RE: The Brave Pill: TVR Chimaera
Discussion
Cold said:
So that previously lauded tome explaining how they were a 60's car can now be ignored? Only took a few posts for that U turn.
It was you who made one generalisation, the other, was from a long term owner trying to explain why people love them (good and bad). That article just demonstrates what they were in 1993. Unlike what Equus was saying, calling the manufactures dim or whatever they produced something on a shoestring that was pretty good. Of course it's not a 458, but neither is an E-Type, or a Diablo, neither of which are used in ridiculous comparisons 
Now we've understood and accepted a Chimaera/Griffith is really a 1960's design improved for the 1990's with better ergonomics brakes, suspension, fuel injection, ect ect ect we can study the handling and why these cars have gained a reputation as some kind of a widow maker, the truth is there are three key reasons these cars have the reputation they do.
ONE: While we all know TVR overstated their horsepower figures even a bog standard 400 will make a good 250 ft/lbs of torque in a car that weighs barely more than 1,000kg, on a 500 this rises to some 300 ft/lbs in the same light weight platform. The torque to weight ratio is considerable for sure, but what people overlook is the very important fact that 90% of that torque is available from just 2,000 rpm. So at not far off idle or when you are conducting an overtaking maneuver you need to understand in a Rover V8 TVR you're going to be applying a massive dollop of traction breaking torque to the rear wheels in an instant, and far more torque far earlier in a much lighter car than with a modern as the trend these days (even on performance cars) is to make their power far higher in the rev range.
TWO: Not only is the car very light overall, more critical is where it carries that limited weight. Obviously a Chimaera/Griffith is rear wheel drive car so with all that torque available so early on you need to ensure there's sufficient weight over the rear axle to provide traction, this is where the design lets itself down as the car is very light indeed at the rear.
THREE: The suspension design really isn't the issue but the condition of it can be, the trouble is not TVR specific its a problem that effects all cars when they reach a certain price point. When depreciation brings the used value of car into the price bracket of a less affluent buyer they tend to suffer from a penny pinching maintenance approach. The reality of a Chimaera/Griffith is they demand proper maintenance, in race car fashion the suspension offers a huge array of adjustability which in an ideal world is exactly what you want but also means poor adjustment is common and any wear will soon ruin the handling.
Now, what a lot of people don't realise is TVR continued the development of the Griffith and Chimaera not only throughout it's production but long after they stopped making these models, a number of critical improvements were developed that can be easily transferred to any earlier Chimaera/Griffith and absolutely transform the cars handling and dynamics.
For more or less £1,000 a set of Mk3 Bilsteins will deliver the kind of handling no new Chimaera/Griffith ever came close to, the above set were custom sprung and valved for me by Bilstein following Ben Lang's instructions, they use Tuscan S spec rear springs to perform in harmony with the additional weight I've installed just behind my rear axle line to address the issue of an overly light rear end covered above.
All the above improvements are available at reasonable cost, fit the best tyres you can afford and make sure the pressures are spot on. Replace any worn suspension bushes with the TVR metalalstic variety and fit those essential thrust washers, then install a set of more modern ball joint type drop links and reinforced ARB brackets. Now fit a set of Ben Lang's Mk 3 Bilsteins and have the car correctly set up at a TVR specialist like Mat Smith sports cars who has a laser Hunter Hawkeye wheel alignment machine and races a Chimaera so knows exactly how to set these cars up.
The above will likely cost you £2,000 but I guarantee you it'll be the best two grand you'll spent on the car by a country mile and will deliver a TVR that will show many a so called fast car a clean pair of heals on a winding country road. These cars can be made to handle brilliantly for not too much money, the basic recipe for good handling came with every Chinaera/Griffith but it just needs a little finessing and some subtle upgrades to reveal the car's true potential.
ONE: While we all know TVR overstated their horsepower figures even a bog standard 400 will make a good 250 ft/lbs of torque in a car that weighs barely more than 1,000kg, on a 500 this rises to some 300 ft/lbs in the same light weight platform. The torque to weight ratio is considerable for sure, but what people overlook is the very important fact that 90% of that torque is available from just 2,000 rpm. So at not far off idle or when you are conducting an overtaking maneuver you need to understand in a Rover V8 TVR you're going to be applying a massive dollop of traction breaking torque to the rear wheels in an instant, and far more torque far earlier in a much lighter car than with a modern as the trend these days (even on performance cars) is to make their power far higher in the rev range.
TWO: Not only is the car very light overall, more critical is where it carries that limited weight. Obviously a Chimaera/Griffith is rear wheel drive car so with all that torque available so early on you need to ensure there's sufficient weight over the rear axle to provide traction, this is where the design lets itself down as the car is very light indeed at the rear.
THREE: The suspension design really isn't the issue but the condition of it can be, the trouble is not TVR specific its a problem that effects all cars when they reach a certain price point. When depreciation brings the used value of car into the price bracket of a less affluent buyer they tend to suffer from a penny pinching maintenance approach. The reality of a Chimaera/Griffith is they demand proper maintenance, in race car fashion the suspension offers a huge array of adjustability which in an ideal world is exactly what you want but also means poor adjustment is common and any wear will soon ruin the handling.
Now, what a lot of people don't realise is TVR continued the development of the Griffith and Chimaera not only throughout it's production but long after they stopped making these models, a number of critical improvements were developed that can be easily transferred to any earlier Chimaera/Griffith and absolutely transform the cars handling and dynamics.
- First on the list are tyres, there is no comparison between the tyres produced in the 1990's and those on offer today, tyres are your only contact with the road so the difference a good set of modern tyres can make is nothing short of transformational.
- Another simple thing than will make a huge improvement is the fitment of nylon thrust washers to TVRs alredy excellent metalastic suspension bushes, these cheap little nylon washers transform the handling of these cars. Nylon thrust washers were installed on the last run of Chimaeras and Griffiths and these days should be considered essential on every car as they really do make a massive difference.
- Next up are the coil over units, when developing the critically claimed Tuscan 2 and Segaris the chief chassis engineer at TVR was a guy called Ben Lang, Ben later went on to develop the Ariel Atom which shows us he knows a thing or two about suspension design. With Ben Lang in charge TVR also went to Bilstein to form a team, a number of Bilstein's best suspension engineers were sent over from Germany to form an aliance with the objective of refining and improving the handling of what turned out to be the last two models to leave Bristol avenue. Much time was spent perfecting the suspension units to deliver both fine ride quality and exceptional handling, the good news for any Chimaera or Griffith owner is they can all now benefit from this expensive development. Ben Lang still works hand in hand with Bilstein UK and will sell you a set of what are now known in TVR circles as the Mk3 Bilsteins because basically they're the third generation of years of development.
For more or less £1,000 a set of Mk3 Bilsteins will deliver the kind of handling no new Chimaera/Griffith ever came close to, the above set were custom sprung and valved for me by Bilstein following Ben Lang's instructions, they use Tuscan S spec rear springs to perform in harmony with the additional weight I've installed just behind my rear axle line to address the issue of an overly light rear end covered above.
- Next up are part the anti roll bars play, actually the issue is not the anti roll bars themselves but what connects them to the suspension. TVR fitted very crude drop links, they are the same vulcanised rubber ball & socket design anyone familiar with a 1970's Triumph TR6 will immediately recognise. Like TR6 drop links the original TVR items wear out incredibly quickly, the issue is once worn they tend to bind up, this causes a rapid loading and unloading of the roll bars which massively unsettles the car in a very unpredictable way. The solution is to replace the drop links with the more modern sealed ball joint design which not only last a lot longer than the dreadful TR6 type used by TVR but will also ensure correct and predictable wheel to wheel loading along the same axle line.
- Finally and now you've got the anti roll bar working correctly with the suspension the next thing you'll find is the bracket that connects the drop links to the wishbone will crack as the original bracket was just too week. This only tends to show itself when you start correctly loading up the anti roll bar but TVR had already started fitting far stronger brackets to the wishbones of the last run of cars so like the nylon thrust washers these should be retro fitted to all Chimaeras/Griffiths if you want safe, predicable and reliable handling.
All the above improvements are available at reasonable cost, fit the best tyres you can afford and make sure the pressures are spot on. Replace any worn suspension bushes with the TVR metalalstic variety and fit those essential thrust washers, then install a set of more modern ball joint type drop links and reinforced ARB brackets. Now fit a set of Ben Lang's Mk 3 Bilsteins and have the car correctly set up at a TVR specialist like Mat Smith sports cars who has a laser Hunter Hawkeye wheel alignment machine and races a Chimaera so knows exactly how to set these cars up.
