RE: Defender at the Nurburgring!

[Hurricane52]

warch said:

Defender 90s always had quite neat off road manners when the suspension wasn't worn, you could chuck them around quite nicely on a country road. All the weight was quite low down (aluminium superstructure) so you didn't get much body roll. They do motorsport too, usually rallying and hill rallying.

An engineer chap I met did his apprenticeship at Landrover I think in the late sixties early seventies when they had a circuit in the factory backyard. Before the bodywork was stapled and riveted on, they had to test drive the bare chassis with a rudimentary seat. He said being kids at the time, the challenge was to try and tip one over, but no-one could.

[jakesmith]

Looks suspiciously like a Disco to me
Defender - wasn't my thing but absolutely I'd have one as part of the fleet if I lived rural. Not sure on this so far...

[Tom_Spotley_When]

300bhp/ton said:

Interesting video about the new Defender here:
https://youtu.be/Y3kK04fvDRQ

Interesting and hugely bias. The guy's clearly passionate about building 4x4's and taking them to the middle of the Sahara/Empty Quarter/Australia wherever.

Unfortunately, he's also not realised that not everyone who buys a Defender will take it the middle of nowhere. I'd wager well over 90% will be bought new (and lets not forget, Land Rover only really cares about new sales) by middle-class families who want a car that looks cool to go surfing/dog-walking/horse-riding/mountain-biking but also looks cool parked outside a coffee shop/wine bar on the way home.

Just because a tiny percentage of buyers want to drive to the middle of nowhere, doesn't mean Land Rover should build a car that accommodates them. They'll build a car that works for most of their customers, most of the time. That's Kensington High Street, not Eubalong High Street.

People who buy them second or third hand to drive through disused quarries wearing high-vis and with a branch of lighting superstore tacked to the roof might be unhappy. Do they make Land Rover any money? No. Should Land Rover care that they're upset? No.

Will Land Rover sell loads of them? Probably.

Will it take sales off Land Rover models? Maybe, but it'll also bring in a load more sales from people who are currently buying Volvo XC60's, BMW X3's, Merc GLC's etc. Because they're a lifestyle vehicle and all of those fit the lifestyle. They don't care whether it has independent or beam axle suspension, or whether it runs on air or springs.

They'll buy it because it looks good and means they can throw bikes/dogs/horse feed/wetsuits/etc in the boot on a Saturday and drive to work in it on Monday.

I'll be signed up for a short wheelbase one, petrol, auto in kendal green as soon as the waiting list opens.

[Bladedancer]

Tom_Spotley_When said:

Unfortunately, he's also not realised that not everyone who buys a Defender will take it the middle of nowhere. I'd wager well over 90% will be bought new (and lets not forget, Land Rover only really cares about new sales) by middle-class families who want a car that looks cool to go surfing/dog-walking/horse-riding/mountain-biking but also looks cool parked outside a coffee shop/wine bar on the way home.

LR already has Discovery for that, and for those with more cash - Range Rover. Plus the other ones like Evoque and Velar.
To me the whole point of the Defender, as a model, was to be the rugged one that goes to the middle of nowhere.

I don't really care that much, but it seems bizarre that LR has a clearly defined lineup and now they're making all of their cars the same.

[AC123]

Don't think it will tempt many farmers away from the pickups we now all have.

Can't imagine the market for the "defender is good for my image" customer is particularly large either due to so many Land Rover models now.

I have heard £40k base price.

[Tom_Spotley_When]

Bladedancer said:

Tom_Spotley_When said:

Unfortunately, he's also not realised that not everyone who buys a Defender will take it the middle of nowhere. I'd wager well over 90% will be bought new (and lets not forget, Land Rover only really cares about new sales) by middle-class families who want a car that looks cool to go surfing/dog-walking/horse-riding/mountain-biking but also looks cool parked outside a coffee shop/wine bar on the way home.

LR already has Discovery for that, and for those with more cash - Range Rover. Plus the other ones like Evoque and Velar.
To me the whole point of the Defender, as a model, was to be the rugged one that goes to the middle of nowhere.

I don't really care that much, but it seems bizarre that LR has a clearly defined lineup and now they're making all of their cars the same.

Just like they had the Range Rover for people who wanted a more upmarket Defender then released the Discovery? And when they had the Discovery and Range Rover but released the Range Rover Sport?

It'll still be the rugged one, it'll still go anywhere that 95% of new buyers want to take it, but it'll also have room for your right elbow and seals that keep water out.

[Shakermaker]

AC123 said:

Don't think it will tempt many farmers away from the pickups we now all have.

Can't imagine the market for the "defender is good for my image" customer is particularly large either due to so many Land Rover models now.

I have heard £40k base price.

£40k isn't as much money as it used to be, though

Same price as a top spec Skoda Kodiaq, Hyundai Sante Fe etc. These are brands you'd never dream of having £40k cars a decade ago, maybe even 5 years ago.. but now they exist, LR can slot in there as well

[bakerstreet]

A few publicity shots in a desperate attempt to drum up some interest.

LR are going to launch a petrol and diesel engine SUV as Porsche are talking about ditching the ICE in the Megane and the McCan from 2020.

I can't help but feel that the Defender 2 will be too little too late to save JLR.

I am of course looking forward to it and I have even thought about putting a deposit down with a view to leasing one, but we will have to see.

[scottygib553]

Could be the camo but it seems to be freaking massive

[DonkeyApple]

Bloody dangerous trying to drive the Ring with that massive sticker across the windscreen. Crazy.

[anonymous-user]

Tom_Spotley_When said:

The guy's clearly passionate about building 4x4's and taking them to the middle of the Sahara/Empty Quarter/Australia wherever.

The "middle of nowhere" which, when you make it there, you find is full of Toyota's.....


"adventure" off roading requires basic reliability and load carrying capacity above pretty much any amount of actual off road potential. A modern Jap pickup, like say a Dmax will, with a few small mods (tyres!) go pretty much anywhere you'd want to go realistically when "adventuring"


4wd_action_Australia

[Jimbo89]

Cold said:

300bhp/ton said:

Interesting video about the new Defender here:
https://youtu.be/Y3kK04fvDRQ

Got bored of that nonsense very early on. He seems most happy when welding up things with leaf springs while setting the dwell angle on his car's points.
Anything else is far too progressive and modern for him.

+1
The basis of his argument against the car is that he's not capable of modifying it.

[Jimbo89]

Shakermaker said:

AC123 said:

Don't think it will tempt many farmers away from the pickups we now all have.

Can't imagine the market for the "defender is good for my image" customer is particularly large either due to so many Land Rover models now.

I have heard £40k base price.

£40k isn't as much money as it used to be, though

Same price as a top spec Skoda Kodiaq, Hyundai Sante Fe etc. These are brands you'd never dream of having £40k cars a decade ago, maybe even 5 years ago.. but now they exist, LR can slot in there as well

When Ford Fiesta's get into the mid-20's £40k looks reasonable. Low mileage late model Defenders are more than that at the minute and 90% of the Defenders I see for sale are modified Twisted jobbies that are twice that number and more.

The more important question will be what are the Lease and PCP deals like.

[CharlieAlphaMike]

simonbamg said:

we need lap times

[Motormatt]

Jimbo89 said:

Shakermaker said:

AC123 said:

Don't think it will tempt many farmers away from the pickups we now all have.

Can't imagine the market for the "defender is good for my image" customer is particularly large either due to so many Land Rover models now.

I have heard £40k base price.

£40k isn't as much money as it used to be, though

Same price as a top spec Skoda Kodiaq, Hyundai Sante Fe etc. These are brands you'd never dream of having £40k cars a decade ago, maybe even 5 years ago.. but now they exist, LR can slot in there as well

When Ford Fiesta's get into the mid-20's £40k looks reasonable. Low mileage late model Defenders are more than that at the minute and 90% of the Defenders I see for sale are modified Twisted jobbies that are twice that number and more.

The more important question will be what are the Lease and PCP deals like.

I'll be amazed if JLR sells these for a little as £40k. It wont have escaped JLRs attention that there are several successful aftermarket companies churning out Defenders at double that price which indicates where the money is in this market.
I cant see any reason why JLR would be turning out poverty spec models with small margins at £40k when they can charge double that by simply adding some diamond quilted leather inside and painting everything outside black?

[oldtimer2]

Bladedancer said:

Why?

Defender was a real offroader and you usually go test those on cross country tracks and not on the 'ring.
Unless next Defender will be yet another SUV from LR lineup?

Obviously testing the suspension at speed on the Carraciola-Karussell More seriously they will be testing them in off road environments. They do so with all their products. My son-in-law saw some in camouflage at Eastnor last autumn. I have no doubt it will be off road capable. The unknowns are carrying capacity (weight and volume), towing capacity, adaptability of the station wagon, hardtop and pick-up versions to accept/install/bolt on useful gear and/or equipment. Until the specs are released that will be guesswork. If LR follow past practice, they should release such information (with examples) at the launch.

[Jon_S_Rally]

300bhp/ton said:

Interesting video about the new Defender here:
https://youtu.be/Y3kK04fvDRQ

God I bet that bloke would make a thrilling dinner party guest...

[warch]

It depends on the model's position within the range. If the car is much cheaper to make (the old one was horrendously expensive to make) then it could be fairly cheap.


Why are people always sticking the boot in Land Rover for what their cars cost? No one else comes in for this sort of stick.

[sgtBerbatov]

gifdy said:

Looks like a Discovery 3/4. Discovery 5 looks like moving into Range Rover territory. The new Projekt Grenadier looks like an inspired move, slotting in at the bottom of the LR/RR poncy scale where the Defender used to sit.

Quite right. It's more of a Discovery replacement than it is a Defender. It looks like a 6ft 4 farmer can fit in it without removing the seat or opening a window for a start!

[300bhp/ton]

oldtimer2 said:

Obviously testing the suspension at speed on the Carraciola-Karussell More seriously they will be testing them in off road environments. They do so with all their products. My son-in-law saw some in camouflage at Eastnor last autumn. I have no doubt it will be off road capable.

Lets hope they venture off of the Experience tracks though. They are designed to demonstrate the vehicles, not really push them.