RE: Defender at the Nurburgring!

[camel_landy]

DonkeyApple said:

How many people in the UK go off-roading enough to warrant buying a specific vehicle?
Snip...

Don't start this again... Please!

...or create another thread which we can link to as a FAQ!!

M

[Andeh1]

406dogvan said:

If JLR want to avoid going completely bust, they might want to tout this at their traditional customers (rural folks, farmers, workers etc.) surely?

Which probably make up less then 5% of the new 7 seater car market.

I bet less then 1% of the population has ever taken their car "off road". Hell, even the vast majority of the 2016 'bought new' defender market probably never took them anywhere a Ford kuga would struggle with

So many deluded people in this thread! "Make a proper 4x4 for farmers.... "

[Big GT]

406dogvan said:

..- you need to be making cars for regular people.

But this is the problem. LR are making there cars for regular people, the regular Chinees and American's who buy a land rover for the badge and a sprinkling of bling.

Landrover need to make cars for the niche. The Range Rover was for a niche, the Discovery was for a Niche, the defender also. Landover made them the best in the niche and because of this became very desirable hence over the years the market appeal broadened.

However by making them for the General public rather than being the best in the niche they have lost the core values.

the Disco 5 is a prime example. Let hope the new defender doesn't follow the same path.

[300bhp/ton]

camel_landy said:

Good god.. Not those pictures again.

There is no 'Experience Track' but there are lots of tracks available. Where you end up driving is predominantly down to the 'Experience' you buy and confidence you give the instructor in your driving abilities (i.e. The instructor isn't going to take you into the 'challenging' stuff if you've not demonstrated you can control the vehicle).

FWIW - Road tyres are used on pretty much everything there, even the cars using the 'challenging' tracks.

M

Road tyres would be no good in the areas I posted though. I'm not really sure what your exact beef is, but you do seem to have a chip on your shoulder over this.

[NomduJour]

So if you need to wade through mud regularly, put some different tyres on it. That’s what I did, it’s not a difficult concept.

[camel_landy]

300bhp/ton said:

Road tyres would be no good in the areas I posted though. I'm not really sure what your exact beef is, but you do seem to have a chip on your shoulder over this.

Well, seeing as you asked... I just find the whole "I am an off-road driving god" attitude to be a little tedious and frankly arrogant.

E.g. Your statement "Road tyres would be no good in the areas I posted"... Factory spec cars (including tyres) drive the track in your second pic, that's why there are ruts.

FWIW - Compared to aggressive mud-biased tyres, standard tyres make the conditions more 'challenging' but that's where the skill of the driver & the capabilities of the vehicle come into their own.

M

[rxe]

Jag_NE said:

Those people are using Japanese pick ups now. And JLR can make far more money by pitching this at urban dwellers as there are loads more of them and they can’t resist a never ending cycle of pcp/lease every few years. The sheep farmer who buys a defender and runs it for 20 years is a super niche market.

Farmers are using Japanese pickups for two reasons:

- They are cheap and reliable
- They are good to drive as cars when you don't have sheep in the back.

The old trope that Defenders are awful cars is just that - I spent a lot of time in a mate's modern one, and its a perfectly good drive for general duties. I wouldn't choose it over a comfy barge for a 300 mile journey, but I wouldn't be afraid of that journey. In contrast my 91 V8 Defender would be a depressing proposition for such a jaunt.

I don't see why JLR can't make something that merges the Defender qualities (simple, robust) with Japanese pickups (simple, robust). The worry I have about this is that it will turn out to be "Discovery-lite" - which was the whole point of the Discovery in the first place.

[Ed/L152]

A defender on low-profile rims JLR is truly losing the plot.

I assume the rims will come from the factory already curbed?

[300bhp/ton]

DonkeyApple said:

How many people in the UK go off-roading enough to warrant buying a specific vehicle?

Probably a lot more than you think. And certainly more people than those who go on track days and the like, yet car makers seem to cater for that niche market quite well.

Horses


Shooting



Chelsea/Las Vegas, they might not go off road, but still clearly buy a specific off road capable vehicle none the less


Farming

DonkeyApple said:

Out of that incredibly niche group how many and who are the people who satisfy that need by buying a brand new, off the shelf vehicle?

Well, somebody has to buy new vehicles as they don't build 2nd hand ones

[camel_landy]

NomduJour said:

So if you need to wade through mud regularly, put some different tyres on it. That’s what I did, it’s not a difficult concept.

Exactly... It's often not 'impossible' on regular tyres but swapping to something more suited makes life significantly easier.

In the case of the Experience vehicles, standard tyres are better for people who want to learn the skills & techniques (In some ways, it's a bit like going onto a skid-pan).

M

[camel_landy]

300bhp/ton said:

DonkeyApple said:

How many people in the UK go off-roading enough to warrant buying a specific vehicle?

Probably a lot more than you think. And certainly more people than those who go on track days and the like, yet car makers seem to cater for that niche market quite well.

I tend to agree. Not sure about the need for a 'specific vehicle' but certainly a 'multi-purpose' vehicle (like your pictures show).

...and damp grass is one of the most challenging surfaces to be driving on.

But don't forget, LR aren't just looking at the UK market. Despite the pot-holes, we've actually got a pretty decent road network in the UK.

M

Edited by camel_landy on Wednesday 20th March 10:10

[RacerMike]

r.g. said:

As said above:

PUBLICITY.

Nope. Durability. There are plenty running around the roads around Warwickshire if they want publicity.

Cars like the Defender go to the Ring to do accelerative wear testing on engines, gearboxes and drive lines. There really aren’t many other real world environments where you can put a car through the abuse it sees there. It’s precisely why if you go and watch industry pool, 90% of the cars out are Kia Santa Fe’s, Merc E220s, 1.6L Golf’s, Focus’s, G Wagens, MLs, 5 series and Range Rovers.

[300bhp/ton]

camel_landy said:

Well, seeing as you asked... I just find the whole "I am an off-road driving god" attitude to be a little tedious and frankly arrogant.

E.g. Your statement "Road tyres would be no good in the areas I posted"... Factory spec cars (including tyres) drive the track in your second pic, that's why there are ruts.

FWIW - Compared to aggressive mud-biased tyres, standard tyres make the conditions more 'challenging' but that's where the skill of the driver & the capabilities of the vehicle come into their own.

M

I certainly don't claim to be a driving god. I claim to be actively involved in off roading, which I am. Although I haven't done too badly in competitions over the years, so thanks for the compliment.

That said, road tyres simply will not work in some off road activities. I can assure you, you'd have got nowhere on road tyres in either of the pics I posted. It was a challenge with a prepped competition vehicle on very aggressive mud terrains and many got stuck or didn't make it up climbs.

This is no direct reflection on driver ability (although piloting a vehicle on terrain like this does play a major role). But a stock Disco 5 on road tyres would not have driven through most of the sections we were competing on. At the 2015 event the Experience drivers were acting as shuttles round the site in the Experience vehicles for spectators, I had chance to chat with them at length.

I've also driven on muddy terrain with many different types of tyres. The right tyres make something relatively easy, even if the vehicle is less capable. Vs one with road tyres and more sophisticated traction systems.

[Shakermaker]

warch said:

It depends on the model's position within the range. If the car is much cheaper to make (the old one was horrendously expensive to make) then it could be fairly cheap.


Why are people always sticking the boot in Land Rover for what their cars cost? No one else comes in for this sort of stick.

yes they do. Skoda got whacked on here for daring to offer a £45k car and that's just the most recent one I can recall.

I don't think £40k would be too bad for a Defender. As I said, it isn't that much as people think it is. It compares with the new Wrangler.

BUT... its also the base price for a new Discovery. Which makes me think it may be a bit cheaper than £40k. £35k perhaps, similar price to a high spec Ford Ranger perhaps? The £350/month lease market

[ian_cab28]

Agree this is the issue ..defender is the brand anchor yes it can evolve and I agree that Welsh sheep farmers are not a market but without keeping the spirit of the brand alive this model will just cannibalise one of the existing models . JLR needs volume to procure cost effectively and to justify todays development budgets

Big GT said:

But this is the problem. LR are making there cars for regular people, the regular Chinees and American's who buy a land rover for the badge and a sprinkling of bling.

Landrover need to make cars for the niche. The Range Rover was for a niche, the Discovery was for a Niche, the defender also. Landover made them the best in the niche and because of this became very desirable hence over the years the market appeal broadened.

However by making them for the General public rather than being the best in the niche they have lost the core values.

the Disco 5 is a prime example. Let hope the new defender doesn't follow the same path.

[camel_landy]

300bhp/ton said:

I can assure you, you'd have got nowhere on road tyres in either of the pics I posted.

The 2nd pic you would have (you can see the ruts created by the Experience vehicles)... But I've already pointed that out.

M

[camel_landy]

Big GT said:

406dogvan said:

..- you need to be making cars for regular people.

But this is the problem. LR are making there cars for regular people, the regular Chinees and American's who buy a land rover for the badge and a sprinkling of bling.

Landrover need to make cars for the niche. The Range Rover was for a niche, the Discovery was for a Niche, the defender also. Landover made them the best in the niche and because of this became very desirable hence over the years the market appeal broadened.

However by making them for the General public rather than being the best in the niche they have lost the core values.

the Disco 5 is a prime example. Let hope the new defender doesn't follow the same path.

+1...

I firmly believe Land Rover have significantly diluted the brand(s) in trying to cater to the masses.

M

[CS Garth]

camel_landy said:

+1...

I firmly believe Land Rover have significantly diluted the brand(s) in trying to cater to the masses.

M

Had they not they would have folded several years ago so it was a case of moving with the times.

Whilst not palatable to all it is perhaps the least worst option

[camel_landy]

CS Garth said:

camel_landy said:

+1...

I firmly believe Land Rover have significantly diluted the brand(s) in trying to cater to the masses.

M

Had they not they would have folded several years ago so it was a case of moving with the times.

Whilst not palatable to all it is perhaps the least worst option

I'm not sure they would have...
...they certainly wouldn't have expanded as much or been as profitable.

While riding the wave of popularity, it has worked in the short term but I think we're now starting to see the first signs of it biting them in the backside. But that's a different subject and we're deviating (heaven forbid!!) from the subject of a Defender at he Nurburgring.

M

Edited by camel_landy on Wednesday 20th March 11:31

[DonkeyApple]

To get things back on track. Here’s a chappie taking a Defender round the Ring ten years ago.

https://youtu.be/ptEuUgncwV4