RE: The Brave Pill: TVR Chimaera
Discussion
Pub2Pub_Ben said:
From a handling perspective, it's actually an interesting thread to read, because I've been in both camps. Despite Kermit being a lowly 4 litre, I remember being rather intimidated by mine when I first bought it, and it took me a year or so before I was fully comfortable sliding it around. But before I bought the Chim, my previous sports car ownership was limited to a Porsche 944 - great car, but very different, being relatively over-tyred, better balanced, and having less torque. From that starting point, it took quite a while before I was fully confident with judging the responses of the high torque, low gearing and relatively narrow tyres of the TVR, especially if the road surface was a bit choppy. But I guess that's one of the appealing aspects of TVR ownership - the more time and effort you put into it, the more you're rewarded as you learn.
That was exactly my experience too when I had one in the 90's. Took me about 10k to really understand the handling after coming from a completely different Corrado VR6 and a bunch of other FWD's but after that it was sublime, you could really balance the under/oversteer perfectly on the throttle. Before that I respected it and it didn't come close to killing me.ianwayne said:
Dan_1981 said:
Tony Gilbert have one in at £10k too.
Anyone familiar with it?
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2019...
He's had it for sale for months. £1k (perhaps £2k? I'm a bit unsure) knocked off the price. And you'd get a bit of warranty.Anyone familiar with it?
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2019...
Page 11, actually.
Equus said:
fausTVR said:
Someone on this tread has a wasp up his arse about TVR, reading between the lines.
His Griff was a pup and the world must never forget.
Perhaps he discovered - when he had the opportunity to examine one in detail - that all Grimaeras are pups, by design?His Griff was a pup and the world must never forget.
Their engineering is fundamentally shonky.
Hell, anyone with even the most basic knowledge of structures will tell you that a backbone chassis - with its low second moment of area - only works even reasonably effectively because you can make it a continuous, fully-enclosed section.
So what did the Blackpool Donkeys do? Left it completely open and unbraced on the bottom, thus destroying that continuity:
And you can't even see on that pic the tubes at the front that have been deliberately buckled to clear the steering arms.
Honestly, they have a pretty plastic bodyshell, but what lies underneath it is enough to make the skin crawl of anyone with any engineering sensibilities.
ianwayne said:
I'm not sure how stiff any other sports cars are supposed to be then! There is no scuttle shake when driving with the top down, unlike many other cars such as MX5s, MGTFs and early Boxsters that I've driven.
Jacking the car at one side at the back on one side rail and the whole chassis comes up, very little flexing to my eye.
story is in this videoJacking the car at one side at the back on one side rail and the whole chassis comes up, very little flexing to my eye.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqTbdmbL7mU
The Chassis are like rubber, it is a 60 year old design
Edited by lotuslover69 on Sunday 24th March 18:49
Esceptico said:
As there was some traffic far ahead and I was already going a bit too quickly I came off the throttle and brushed the brakes. Bloody thing went from lane 3 to lane 2! Fortunately the road was empty. The salesperson said I had upset the car by the “sudden” shift of weight from full throttle to braking. Strange that I’ve never experienced that again in any road car.
...
I didn’t lose the car. I was going in a straight line. I wasn’t going too fast. I had given it full throttle to test the acceleration. Given that I had three lanes and it was dry and straight and there was no traffic I thought it would be okay. I noticed there was traffic in the distance and just wanted to bring it back down to 70. Going from the accelerator and pushing the brakes - not hard as the traffic was far off - unsettled the car and it moved lanes. I didn’t crash. I was taken aback though. I have driven everything from Caterhams to Supercars and driven more than half a million km without an accident and never exeperienced anything remotely similar.
Whilst not doubting that the car behaved as you described, I and others can testify that this is not typical behaviour. Either the example you drove was not mechanically fit or there was a problem with the way you drove it. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and agree it was the former....
