RE: PH Meets: Lanzante's F1-engined Porsche 930
Discussion
I love the whole idea for its sheer madness but I can't help but wonder from an engineering perspective how much of the original engine will be left. Obviously all the bolt ons from headers, turbos, wastegate, intercooler?, ecu!, water pump, alternator, starter will all be new But I thought back in the day the internals were almost interference fit; ie the engine needed pre heating to expand parts to tolerance before you could even start them? What's left of the original engine?
C.MW said:
How it feels like to drive it will be another story, but this for me is the most astonishing car project I've seen in a long time. Like any car nut, at one point I wondered how manic an F1-engined road car will be and now this comes to life. Just wow. I also like that it looks clean and original inside and out, unlike lavish random bits put together called 'reimagined' by Singer.
100% this. Edited by C.MW on Saturday 9th March 12:31
RM said:
McLaren are were famous for not selling off F1 bits, this has only happened as they agreed to sell the engines to Lazante in a job lot.
Corrected that for you. Ron Dennis would have chained himself to the heritage workshop to stop people getting in, but since he was ousted Zak Brown has been selling off the family silver in an effort to balance the books.big_rob_sydney said:
The thing is, its not in qualifying trim. It is what it is; 500 horses. If I won the lottery, I'd have XY and Z, but guess what? Some people need to live in the real world, not in their make believe fantasy land.
I don't care what it *could* have. I'm more interested in what it *does* have.
Really don't understand what some people aren't getting here...
Do you think this is the real world?I don't care what it *could* have. I'm more interested in what it *does* have.
Really don't understand what some people aren't getting here...
An F1 engined 911 Turbo for a million pounds?
This is pure fantasy land for people who have limitless wealth.
I understand what you’re saying re only 500 bhp but that is missing the point.
At it’s core, this is a cool car with a distinct point of difference.
It’s not for the likes of us so the price is irrelevant.
Why is a 250GTO worth 30 million when a SWB is only worth 7 million?
If you try and apply logic in this sector nothing makes sense.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Is it not a great drive?How do you know?
Besides, what is your definition of a great drive?
And is the same as mine?
An F40 by many objective criteria may not be a great drive. Epic turbo lag, peaky power delivery and brakes which struggle to cope may be seen as negatives by some but for others it makes the car all the more challenging and engaging.
You may look at the spec sheet for this 911 and struggle to see the appeal whereas I simply adore it.
No right or wrong here - just different strokes for different folks.
Sadly I won’t be one of the lucky few who gets to find out.
Edited by Maldini35 on Monday 11th March 13:37
Maldini35 said:
Is it not a great drive?
How can you be so sure?
No reason it shouldn't be. 500bhp is not madness, well ok it's slightly mad in a 930 but not beyond the ability of many potential customers with suitable chassis mods and with modern turbo management that power delivery can be as friendly as you like. I imagine it will be comically good fun to drive.How can you be so sure?
Maldini35 said:
big_rob_sydney said:
The thing is, its not in qualifying trim. It is what it is; 500 horses. If I won the lottery, I'd have XY and Z, but guess what? Some people need to live in the real world, not in their make believe fantasy land.
I don't care what it *could* have. I'm more interested in what it *does* have.
Really don't understand what some people aren't getting here...
Do you think this is the real world?I don't care what it *could* have. I'm more interested in what it *does* have.
Really don't understand what some people aren't getting here...
An F1 engined 911 Turbo for a million pounds?
This is pure fantasy land for people who have limitless wealth.
I understand what you’re saying re only 500 bhp but that is missing the point.
At it’s core, this is a cool car with a distinct point of difference.
It’s not for the likes of us so the price is irrelevant.
Why is a 250GTO worth 30 million when a SWB is only worth 7 million?
If you try and apply logic in this sector nothing makes sense.
For "people with limitless wealth", presumably they too live in the real world, just that their experience is somewhat different.
You're using the rather tenuous point to excuse a number of "real" factors. If you stick this very real engine onto a very real dyno, you will get a very real 500 horses.
And this is a "real" car, which presumably drives on "real" roads, using "real" petrol.
Nothing about that is "unreal".
Although I will agree with you, I don't personally believe it makes sense. That said, don't give it a free pass due to the sheer brass balls of the price. Just because they wish to charge like wounded bulls for their Frankenstein creation, doesn't, by and of itself, mean anything, other than, potentially, being sucked in the the marketing and PR.
People know the price of everything, but the value of nothing...
Are people forgetting that this latest run of cars are based on the specification of an original 'one off' mule that was used to try out the TAG Porsche engines?
"Back in the 1980s, Porsche supplied twin-turbo V6 Formula 1 engines to the McLaren Formula 1 team under the TAG brand name. A single Porsche 930 was built with this engine, unmodified from F1 spec as a test mule. That car, mostly stock from the outside save for some Ruf-sourced wheels, remained a one-off, kept in museums and shown at various events throughout the years."
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a23706900...
So these are really continuations of that concept or theme and hence the combination of parts that Lanzante are bringing together for 11 lucky (rich) punters. That's why they don't have modern V6 VAG turbo engines or the like in them and why they haven't been 'Singerised'. They are recreations using as many real bits that are left, with new parts to make them a little more reliable on the road (or the slope up to the owners private showroom....)
"Back in the 1980s, Porsche supplied twin-turbo V6 Formula 1 engines to the McLaren Formula 1 team under the TAG brand name. A single Porsche 930 was built with this engine, unmodified from F1 spec as a test mule. That car, mostly stock from the outside save for some Ruf-sourced wheels, remained a one-off, kept in museums and shown at various events throughout the years."
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a23706900...
So these are really continuations of that concept or theme and hence the combination of parts that Lanzante are bringing together for 11 lucky (rich) punters. That's why they don't have modern V6 VAG turbo engines or the like in them and why they haven't been 'Singerised'. They are recreations using as many real bits that are left, with new parts to make them a little more reliable on the road (or the slope up to the owners private showroom....)
big_rob_sydney said:
Your points are illogical.
For "people with limitless wealth", presumably they too live in the real world, just that their experience is somewhat different.
You're using the rather tenuous point to excuse a number of "real" factors. If you stick this very real engine onto a very real dyno, you will get a very real 500 horses.
And this is a "real" car, which presumably drives on "real" roads, using "real" petrol.
Nothing about that is "unreal".
Although I will agree with you, I don't personally believe it makes sense. That said, don't give it a free pass due to the sheer brass balls of the price. Just because they wish to charge like wounded bulls for their Frankenstein creation, doesn't, by and of itself, mean anything, other than, potentially, being sucked in the the marketing and PR.
People know the price of everything, but the value of nothing...
Illogical Captain!For "people with limitless wealth", presumably they too live in the real world, just that their experience is somewhat different.
You're using the rather tenuous point to excuse a number of "real" factors. If you stick this very real engine onto a very real dyno, you will get a very real 500 horses.
And this is a "real" car, which presumably drives on "real" roads, using "real" petrol.
Nothing about that is "unreal".
Although I will agree with you, I don't personally believe it makes sense. That said, don't give it a free pass due to the sheer brass balls of the price. Just because they wish to charge like wounded bulls for their Frankenstein creation, doesn't, by and of itself, mean anything, other than, potentially, being sucked in the the marketing and PR.
People know the price of everything, but the value of nothing...
Ok - the point I was making is I don’t think this car should not be judged rationally on numbers alone.
Eg. 500bhp
Without wanting to put words into your mouth I think you are saying that you disagree and think 500 bhp is a poor return for the list price and therefore don’t see the ‘value’ in the project. It’s just marketing/PR nonsense.
I understand but disagree.
I just find your reductionist position a little cold.
Logical? Probably
Financially sound? Certainly
But projects like this are driven by passion and seldom make sense.
Think of it as automotive art.
Art doesn’t make sense and serves no real purpose but it’s something that defines us as human.
Put it this way, if you were in the pub and a mate came in and said there was an old 911 in the car park with an F1 engine in the back.
Would you:
A: Go and take a look?
Or
B: Immediately ask him how much it cost and what the power output was before deciding whether to have a peek?
If the answer’s B then I think you might be part Vulcan.
Besides, if you’ll never have to pay for one, why get hung up on the price?
Surely that’s illogical?
Edited by Maldini35 on Monday 11th March 15:20
Whatsmyname said:
Back in the 80s it was common for an engine to grenade after one use in qualifying, I'd imagine they went through a lot of motors and as far as the original car fitted with the original engine it will just be in the state of the last race the car ever did I'd imagine.
I wonder how many engines a team used on a season back then? Perhaps the plaque should say how many races the cam covers have done? the crankcases will have had to be changed as they wont have had a long service life so would make no sense to reuse in a road car.
Great engineering though, I'd be far more interested in owning one of these than the latest superhypermegacar that gets release every other day.
That's what I thought. Guess the only part of the engine that could have been used in the races stated on the plaque is the block? Although I cant imagine they even used the same block for more than two races. I wonder how many engines a team used on a season back then? Perhaps the plaque should say how many races the cam covers have done? the crankcases will have had to be changed as they wont have had a long service life so would make no sense to reuse in a road car.
Great engineering though, I'd be far more interested in owning one of these than the latest superhypermegacar that gets release every other day.
Edited by thiscocks on Monday 11th March 16:33
Love this as a concept, there's just something that seems more tangible as it's still 930-shaped. Although a Ruf CTR will forever have a greater hold of my heart, despite being narrow-bodied
sprintevo said:
A more real world alternative would be the v6 turbo from the B5 audi S and RS4 - wont rev as high, but is capable of the same power with a mild tune and far more real world parts wise...
Only just, with the way older RS-parts are going NLA Maldini35 said:
Illogical Captain!
Ok - the point I was making is I don’t think this car should not be judged rationally on numbers alone.
Eg. 500bhp
Without wanting to put words into your mouth I think you are saying that you disagree and think 500 bhp is a poor return for the list price and therefore don’t see the ‘value’ in the project. It’s just marketing/PR nonsense.
I understand but disagree.
I just find your reductionist position a little cold.
Logical? Probably
Financially sound? Certainly
But projects like this are driven by passion and seldom make sense.
Think of it as automotive art.
Art doesn’t make sense and serves no real purpose but it’s something that defines us as human.
Put it this way, if you were in the pub and a mate came in and said there was an old 911 in the car park with an F1 engine in the back.
Would you:
A: Go and take a look?
Or
B: Immediately ask him how much it cost and what the power output was before deciding whether to have a peek?
If the answer’s B then I think you might be part Vulcan.
Besides, if you’ll never have to pay for one, why get hung up on the price?
Surely that’s illogical?
I have conducted a regression analysis on your comments about my Vulcan heritage, and have chosen to perceive them as a compliment.Ok - the point I was making is I don’t think this car should not be judged rationally on numbers alone.
Eg. 500bhp
Without wanting to put words into your mouth I think you are saying that you disagree and think 500 bhp is a poor return for the list price and therefore don’t see the ‘value’ in the project. It’s just marketing/PR nonsense.
I understand but disagree.
I just find your reductionist position a little cold.
Logical? Probably
Financially sound? Certainly
But projects like this are driven by passion and seldom make sense.
Think of it as automotive art.
Art doesn’t make sense and serves no real purpose but it’s something that defines us as human.
Put it this way, if you were in the pub and a mate came in and said there was an old 911 in the car park with an F1 engine in the back.
Would you:
A: Go and take a look?
Or
B: Immediately ask him how much it cost and what the power output was before deciding whether to have a peek?
If the answer’s B then I think you might be part Vulcan.
Besides, if you’ll never have to pay for one, why get hung up on the price?
Surely that’s illogical?
Edited by Maldini35 on Monday 11th March 15:20
However, I would simply ask you this: I can measure and define an engine on a dyno; how do YOU measure and define art?
Edited by big_rob_sydney on Monday 11th March 19:46
blade7 said:
sprintevo said:
A more real world alternative would be the v6 turbo from the B5 audi S and RS4 - wont rev as high, but is capable of the same power with a mild tune and far more real world parts wise...
Much rather a Porsche Mezger turbo engine.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff