to dinner, and take more than an hour eating, then maybe they are having a good time!
As yet Corbyn isn't in power, and fortunately we can do whatever we like with our possessions. Would anyone on here have it any other way?
These are rarely the owners only cars, so if they get taken on a road trip once or twice a year, that may only be 2-3k miles per year. If they just go to track days, then it will be even less.
If an owner thinks they have investment potential, then maybe they will just be locked away. As has been shown on the other thread about the delivery mileage 458 however, this doesn't always work out.
If someone wants to drive his car to dinner, and take more than an hour eating, then maybe they are having a good time!
As yet Corbyn isn't in power, and fortunately we can do whatever we like with our possessions. Would anyone on here have it any other way?
Robert-nszl1 said:
A lot on here talk about the fact these cars aren't used, and that all they do is get driven to restaurants by their owners;
These are rarely the owners only cars, so if they get taken on a road trip once or twice a year, that may only be 2-3k miles per year. If they just go to track days, then it will be even less.
If an owner thinks they have investment potential, then maybe they will just be locked away. As has been shown on the other thread about the delivery mileage 458 however, this doesn't always work out.
If someone wants to drive his car to dinner, and take more than an hour eating, then maybe they are having a good time!
As yet Corbyn isn't in power, and fortunately we can do whatever we like with our possessions. Would anyone on here have it any other way?
Agreed .... I'm guessing almost all of the detractors on PH who rant against low mileage supercars pootling around Knightsbridge ... and for that matter against all those school run mummies parking their posh 4x4s on the pavement - are nothing more than envious twunts.These are rarely the owners only cars, so if they get taken on a road trip once or twice a year, that may only be 2-3k miles per year. If they just go to track days, then it will be even less.
If an owner thinks they have investment potential, then maybe they will just be locked away. As has been shown on the other thread about the delivery mileage 458 however, this doesn't always work out.
If someone wants to drive his car to dinner, and take more than an hour eating, then maybe they are having a good time!
As yet Corbyn isn't in power, and fortunately we can do whatever we like with our possessions. Would anyone on here have it any other way?
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