The above will likely cost you £2,000 but I guarantee you it'll be the best two grand you'll spent on the car by a country mile and will deliver a TVR that will show many a so called fast car a clean pair of heals on a winding country road. These cars can be made to handle brilliantly for not too much money, the basic recipe for good handling came with every Chinaera/Griffith but it just needs a little finessing and some subtle upgrades to reveal the car's true potential.
I think the above post is really the point.
These cars are now 'old'. My own 98 car is 21 years old. Expecting a car this old to handle like a 2 yr old hot hatch isn't realistic, especially if things like shocks are still original.
In terms of evil handling, I've never had a problem. Mine has new springs/shocks/polybushes and drop links. It also has uprated brakes and it's running on modern tyres. Certainly never heard of swapping lanes on the brakes. Have heard of more than one Chim spinning due to aquaplaning at m'way speeds, which must be a scary experience. I don't tend to drive mine in the wet - it's purely a toy.
These cars were hand built. There was definitely variety in terms of how well they were put together (mine seems to be OK in terms of that). If you're buying, you need to be careful. But if you're buying a 21 year old car, then you should be careful anyway.
The chassis do rust. The article is incorrect - you don't have to lift the body to change outriggers (ask me how I know...), but they do rust. Take a screwdriver with you if you're looking to buy - crawl underneath and try to jab the top of the outriggers at the corners. Or look for receipts indicating work done.
Basically, you need to be a bit 'hands on' to understand these cars. A totally standard Chimaera is pretty hard to find. For the more 'I see my car as something I just want to drive', the there's various much newer BMWs, Hondas and Mazdas you can buy.
These cars are now 'old'. My own 98 car is 21 years old. Expecting a car this old to handle like a 2 yr old hot hatch isn't realistic, especially if things like shocks are still original.
In terms of evil handling, I've never had a problem. Mine has new springs/shocks/polybushes and drop links. It also has uprated brakes and it's running on modern tyres. Certainly never heard of swapping lanes on the brakes. Have heard of more than one Chim spinning due to aquaplaning at m'way speeds, which must be a scary experience. I don't tend to drive mine in the wet - it's purely a toy.
These cars were hand built. There was definitely variety in terms of how well they were put together (mine seems to be OK in terms of that). If you're buying, you need to be careful. But if you're buying a 21 year old car, then you should be careful anyway.
The chassis do rust. The article is incorrect - you don't have to lift the body to change outriggers (ask me how I know...), but they do rust. Take a screwdriver with you if you're looking to buy - crawl underneath and try to jab the top of the outriggers at the corners. Or look for receipts indicating work done.
Basically, you need to be a bit 'hands on' to understand these cars. A totally standard Chimaera is pretty hard to find. For the more 'I see my car as something I just want to drive', the there's various much newer BMWs, Hondas and Mazdas you can buy.
All TVRs from the 1958 Grantura to the 2005 Sagaris followed the same central backbone chassis concept built in tubular steel using the truss system, this was how race cars were built in the 1950's and 50's race car designers were really just copying what aircraft designers came up with for fuselage design in the 1920's.
Here's a Grantura chassis...
And here's the final evolution of the concept as used on the Sagaris....
The 1958 Grantura and even the 2005 Segaris are just evolutions of 1950's race car chassis technology or 1920's aerospace design, to bring this to life here's a 1951 Jaguar C-Type chassis....
And here's a 1954 Mercedes Benz 300sl...
Which in turn were all inspired by early aircraft fuselage technology, note the triangulation.
In fact if you want to follow the truss frame concept right back to it's origins you'll find yourself looking up at what carpenters created in the middle ages.
A chassis from any TVR, the Merc 300SL, the C-Type Jag, the fuselage from a Tiger Moth or even a medieval roof structure.. it's all following the same principles of triangulation.
Keep in mind all TVRs are a separate body bolted to a separate chassis making them all closer to 1930's - 1950's car making technology, if you adopt the ancient practice of bolting a separate body to a separate rolling chassis you will always end up with a lack of sophistication by modern monoocoque standards. Right from the Grantura to the Saagaris TVR persisted with a truss frame in the form of a central backbone, so what you end up with is medieval roofing technology in a form that closely followed Colin Chapman's Elan chassis concept.
Colin just used sheet steel to create his backbone, where TVR used tube.
Tube or sheet steel aside, in lots of ways the Elan with it's separate composite body bolted to a central back bone chassis is very very similar in construction to your TVR.
This is why I'm saying a Chimaera is actually a sixties car improved for the 1990's, they were really an updated and bigger Elan with more power and some creature comforts like electric windows, power steering and better brakes ect so they could be sold as a viable (if left field) option to the 90's sports car buyer.
Comparing the TVR's ancient separate backbone tubular truss type chassis construction with a sophisticated Honda S2000, Nissan Z or Porsche Boxter monocoque is like comparing a Tiger Moth with a Euro Fighter, it's like night & day. The fact that the Chimaera can compete at all with these examples is quite remarkable in itself, but people really should look at a Chimaera as an updated and improved 1960's back to basics British sports car rather than a competitor to a true 1990's design.
The thing is as soon as you re-evaluate your mind set to seeing your Chimaera as an improved classic you immediately see what great value it is, because it's closest competitor would be more like an uprated, improved and subtly enhanced E-Type which is actually part monocoque so you could easily argue it's chassis more advanced than a TVR, the problem with an improved E-Type is it'll easily cost you well over £150k to create.
In my opinion people should stop comparing the Chimaera with the Boxter & S2000 even though they were made in the same period, the Chimaera's structure and engineering DNA places it far closer to a back to basics British classic and should simply be viewed and enjoyed as an improved and enhanced version of such.
If you just take a moment to understand and accept what a Chimaera or Griffith really is then you can immediately start enjoying it for being an improved classic in the same way as an Eagle E-Type or a Frontline MGB is an improved classic, the key difference being a good Chmaera while giving you the exact same back to basic thrills with some modern improvements thrown in is just £15k not the £100k plus Frontline are charging or the £500k starting point for an Eagle.
Here's a Grantura chassis...
And here's the final evolution of the concept as used on the Sagaris....
The 1958 Grantura and even the 2005 Segaris are just evolutions of 1950's race car chassis technology or 1920's aerospace design, to bring this to life here's a 1951 Jaguar C-Type chassis....
And here's a 1954 Mercedes Benz 300sl...
Which in turn were all inspired by early aircraft fuselage technology, note the triangulation.
In fact if you want to follow the truss frame concept right back to it's origins you'll find yourself looking up at what carpenters created in the middle ages.
A chassis from any TVR, the Merc 300SL, the C-Type Jag, the fuselage from a Tiger Moth or even a medieval roof structure.. it's all following the same principles of triangulation.
Keep in mind all TVRs are a separate body bolted to a separate chassis making them all closer to 1930's - 1950's car making technology, if you adopt the ancient practice of bolting a separate body to a separate rolling chassis you will always end up with a lack of sophistication by modern monoocoque standards. Right from the Grantura to the Saagaris TVR persisted with a truss frame in the form of a central backbone, so what you end up with is medieval roofing technology in a form that closely followed Colin Chapman's Elan chassis concept.
Colin just used sheet steel to create his backbone, where TVR used tube.
Tube or sheet steel aside, in lots of ways the Elan with it's separate composite body bolted to a central back bone chassis is very very similar in construction to your TVR.
This is why I'm saying a Chimaera is actually a sixties car improved for the 1990's, they were really an updated and bigger Elan with more power and some creature comforts like electric windows, power steering and better brakes ect so they could be sold as a viable (if left field) option to the 90's sports car buyer.
Comparing the TVR's ancient separate backbone tubular truss type chassis construction with a sophisticated Honda S2000, Nissan Z or Porsche Boxter monocoque is like comparing a Tiger Moth with a Euro Fighter, it's like night & day. The fact that the Chimaera can compete at all with these examples is quite remarkable in itself, but people really should look at a Chimaera as an updated and improved 1960's back to basics British sports car rather than a competitor to a true 1990's design.
The thing is as soon as you re-evaluate your mind set to seeing your Chimaera as an improved classic you immediately see what great value it is, because it's closest competitor would be more like an uprated, improved and subtly enhanced E-Type which is actually part monocoque so you could easily argue it's chassis more advanced than a TVR, the problem with an improved E-Type is it'll easily cost you well over £150k to create.
In my opinion people should stop comparing the Chimaera with the Boxter & S2000 even though they were made in the same period, the Chimaera's structure and engineering DNA places it far closer to a back to basics British classic and should simply be viewed and enjoyed as an improved and enhanced version of such.
If you just take a moment to understand and accept what a Chimaera or Griffith really is then you can immediately start enjoying it for being an improved classic in the same way as an Eagle E-Type or a Frontline MGB is an improved classic, the key difference being a good Chmaera while giving you the exact same back to basic thrills with some modern improvements thrown in is just £15k not the £100k plus Frontline are charging or the £500k starting point for an Eagle.
Don't understand any of the TVR bashing to be honest.
They are just awesome cars to own and for me they make you feel special at 30mph, which very few cars can do. I think that's the major charm with them. I also spanked mine remorselessly around tracks in the UK and Europe and it was hilarious fun and capable with some proper geo. Loved all three I owned and will get a 90's Griff at some point too. The looks and noise for the price have never been matched.
Some pictures of mine...just cos
The one that started it all
Family Car next
Pure indulgence lastly
They are just awesome cars to own and for me they make you feel special at 30mph, which very few cars can do. I think that's the major charm with them. I also spanked mine remorselessly around tracks in the UK and Europe and it was hilarious fun and capable with some proper geo. Loved all three I owned and will get a 90's Griff at some point too. The looks and noise for the price have never been matched.
Some pictures of mine...just cos
The one that started it all
Family Car next
Pure indulgence lastly
SonicHedgeHog said:
I’ll come clean straight away, I own a TVR. And it’s my second one. Now I’ve got that out of the way I can honestly say that these cars are more relevant today than they have ever been. The roof is off, the engine is burbling, you’re sat low down in an interior that’s wrapped around you and you’re making everyone else’s day because they love the way it looks and sounds. I don’t need to set a lap time around the ‘Ring. I’m driving in the real world. And I’m really driving it - changing gear, using a clutch, controlling the revs. It’s magic. And I don’t have to risk my licence to do it.
In a few years when everyone’s daily driver is full of batteries these cars will be highly sought after. They’re not going to be banned because that would mean banning all the classic cars and super cars owned by the mega rich. It would also make no difference to pollution because there are so few of them and they don’t get used every day. But they’ll be rare and everyone who loves cars will want one because no matter how fast an electric car is it will never have the character that makes these wonderful British gems so special.
That. Exactly that. In a few years when everyone’s daily driver is full of batteries these cars will be highly sought after. They’re not going to be banned because that would mean banning all the classic cars and super cars owned by the mega rich. It would also make no difference to pollution because there are so few of them and they don’t get used every day. But they’ll be rare and everyone who loves cars will want one because no matter how fast an electric car is it will never have the character that makes these wonderful British gems so special.
Bendy chassis? Don't care. Have new Ben Lang Billies which help a lot. And if I wanted seamless handling I'd buy a Megane Cup or MX5. Eurgh.
'Unreliable' electrics? Don't care. Have Joolz's Emerald ECU. 1st TVR - 1 breakdown, bad earth. This TVR - 1 breakdown, bad coil, now removed for coil packs.
Engine braking meaning bodywork breaking? Don't care. It's lightweight, you need to be gentle or it's arse (and yours) WILL lock up if you try bunging it into 2nd into a bend.
Battery in the footwell? Don't care, have fitted a racing battery and charging cable.
These were blue collar cars built in sheds using Land Rover, Sierra and Cavalier bits. They're cheap.
Owning one is a series of events that the owner of something really exotic and expensive might recognise.
Driving it, parking it up, just sitting at idle, opening the garage to see it sitting there waiting, whatever. Love it.
These are analogue cars in a millenial age - and they're still sensible money. Yes they need fiddling with, yes they were built down to a price, but what else can you get for 10-15k that looks and sounds this good?
Actually, it's half decent weather right now.
Game on. Look, a gear stick - remember those ->
Bit OT but my TVR history is as follows:
350i wedge - this had a real kit car feel about it and never really ran right even after replacing lots of different parts. Handling could best be described as interesting and you certainly needed to have your wits about you when pushing on.
S3 - really shouldn't of sold this one as it was a fantastic example. Embodied everything TVR to me - sounded great, handled like a go kart, cheap to run and looked great.
Chimaera - always wanted one but really didn't gel with it. After the S3 it felt a much heavier car and more GT than sports car. Took it to the South of France after having the engine rebuilt and the fuel pump decided to pack up. This one lived up to the fragile TVR reputation for sure.
Weirdly if I had to have another I'd pick a wedge. Loved the polarising looks and it sounded best of the bunch. Perfect weekend car IMO. In fact I'm on the lookout for one at the moment.
350i wedge - this had a real kit car feel about it and never really ran right even after replacing lots of different parts. Handling could best be described as interesting and you certainly needed to have your wits about you when pushing on.
S3 - really shouldn't of sold this one as it was a fantastic example. Embodied everything TVR to me - sounded great, handled like a go kart, cheap to run and looked great.
Chimaera - always wanted one but really didn't gel with it. After the S3 it felt a much heavier car and more GT than sports car. Took it to the South of France after having the engine rebuilt and the fuel pump decided to pack up. This one lived up to the fragile TVR reputation for sure.
Weirdly if I had to have another I'd pick a wedge. Loved the polarising looks and it sounded best of the bunch. Perfect weekend car IMO. In fact I'm on the lookout for one at the moment.
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
S3 - really shouldn't of sold this one as it was a fantastic example. Embodied everything TVR to me - sounded great, handled like a go kart, cheap to run and looked great.
Chimaera - always wanted one but really didn't gel with it. After the S3 it felt a much heavier car and more GT than sports car.
Certainly not alone in finding that. When I swapped my S3 for my Chim I was expecting it to feel quicker and generally be more advanced to reflect the fact it was far newer. However, it always felt more classic than the S3 to drive and certainly nowhere near as chuckable in the corners. The S3 looks even more classic than the Chimaera does but drives more spritely than the newer car.Chimaera - always wanted one but really didn't gel with it. After the S3 it felt a much heavier car and more GT than sports car.
I've had everything from Mclaren to Aston V12 Vantage and lots of other thing and believe me nothing makes you feel more alive than a TVR.
I've had five of the things in various forms and with a bit of care they are utterly reliable and huge fun. Nothing comes close. Its the perfect blend of savage performance and good styling.
Some of the comments on here are at best badly informed and at worst just sound like the braying's of morons.
I've had five of the things in various forms and with a bit of care they are utterly reliable and huge fun. Nothing comes close. Its the perfect blend of savage performance and good styling.
Some of the comments on here are at best badly informed and at worst just sound like the braying's of morons.
andy43 said:
Fuel hose must have been leaking when you took the pic - there's smoke appearing from underneath 
Just finishing the rears off after a day at bruntingthorpe https://youtu.be/gzeWVw4o4JI
crispian22 said:
andy43 said:
Fuel hose must have been leaking when you took the pic - there's smoke appearing from underneath
Just finishing the rears off after a day at bruntingthorpe https://youtu.be/gzeWVw4o4JI
My first TVR was a 1983 Tasmin 280i.
Used it as my daily while working in Germany and Switzerland.
My first Chimaera followed the Tasmin and again used as a daily on the Continent.
It lived outside 12 months a year and dealt with some pretty horrible conditions but it was great.
Have some great memories of that car and some great road trips with my wife.
Not quite Pub-2-Pub class but still great fun.
I've had a Mk1 Tuscan (I wrote that off), a second Chimaera and a Cerbera 4,2 all of which I loved but, alongside my current Tuscan Convertible, my first Chimaera sits at the top of my table of driving pleasure.
Used it as my daily while working in Germany and Switzerland.
My first Chimaera followed the Tasmin and again used as a daily on the Continent.
It lived outside 12 months a year and dealt with some pretty horrible conditions but it was great.
Have some great memories of that car and some great road trips with my wife.
Not quite Pub-2-Pub class but still great fun.
I've had a Mk1 Tuscan (I wrote that off), a second Chimaera and a Cerbera 4,2 all of which I loved but, alongside my current Tuscan Convertible, my first Chimaera sits at the top of my table of driving pleasure.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff