Cars that "devalued" the brand...
Discussion
2xChevrons said:
I do wish this plain, back-to-basic, functional approach could be reinvented for modern cars.
Isnt a Cactus a similar sort of thing ?The Aygo, C1 and 108 do the original Mini thing quite well ? I know they are bigger, but withing the legislation and safety requirements a foot or so longer isnt that bad.
Or is it more that modern cars a bit flashy in terms of styling and have more gadgets ?
J4CKO said:
Isnt a Cactus a similar sort of thing ?
The Aygo, C1 and 108 do the original Mini thing quite well ? I know they are bigger, but withing the legislation and safety requirements a foot or so longer isnt that bad.
Or is it more that modern cars a bit flashy in terms of styling and have more gadgets ?
The Cactus (especially the current one with its PHC suspension and special comfort-designed seats) is exactly the sort of thing. It's a car that's been holistically designed to be good at being durable and effective transport with very little concession to aspirational/marketing/lifestyle/hierarchical considerations, which I think is very admirable. It's probably as close as a car of its type and size can get these days to 'everything it needs and nothing more'. The Aygo, C1 and 108 do the original Mini thing quite well ? I know they are bigger, but withing the legislation and safety requirements a foot or so longer isnt that bad.
Or is it more that modern cars a bit flashy in terms of styling and have more gadgets ?
I know a lot of people say the Aygo/C1/107 were 'modern Minis' but, having driven many thousands of miles in an original Aygo, I don't really see it. The Aygo is just a small, basic, conventional car. It's not especially good, fun or interesting to drive (beyond the high degree of 'competence' you'd expect from any modern car), it's very bland in terms of character and it's not a particularly intelligent design. It's much more from the Ford 100E Popular/Vauxhall HA Viva school than the Mini/R4/Beetle/500/2CV ilk - it's just an ordinary car made small and basic. It's not taking the idea of compact, functional transport and starting from first principles. That's what the Rover Spiritual concept did and that's why it was never going to be commercially viable, because these days there's no compelling need to (almost literally) re-invent the wheel as those first principles were proven about 50 years ago. The Spiritual may have been a better small economy car than an Aygo (and more intellecually satisfying) but the Aygo would be 90% as good for probably around half the cost.
The only places you really see the same thinking that Issigonis, Porsche, Giacosa and Dreyfus put into their cars these days are in EVs, because they are similarly function-led (they have to be given the current state of the drivetrain technology) and they are also re-examining many of the conventions of automotive engineering just as the 'people's cars' of the mid-20th century did. And, for now at least, they can make a selling point out of bucking conventions because they are, by default, the unconventional choice. Just as the Citroen 2CV disregarded virtually all the conventions of car design at its time because it was specifically designed for a market which had never bought a car before, so had no expectations or standards for what 'a car' was.
DoubleD said:
My mates mum had a 2cv, she used to give us a lift to school in it. It was slightly better than walking in the rain, but only just.
And that's almost literally what it's design brief was. "I want four wheels under an umbrella" was what Pierre-Jules Boulanger instructed the engineers to build him. 2xChevrons said:
DoubleD said:
My mates mum had a 2cv, she used to give us a lift to school in it. It was slightly better than walking in the rain, but only just.
And that's almost literally what it's design brief was. "I want four wheels under an umbrella" was what Pierre-Jules Boulanger instructed the engineers to build him. DoubleD said:
2xChevrons said:
DoubleD said:
My mates mum had a 2cv, she used to give us a lift to school in it. It was slightly better than walking in the rain, but only just.
And that's almost literally what it's design brief was. "I want four wheels under an umbrella" was what Pierre-Jules Boulanger instructed the engineers to build him. av185 said:
Tom8 said:
Theresa May is a Porshce Boxter, you can't really tell which end is which.
You mean a Porsche Boxster.I can see how some would struggle with distinguishing the front from the rear.
Especially those who struggle with basic spelling.
A Boxster does at least have some redeeming features I believe!
I had a Lancia Beta coupé in my teens. I loved that car with its Fiat twincam, it handled beautifully even if it did drink like a dipsomaniac and rust like an old tin can in salt water.
It was the rust that screwed Lancia in the U.K., more specifically the body shell connection points for the engine cradle. These rusted out at an accelerated rate leading to stories of engines dropping out over humped back bridges, urban legend no doubt, but clearly a major MOT issue and an expensive buy back operation. Lancia eventually pulled out of the U.K. never to return, a great loss.
It was the rust that screwed Lancia in the U.K., more specifically the body shell connection points for the engine cradle. These rusted out at an accelerated rate leading to stories of engines dropping out over humped back bridges, urban legend no doubt, but clearly a major MOT issue and an expensive buy back operation. Lancia eventually pulled out of the U.K. never to return, a great loss.
cmvtec said:
I thought this might end up a bit of an X-Type bashing thread, but I can only echo the comments above. I like mine.
I had an E46 BMW 320td back in 2005 that sounded like a tractor when I started it from cold - but a neighbour had a diesel X-Type which made me think my BMW was very refined! That X-Type diesel just sounded like a bag of nails. 
Mr Tidy said:
cmvtec said:
I thought this might end up a bit of an X-Type bashing thread, but I can only echo the comments above. I like mine.
I had an E46 BMW 320td back in 2005 that sounded like a tractor when I started it from cold - but a neighbour had a diesel X-Type which made me think my BMW was very refined! That X-Type diesel just sounded like a bag of nails. Edited by cmvtec on Thursday 18th April 03:44
If the kindest thing you can find to say about a Jaguar is "it's a good tool for the job" then it's not a great Jaguar though. A Fords role in life is to be a great tool for the job, or a Mercedes (if you're a minicabber), but you want more than utilitarian function from a Jaguar surely? I'd have one as a £1500 runaround, but would you honestly have gone out in 2003 and bought one in preference to an E46, with your own money?
Edited by dme123 on Thursday 18th April 14:20
dme123 said:
If the kindest thing you can find to say about a Jaguar is "it's a good tool for the job" then it's not a great Jaguar though. A Fords role in life is to be a great tool for the job, or a Mercedes (if you're a minicabber), but you want more than utilitarian function from a Jaguar surely? I'd have one as a £1500 runaround, but would you honestly have gone out in 2003 and bought one in preference to an E46, with your own money?
Absolutely not. I bought it because like for like it was better equipped, newer, lower mileage and less money than an equivalent E90 320d auto. I don't think my particular car looks bad at all, but I have to admit they're the car of choice for the gammon faced Brexiteer. Some of the low spec ones owned by penny pinchers are decidedly sheddy (and smoky) now.Edited by dme123 on Thursday 18th April 14:20
Despite this, the X-Type isn't a bad car. It certainly diluted the Jaguar brand, but that brand possibly wouldn't be here without it.
Jaguar, Citroen, etc etc there is a long list.
The need to sell loads of crap that looks German to BORING PEOPLE to stay afloat rather than building their "dreams" makes our motoring life less than it could be. All this just as we sink into a world with "controlled travel" dictated by local governments populated with activists.
Doooooooooomed
The need to sell loads of crap that looks German to BORING PEOPLE to stay afloat rather than building their "dreams" makes our motoring life less than it could be. All this just as we sink into a world with "controlled travel" dictated by local governments populated with activists.
Doooooooooomed
Le Controleur Horizontal said:
Jaguar, Citroen, etc etc there is a long list.
The need to sell loads of crap that looks German to BORING PEOPLE to stay afloat rather than building their "dreams" makes our motoring life less than it could be. All this just as we sink into a world with "controlled travel" dictated by local governments populated with activists.
Doooooooooomed
Cheer up love, its a long weekend.The need to sell loads of crap that looks German to BORING PEOPLE to stay afloat rather than building their "dreams" makes our motoring life less than it could be. All this just as we sink into a world with "controlled travel" dictated by local governments populated with activists.
Doooooooooomed
LuS1fer said:
Mr Peel said:
Spot-on. Nothing to add.
What I find annoying is that in the old days, cars like the Mini, 2CV, Fiat 500, Hillman Imp and Renault 4/5 all thrived on cute design and they were deservedly popular.Nowadays, anything "cute or with personality is deemed to be a premium, high profit product, with the consequence that true economy cars are all fug-ugly even when it costs no more to make a personable car than a tin box like the Celerio. Sure, I get it that people will want that and they do it to force buyers to purchase more expensive cars but give me the old school style of interesting designs in basic cars.
VW Up, DS3, Fiat 124 spider, Cactus, Adam, Mito amongst others, hell even a Duster could be considered cute for some people.
They may not be your cup of tea but they still exist and that is without mentioning the slightly more premium A1, S1, 1 Series etc.
Herbs said:
LuS1fer said:
Mr Peel said:
Spot-on. Nothing to add.
What I find annoying is that in the old days, cars like the Mini, 2CV, Fiat 500, Hillman Imp and Renault 4/5 all thrived on cute design and they were deservedly popular.Nowadays, anything "cute or with personality is deemed to be a premium, high profit product, with the consequence that true economy cars are all fug-ugly even when it costs no more to make a personable car than a tin box like the Celerio. Sure, I get it that people will want that and they do it to force buyers to purchase more expensive cars but give me the old school style of interesting designs in basic cars.
VW Up, DS3, Fiat 124 spider, Cactus, Adam, Mito amongst others, hell even a Duster could be considered cute for some people.
They may not be your cup of tea but they still exist and that is without mentioning the slightly more premium A1, S1, 1 Series etc.
Herbs said:
Not quite true - there are plenty around if you look.
VW Up, DS3, Fiat 124 spider, Cactus, Adam, Mito amongst others, hell even a Duster could be considered cute for some people.
They may not be your cup of tea but they still exist and that is without mentioning the slightly more premium A1, S1, 1 Series etc.
None of them are cute. The DS3 and Adam are sold as more premium products and the rest are pretty gopping.VW Up, DS3, Fiat 124 spider, Cactus, Adam, Mito amongst others, hell even a Duster could be considered cute for some people.
They may not be your cup of tea but they still exist and that is without mentioning the slightly more premium A1, S1, 1 Series etc.
The 124 Spider doesn't work either as that is a retro design to start with, underlining the issue.
While the Cactus fills the utilitarian brief, it started off vaguely interesting and has just gone more conformist.
The Lupo was a far better effort than a brick with lights.
The Mito is an upmarket Punto and Audis etc are premium prices.
I think the best argument against myself was the Fiesta Mk 7.
DoubleD said:
Herbs said:
LuS1fer said:
Mr Peel said:
Spot-on. Nothing to add.
What I find annoying is that in the old days, cars like the Mini, 2CV, Fiat 500, Hillman Imp and Renault 4/5 all thrived on cute design and they were deservedly popular.Nowadays, anything "cute or with personality is deemed to be a premium, high profit product, with the consequence that true economy cars are all fug-ugly even when it costs no more to make a personable car than a tin box like the Celerio. Sure, I get it that people will want that and they do it to force buyers to purchase more expensive cars but give me the old school style of interesting designs in basic cars.
VW Up, DS3, Fiat 124 spider, Cactus, Adam, Mito amongst others, hell even a Duster could be considered cute for some people.
They may not be your cup of tea but they still exist and that is without mentioning the slightly more premium A1, S1, 1 Series etc.
Edited by T-195 on Thursday 18th April 17:23
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