RE: Tesla Model Y released

[ntiz]

st4 said:

Ares said:

In the real world it isn't though. 5mins in an ICE gets you 300-500 miles.....but your 5 mins in stood in the cold in a smelly petrol station before you then drive away, park elsewhere to have a piss - totally time 15-20mins.


With an EV, you park, plug in and your 5 mins is spent having the same piss, and the additional 10-15 mins persuading your kids that they don't need another magazine/buying food/getting a drink/perving at the hen party/etc adds another 150 miles.

Add in that of the minute number of people that regularly drive 300+ miles, few do it without at least one 20-30min break.

The EV might not be the optimum only car for a family, but as a second car, or prime car supplemented by a 2nd ICE the time is now, and getting ever more valid.

Good point well made.

This is about right went to see the in-laws at the weekend one stop of 30 mins no big deal 200 mile journey. The problem is when I get there I have to embarrassingly ask to plug in to my hot rod muscle car building father in laws house

The problems come when those stops become multiple in a trip starts to add up like when I have business in Manchester we are talking 4 stops of around 30-40 mins just a bit inconvenient.

It will improve though I have faith in that this is just the beginning. I must confess though I have had long distance meeting last week and another tomorrow I’m choosing to take my Bentley as they are long days anyway and the charging just makes them longer.

I am the exception to the rule most don’t have these requirements.

There appears to be 2 types of owners those that get on with them and love them will never go back to ICE. Then those who have struggled and can’t wait to get back to an ICE I’m currently the latter but have friends in both camps. They are good cars just not perfect for everyone.

It’s good to have a choice and it’s making the industry really interesting. Genuinely exciting time at the moment with lots of new concepts and ideas coming out.

[donteatpeople]

bodhi said:

Ares said:

I was in the US in January. I hired a GMC Yukon XL. I carried me and my 6 passengers, plus their luggage from the airport and around for 3 weeks. My journeys were pleasant, anxious free and could not have been achieved in the Alfa I have at home.

Later that same month, I was invited on a corporate track day. We were given Caterham 270s. My driving experience was pleasant, anxious free and could not have been achieved in the GMC Yukon XL.

In February I was in a very cold snow covered Canada for a 4 day business trip. My client drove Mercedes G550. My journey was pleasant, anxious free and could not have been achieved in the Caterham 270.

Also in February, I had to drive 200 miles carrying 8 bikes in bike boxes plus 2 passengers. I hired a LWB Mercedes Sprinter. My journey was pleasant, anxious free and could not have been achieved in the G550.

Last weekend, I had to visit my parents along with my wife, daughter, her friend and our dog. We took my Alfa. My journey was pleasant, anxious free and could not have been achieved in the Merc Sprinter.

Next month I am going to Majorca on a cycling training camp, with 2 of my bikes. I am travelling in a plane. I predict my journey will be pleasant, anxious free and could not be achieved in any of the cars above.


Thank fk for a wide choice of vehicles to suits each persons individual needs.

Difference is GMC Yukon and Caterham owners tend to get less tetchy when you point out their cars wouldn't work for you

I’d predict the tetchiness to be proportional to the repetitiveness of the complaint. Not many people feel the need to go to Caterham threads to point out that they’re not well suited to winter business trips. Personally I’ve never seen a thread on the GMC Yukon but I’d bet the on track performance doesn’t get discussed often. On the other hand I don’t think there’s been a BEV news topic in PH history that hasn’t been followed by at least one person telling a story about how they’ve recently been on a long journey that would have been inconvenient in a BEV.

[Ares]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Really? You never fill up before setting off to save journey time? Or avoid having to stop at expensive, smelly, slow, chav-filled motorway services stations?

I've done 340 miles today, mostly M6 & M1. I filled up last night, brimmed so that I wouldn't have to stop at all today other than for meetings. Standard practice for me ahead of long journeys.

[04helipilot]

Zumbruk said:

Hear, hear. Anything that you have to look at to operate in a car is a disaster waiting to happen.

Really, let the car drive itself then have a look at the screen.

[smilo996]

That is quick for a jelly mould.

[T-195]

Ares said:

Really? You never fill up before setting off to save journey time? Or avoid having to stop at expensive, smelly, slow, chav-filled motorway services stations?

So only Chavs drive ICE engined cars these days.

Slow? Faster than charging up an EV.

Smelly? Whatever.

That's a classic.


Expensive?

Yes, I never buy fuel on the motorway.,

[Ares]

T-195 said:

Ares said:

Really? You never fill up before setting off to save journey time? Or avoid having to stop at expensive, smelly, slow, chav-filled motorway services stations?

So only Chavs drive ICE engined cars these days.

Slow? Faster than charging up an EV.

Smelly? Whatever.

That's a classic.


Expensive?

Yes, I never buy fuel on the motorway.,

Sorry, I'm sure you're making a point there somewhere, but I'm screwed if I can find it

I was talking about filling my car (500bhp ICE) up with fuel (petrol, SUL, not Electricity) so I don't have to stop on an infrequent longer journey.

FWIW, I couldn't have done my journey yesterday in an EV without diverting to a charging point and wasting the same kind of time I would have done if I'd stopped to put petrol in my car.

[Baldchap]

AshD said:

Robert-nszl1 said:

RobDickinson said:

I know plenty of people who have multiple Teslas.

They though on the whole are not made quite as well as audi but..

Etron, $74,800, range 248, 2.6 miles per kWh, 0-60 5.5s,140 mph, 150kw charging

iPace, $69500, range 234, 2.6 miles per kWh, 0-60 4.5s,124mph, 100kw charging

Model Y,$60,000, range 280, 3.73 miles per kWh,0-60 3.5s,150mph, 250kw charging.

Teslas have a fair advantage over the competition.

Compare against a Porsche macan turbo comp etc too... $90,000 4.1s 0-60 etc

Except the model Y can't be bought yet, whereas the others can. By the time it's for sale the game will have moved on everywhere. It would certainly appear Tesla battery tech is industry leading, but most of the range is very expensive. At the moment people are only moving tentatively towards all electric (in most parts of the world), and this period of transition is allowing the conventional manufacturers to slowly move their customers over. As Lotus (for example) have found, performance alone won't win you the market, quality also matters.

You say you know people with multiple Teslas. Maybe, but I've certainly picked up that people that have owned them aren't making repeat purchases. Maybe you work for Tesla (you seem to have an obsessive regard for their cars) ..... Either way my sense is that Tesla will face rather more competition beyond the US, and if it can't improve quality, then they will struggle to persuade people to move over to their brand.

CEO of the business I work for is on his 2nd Model S, CFO is on his 2nd Model S, I’ve had a Model S and have a reservation on a Model 3.

Model Y battery tech is the same as Model 3, so the stats above relate to that and its been on sale for some time.

Quality does matter though and I can tell you from seeing multiple Model S’s that the build quality has been getting better and better.

Other than me, I don't know a Tesla owner that is on their first, and as an owner, I have met quite a few others at service time/chargers etc. They definitely attract repeat business.

I'm not a fanboi, I think they'll go south when the big boys get firmly into the marketplace. They deserve to for the auto wiper and headlight implementation.

[Ransoman]

skint_driver said:

For those that think ICE vehicles have a long future...
When change starts happening, people overestimate what will happen in 1 year but underestimate what will happen in 10.

The Benz "Horseless carriage" was invented in 1885 which was 15 years before that picture. your pictures only demonstrate the effect that mass production had on the impact of car sales.

The first ever production electric car was actually built in 1884, 1 year before the Benz. Electric cars have been around for as long as the combustion engined powered vehicle. Why would anyone thing the ICE vehicles days are numbered?

I like electric cars, I will likely have one as a daily within the next 10 years, but ICE is not and won't be dead for a very long time. 20 years from now electric will be like diesel is today, one of many available power train options.

[Ares]

Ransoman said:

The Benz "Horseless carriage" was invented in 1885 which was 15 years before that picture. your pictures only demonstrate the effect that mass production had on the impact of car sales.

The first ever production electric car was actually built in 1884, 1 year before the Benz. Electric cars have been around for as long as the combustion engined powered vehicle. Why would anyone thing the ICE vehicles days are numbered?

I like electric cars, I will likely have one as a daily within the next 10 years, but ICE is not and won't be dead for a very long time. 20 years from now electric will be like diesel is today, one of many available power train options.

Fossil fuels are signalling the end of the ICE, not alternative technology.

[unsprung]

Ransoman said:

20 years from now electric will be like diesel is today, one of many available power train options.

yes, apparently, but not everywhere

if you want to live in an advanced / OECD country, there is still a choice to make

a few will embrace the battery-electric vehicle (BEV) as a part of a heterogeneous landscape of powertrains (including ICE); most will proceed to a near-monopoly of the BEV

the former with an element of consumer choice; the latter with a predominance of top-down regulation

source here
http://www.fullertreacymoney.com/system/data/files...

[Ransoman]

Ares said:

Fossil fuels are signalling the end of the ICE, not alternative technology.

Are these the same fossil fuels that today, we are told we have around 40 years of viable production left. 40 years ago, we were also told that we have 40 years of viable production left?

I don't think Fossil fuels are an infinite resource, but they will be around a hell of a lot longer than you think. By the time it becomes too rare and expensive to extract we will have viable alternatives such as Biofuels.

[Baldchap]

Ransoman said:

I don't think Fossil fuels are an infinite resource, but they will be around a hell of a lot longer than you think. By the time it becomes too rare and expensive to extract we will have viable alternatives such as Biofuels.

Or electric...

[Baldchap]

Say and think what you want about electric or Tesla, but I just read they're rolling out a range and power upgrade remotely to all model 3s.

That is pretty darn brilliant. Like OTA remaps!

[Ransoman]

Baldchap said:

Or electric...

yep... I didn't deny that.

[Talksteer]

Ransoman said:

The Benz "Horseless carriage" was invented in 1885 which was 15 years before that picture. your pictures only demonstrate the effect that mass production had on the impact of car sales.

The first ever production electric car was actually built in 1884, 1 year before the Benz. Electric cars have been around for as long as the combustion engined powered vehicle. Why would anyone thing the ICE vehicles days are numbered?

I like electric cars, I will likely have one as a daily within the next 10 years, but ICE is not and won't be dead for a very long time. 20 years from now electric will be like diesel is today, one of many available power train options.

Here is the reason why ICE will be killed off:

Batteries performance currently improves at a rate of around 5-8% per year, the cells in a Model 3 are around 300Wh/kg. This means that the performance doubles every 9-14 years.

Secondly Tesla have managed to achieve a 15% yearly reduction in battery cost, this means that the battery halves in cost every 5 years.

Tesla's I think are the best barometer of the progress of electric cars because no excuses have to be made for their performance vs cars of equivalent cost (see original Leaf or Zoe). With the launch of the $35,000 dollar variant a negligible compromise electric car now costs the same as the average price of a new car in America.

Follow that rate of improvement in 2024 the battery and electric drive train prices will have come down to a level where EV's make better economic sense than ICE cars. By 2029 it won't even close, a 50KWh battery will cost $1250-1500 ICE cars will be niche products.

As today the likely limitation on electric car sales will be availability and scale up, currently the production of EV's doubles every 18 months, approx 2 million will be made this year. Follow that rate and the date a which all new cars will be EV's is 2027.

The 2027 EV will be a straight up better car, cheaper to make and operate than a ICE car and with substantially greater performance.

[Ares]

Talksteer said:

Ransoman said:

The Benz "Horseless carriage" was invented in 1885 which was 15 years before that picture. your pictures only demonstrate the effect that mass production had on the impact of car sales.

The first ever production electric car was actually built in 1884, 1 year before the Benz. Electric cars have been around for as long as the combustion engined powered vehicle. Why would anyone thing the ICE vehicles days are numbered?

I like electric cars, I will likely have one as a daily within the next 10 years, but ICE is not and won't be dead for a very long time. 20 years from now electric will be like diesel is today, one of many available power train options.

Here is the reason why ICE will be killed off:

Batteries performance currently improves at a rate of around 5-8% per year, the cells in a Model 3 are around 300Wh/kg. This means that the performance doubles every 9-14 years.

Secondly Tesla have managed to achieve a 15% yearly reduction in battery cost, this means that the battery halves in cost every 5 years.

Tesla's I think are the best barometer of the progress of electric cars because no excuses have to be made for their performance vs cars of equivalent cost (see original Leaf or Zoe). With the launch of the $35,000 dollar variant a negligible compromise electric car now costs the same as the average price of a new car in America.

Follow that rate of improvement in 2024 the battery and electric drive train prices will have come down to a level where EV's make better economic sense than ICE cars. By 2029 it won't even close, a 50KWh battery will cost $1250-1500 ICE cars will be niche products.

As today the likely limitation on electric car sales will be availability and scale up, currently the production of EV's doubles every 18 months, approx 2 million will be made this year. Follow that rate and the date a which all new cars will be EV's is 2027.

The 2027 EV will be a straight up better car, cheaper to make and operate than a ICE car and with substantially greater performance.

The biggest factor for me is if they can re-insert fun into the drive. At the moment it's all about economics and acceleration. Like an RS6 but duller. Thats fine for the mainstream, but plenty of people still crave an element of fun in the drive. Without it, it's a second car option.

[MDL111]

I hope that - as EVs will without a doubt become the preferred option and legislation will ensure you can't drive many ICE cars into more and more cities anymore and possibly will have to pay high taxes for owning them at all - sports car manufacturers will continue to develop hybrid options, which give us the option to still have an ICE engine, but at the same time adhere to driving restrictions in cities etc.
We will see, interesting times ahead
Am also looking forward to the Taycan next year

[MDL111]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

agreed, but maybe Porsche will surprise us positively (relative to other manufacturers in respect of dynamics, feel and feedback) …. there is hope

[F1GTRUeno]

aarondbs said:

And yes before anyone says it i do a journey like this at least once a week. Last week was Chesterfield to Cardiff and back arriving home at 2am and back in the office for 7am so again a Tesla and an Taxi May have been required!

What a terrible work/life balance.

Something didn't work out as planned did it?