I didn’t lose the car. I was going in a straight line. I wasn’t going too fast. I had given it full throttle to test the acceleration. Given that I had three lanes and it was dry and straight and there was no traffic I thought it would be okay. I noticed there was traffic in the distance and just wanted to bring it back down to 70. Going from the accelerator and pushing the brakes - not hard as the traffic was far off - unsettled the car and it moved lanes. I didn’t crash. I was taken aback though. I have driven everything from Caterhams to Supercars and driven more than half a million km without an accident and never exeperienced anything remotely similar.
In my experience, the Griff (& Chim) behave predictably and exactly as advanced driving courses suggest. Compared to other cars, you do need to have a better understanding of weight transfer and traction circles.
Equus said:
Quote by someone calling himself NorfolkSteve (TVR Tuscan owner) From a previous discussion here on TVR suspension upgrades:
Compared to a modern performance car (e.g. Cayman, 911, R8, F-Type, Evora, 458 etc), TVR suspensions (Chimera, Griffith, Cerbera and T-Cars) have poor component stiffness (knuckles, wishbones), poor linkage geometry (wishbone and trackrod pivot locations) and an inherently compromised rear suspension system configuration. As a result they suffer from less than ideal wheel control under drive, braking and cornering and poor refinement. On the plus side the cars are light and have a reasonable mass distribution.
I'd challenge any prospective TVR purchaser to put away his concerns over reliability and handling and try to see the car for what it is, this process of correctly contextualising a Chimaera will help reveal just how undervalued these cars are in the current market.
Owning a Chimaera is really no different to owning any other classic car, you should expect have a very similar ownership experience with a 60's Lotus Elan, a Triumph TR6, an E-Type ect ect ect and no one expects to own a classic car like these and not experience the additional maintenance requirements that inevitably come with such vehicles.
None of these very real reliability issues have an impact on traditional classic car values, indeed classic car prices have rocketed in recent years despite of the maintenance and reliability challenges. But even though a TVR Chimaera is actually a far more reliable proposition than something from the 1960's the market value of the TVR remains artificially depressed, one reason for this is all 60's cars were unreliable so no one devalues a 60's car for it's poor reliability.
The other reason is that by the 1990's when the Chimaera was being produced cars generally had become massively more reliable, Chimaera reliability was inevitably compared to that delivered by many of it's contemporary competitors like a 90's Porsche 968 or a Honda S2000, a hand assembled small production sports car like a TVR is never going to fair well in these circles, it all added up to TVRs gaining a reputation they would never shake off.
This reliability stigma stuck and continues to haunt the cars to this day, which in turn depresses the values, but I'd argue the real reason the values are low is because people are simply failing to view the 90's TVRs in the correct context. As soon as you start to think of a Chimaera as an improved 60's classic British sports car (which is exactly what it is) all the reliability issues disappear, just as they are never in the mind of a the buyer of a traditional classic car which in truth will be way less reliable than a 90's TVR.
Buyers need to contextualise the 90's Rover V8 TVRs, when they start to correctly view a Chimaera or Griffith as an improved 60's classic British sports car expectations for reliability are completely realigned, indeed the TVR goes from being a poor performer to actually offering high levels of reliability, handling, braking and performance compared with something from the 60's.
Put a well used but well maintained Chimaera back to back with a fully restored and well maintained E-Type and the TVR will still be by far the more reliable proposition, compare the braking, handling, ergonomics and usability and the Chimaera knocks the old Jag into a cocked hat. Both cars offer that analogue back to basics driving experience we've engineered out of cars these days because sadly in a bid to refine vehicles and make them safer we have at the same time removed much of the connected man & machine driving experience.
Clearly the E-Type has pedigree, it benefits from coming from a car maker that still exists and in the last 10 years the PR departments at Jaguar and others are heavily capitalising on their heritage, the Jag has racing provenance too and further benefits from the rose tinted spectacle nostalgia BS that says life was somehow better in the 1960's. The Chimaera doesn't really have a racing pedigree, and while TVR are currently trying to reinvent themselves that hasn't really happened yet, just like Jag and others have been doing for years it seems obvious why the PR department at the new TVR are trying to capitalise on what they are calling their "Heritage Cars".
Of course these days decent Jag E-Type Roadsters start at £100k and no one is the least bit concerned about reliability, while a really nice and far more reliable Chimaera can be yours between £10-18K, the prices of the TVR being held unnaturally low by it's supposed reliability issues
.
If you can't afford an E-Type as most of us can't but want the same connected back to basics driving experience in a car that's actually more reliable, better braked and handles way better than the £100k Jag, then the smart crowd should be seeing the £15k Chimaera as the absolutely astonishing value for money option it is.
Compare the Chimaera with a Porsche or Honda and not only are you completely missing the point, you've already proved yourself to be the wrong kind of guy to own a TVR, or any traditional classic car for that matter
. It really is just a case of how a buyer chooses to contextualise the TVR, buyers should take a few moments to realign what they are comparing the car with.... at which point the Chimaera will either suddenly make immense sense or prove itself to be completely the wrong purchase for you 
Owning a Chimaera is really no different to owning any other classic car, you should expect have a very similar ownership experience with a 60's Lotus Elan, a Triumph TR6, an E-Type ect ect ect and no one expects to own a classic car like these and not experience the additional maintenance requirements that inevitably come with such vehicles.
None of these very real reliability issues have an impact on traditional classic car values, indeed classic car prices have rocketed in recent years despite of the maintenance and reliability challenges. But even though a TVR Chimaera is actually a far more reliable proposition than something from the 1960's the market value of the TVR remains artificially depressed, one reason for this is all 60's cars were unreliable so no one devalues a 60's car for it's poor reliability.
The other reason is that by the 1990's when the Chimaera was being produced cars generally had become massively more reliable, Chimaera reliability was inevitably compared to that delivered by many of it's contemporary competitors like a 90's Porsche 968 or a Honda S2000, a hand assembled small production sports car like a TVR is never going to fair well in these circles, it all added up to TVRs gaining a reputation they would never shake off.
This reliability stigma stuck and continues to haunt the cars to this day, which in turn depresses the values, but I'd argue the real reason the values are low is because people are simply failing to view the 90's TVRs in the correct context. As soon as you start to think of a Chimaera as an improved 60's classic British sports car (which is exactly what it is) all the reliability issues disappear, just as they are never in the mind of a the buyer of a traditional classic car which in truth will be way less reliable than a 90's TVR.
Buyers need to contextualise the 90's Rover V8 TVRs, when they start to correctly view a Chimaera or Griffith as an improved 60's classic British sports car expectations for reliability are completely realigned, indeed the TVR goes from being a poor performer to actually offering high levels of reliability, handling, braking and performance compared with something from the 60's.
Put a well used but well maintained Chimaera back to back with a fully restored and well maintained E-Type and the TVR will still be by far the more reliable proposition, compare the braking, handling, ergonomics and usability and the Chimaera knocks the old Jag into a cocked hat. Both cars offer that analogue back to basics driving experience we've engineered out of cars these days because sadly in a bid to refine vehicles and make them safer we have at the same time removed much of the connected man & machine driving experience.
Clearly the E-Type has pedigree, it benefits from coming from a car maker that still exists and in the last 10 years the PR departments at Jaguar and others are heavily capitalising on their heritage, the Jag has racing provenance too and further benefits from the rose tinted spectacle nostalgia BS that says life was somehow better in the 1960's. The Chimaera doesn't really have a racing pedigree, and while TVR are currently trying to reinvent themselves that hasn't really happened yet, just like Jag and others have been doing for years it seems obvious why the PR department at the new TVR are trying to capitalise on what they are calling their "Heritage Cars".
Of course these days decent Jag E-Type Roadsters start at £100k and no one is the least bit concerned about reliability, while a really nice and far more reliable Chimaera can be yours between £10-18K, the prices of the TVR being held unnaturally low by it's supposed reliability issues
. If you can't afford an E-Type as most of us can't but want the same connected back to basics driving experience in a car that's actually more reliable, better braked and handles way better than the £100k Jag, then the smart crowd should be seeing the £15k Chimaera as the absolutely astonishing value for money option it is.
Compare the Chimaera with a Porsche or Honda and not only are you completely missing the point, you've already proved yourself to be the wrong kind of guy to own a TVR, or any traditional classic car for that matter
. It really is just a case of how a buyer chooses to contextualise the TVR, buyers should take a few moments to realign what they are comparing the car with.... at which point the Chimaera will either suddenly make immense sense or prove itself to be completely the wrong purchase for you Good post. I wonder why nobody compares a classic 911 to a 458, or an E-Type to an Aventador. Typical British mentality IMO. When you reside in the states there is a genuine love for US muscle cars, they don’t slate them at every opportunity. I mean, Britain basically cornered the market for affordable fun sports cars, yet the Chimera is worth less than a 5 year old Kia?
Cold said:
So basically they made a 1960's standard of car in the 1990's. 
Not quite...http://www.lotusespritworld.com/ERoadtests/PCOTY_D...
I’ll come clean straight away, I own a TVR. And it’s my second one. Now I’ve got that out of the way I can honestly say that these cars are more relevant today than they have ever been. The roof is off, the engine is burbling, you’re sat low down in an interior that’s wrapped around you and you’re making everyone else’s day because they love the way it looks and sounds. I don’t need to set a lap time around the ‘Ring. I’m driving in the real world. And I’m really driving it - changing gear, using a clutch, controlling the revs. It’s magic. And I don’t have to risk my licence to do it.
In a few years when everyone’s daily driver is full of batteries these cars will be highly sought after. They’re not going to be banned because that would mean banning all the classic cars and super cars owned by the mega rich. It would also make no difference to pollution because there are so few of them and they don’t get used every day. But they’ll be rare and everyone who loves cars will want one because no matter how fast an electric car is it will never have the character that makes these wonderful British gems so special.
In a few years when everyone’s daily driver is full of batteries these cars will be highly sought after. They’re not going to be banned because that would mean banning all the classic cars and super cars owned by the mega rich. It would also make no difference to pollution because there are so few of them and they don’t get used every day. But they’ll be rare and everyone who loves cars will want one because no matter how fast an electric car is it will never have the character that makes these wonderful British gems so special.
ecs0set said:
Esceptico said:
As there was some traffic far ahead and I was already going a bit too quickly I came off the throttle and brushed the brakes. Bloody thing went from lane 3 to lane 2! Fortunately the road was empty. The salesperson said I had upset the car by the “sudden” shift of weight from full throttle to braking. Strange that I’ve never experienced that again in any road car.
...
I didn’t lose the car. I was going in a straight line. I wasn’t going too fast. I had given it full throttle to test the acceleration. Given that I had three lanes and it was dry and straight and there was no traffic I thought it would be okay. I noticed there was traffic in the distance and just wanted to bring it back down to 70. Going from the accelerator and pushing the brakes - not hard as the traffic was far off - unsettled the car and it moved lanes. I didn’t crash. I was taken aback though. I have driven everything from Caterhams to Supercars and driven more than half a million km without an accident and never exeperienced anything remotely similar.
Whilst not doubting that the car behaved as you described, I and others can testify that this is not typical behaviour. Either the example you drove was not mechanically fit or there was a problem with the way you drove it. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and agree it was the former....
I didn’t lose the car. I was going in a straight line. I wasn’t going too fast. I had given it full throttle to test the acceleration. Given that I had three lanes and it was dry and straight and there was no traffic I thought it would be okay. I noticed there was traffic in the distance and just wanted to bring it back down to 70. Going from the accelerator and pushing the brakes - not hard as the traffic was far off - unsettled the car and it moved lanes. I didn’t crash. I was taken aback though. I have driven everything from Caterhams to Supercars and driven more than half a million km without an accident and never exeperienced anything remotely similar.
In my experience, the Griff (& Chim) behave predictably and exactly as advanced driving courses suggest. Compared to other cars, you do need to have a better understanding of weight transfer and traction circles.
yonex said:
So that previously lauded tome explaining how they were a 60's car can now be ignored? Only took a few posts for that U turn. yonex said:
yet the Chimera is worth less than a 5 year old Kia?
I think quite a lot of decent cars are at the bottom of their value at the 20 year mark like the Maserati last week,996 911's etc but the price will rise again providing the popularity of electric vehicles doesn't put the kibosh on all ice cars. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff