RE: McLaren 720S Spider meets Alpine A110 Pure
Discussion
I always wonder is the Alpine really as good as it's made out to be in reviews. Ok I'm sure at 1100kg it's going to be great to drive just because it's lighter by the order of well over a hundred kg over most sports cars today but yet that's not much if at all lighter than the current iteration of Exige V6 (410 or 430) and it's heavier by 100kg than the Alfa 4C which never reviewed anything like as well. It almost feels as if the world of motoring journalists had decided beforehand they would like the Alpine because of what it is with the historic name and all and just have been writing reviews to suit.
isaldiri said:
I always wonder is the Alpine really as good as it's made out to be in reviews. Ok I'm sure at 1100kg it's going to be great to drive just because it's lighter by the order of well over a hundred kg over most sports cars today but yet that's not much if at all lighter than the current iteration of Exige V6 (410 or 430) and it's heavier by 100kg than the Alfa 4C which never reviewed anything like as well. It almost feels as if the world of motoring journalists had decided beforehand they would like the Alpine because of what it is with the historic name and all and just have been writing reviews to suit.
Just drive it or ask any owner- it's the real deal. I'd go so far as to say it's actually better than the reviews. Much is rightly made of the agility and ability to cover badly surfaced road brilliantly, far less (if anything) of what a refined cruiser it is. You might not expect it to be quieter than the Porsche opposition, but it really is - and the difference is very substantial on coarse motorway surfaces. That is what, perhaps more than anything else, surprizes (and delights) owners first. (Partly because the engine doesn't really come alive at running in speeds - so its ability to toodle and cruise strikes you first). I'm sure as a track weapon an Exige V6 has it beaten, but as a daily the Alpine wins hands down. In any case even a V6 is much more expensive and far less well equipped - a 410 or 430 vastly so. In terms of a daily an Evora is a closer match, but much heavier and far more expensive.Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 8th April 11:38
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 8th April 11:49
isaldiri said:
I always wonder is the Alpine really as good as it's made out to be in reviews. Ok I'm sure at 1100kg it's going to be great to drive just because it's lighter by the order of well over a hundred kg over most sports cars today but yet that's not much if at all lighter than the current iteration of Exige V6 (410 or 430) and it's heavier by 100kg than the Alfa 4C which never reviewed anything like as well. It almost feels as if the world of motoring journalists had decided beforehand they would like the Alpine because of what it is with the historic name and all and just have been writing reviews to suit.
The 4C, whilst a lovely looking vehicle, just didn't feel special enough when I sat in one. I can't afford to buy a 4c just to look at it. When I can I will as I do love the look of them. Don't be too drawn into the alfa marketing- the road-ready weight of the 4c is similar to the Alpine- might, in fact, be heavier than a Pure as Alpine have been weighed at less than their own reported weight. I've seen reviews (US) that put the 4C at a similar weight as Alfa did the old trick of weighing a car without any fluids, air-con, options, special seat, smallest wheels etc. The Alpine is just such a versatile car. I bought it as a toy but have put 5000 miles on it as I'm using it whenever I can. A trip to Goodwood to the MM with my 68 year old father was covered without incident or backpain for either of us on a 3 hour journey. Carried enough luggage for the weekend without issue. Just book a test drive...
isaldiri said:
It almost feels as if the world of motoring journalists had decided beforehand they would like the Alpine because of what it is with the historic name and all and just have been writing reviews to suit.
I agree this universal praise seems a bit suspicious, but think of Alfa at the launch date of the 4C. Every journalist with a bit of PHness wanted that car to succeed and see Alfa come back big style. It just wasn't a very good car out of the box. Not bad at all, just (unreasonable?) expectations vs. what was delivered.Main difference in approach IMO is that Renault has taken the Alpine exercise more serious..I'm pretty sure Alfa had a lot less time and money to develop and invested a limited amount in production. They e.g. get all carbon parts / chassis made externally and then assemble the bits. Renault had their dedicated sports car (well hot hatch) team working on it for a long time, built a complete new platform, adapted the factory in Dieppe to produce he car -- spent money on a new paint shop etc.
Looks like they are much more committed financially. And I honestly wonder how they managed to get this not small risk signed off by the board. The company is partially owned by the French state so discussions must have been interesting... Let's spend some more money on EV development or resurrect a sports car manufacturer unknown outside France to build a niche product?
isaldiri said:
I always wonder is the Alpine really as good as it's made out to be in reviews. Ok I'm sure at 1100kg it's going to be great to drive just because it's lighter by the order of well over a hundred kg over most sports cars today but yet that's not much if at all lighter than the current iteration of Exige V6 (410 or 430) and it's heavier by 100kg than the Alfa 4C
Actually it's similar real weight as a 4C, and the gap to a like for like 718 isn't 100kg but more like 300kg. Evora similar to the 718 if not more. Why mention the Evora, well because it's supposed to be the comfortabel usuable Lotus, but as mentioned, the A110 pulls off better comfort than them without compromising interior space or a decent interior for low weight, an Elise/Exige is nowhere close in those terms.
isaldiri said:
I always wonder is the Alpine really as good as it's made out to be in reviews. Ok I'm sure at 1100kg it's going to be great to drive just because it's lighter by the order of well over a hundred kg over most sports cars today but yet that's not much if at all lighter than the current iteration of Exige V6 (410 or 430) and it's heavier by 100kg than the Alfa 4C which never reviewed anything like as well. It almost feels as if the world of motoring journalists had decided beforehand they would like the Alpine because of what it is with the historic name and all and just have been writing reviews to suit.
The Alpine has been well reviewed worldwide and very consistently, is it not believable that what they say is likely to have some truth in it.
Why would journo's consistently have come to similar conclusions and where are all the disgruntled owners who feel they have been conned by the mighty (well actually very modest) marketing machine at Alpine. The Exige is too hardcore for most (and I can't get out of one) and the 4c didn't fulfil what it promised on paper which is a shame.
I put my name down to buy one on the basis of the early reviews as I knew then it was the car I have been waiting for a long time, a car which puts pleasure above outright performance and on that metric its an absolute winner. And having had the car for 6 months I am not even the slightest bit disappointed.
Go get yourself a decent test drive...
Miserablegit said:
Don't be too drawn into the alfa marketing- the road-ready weight of the 4c is similar to the Alpine- might, in fact, be heavier than a Pure as Alpine have been weighed at less than their own reported weight. I've seen reviews (US) that put the 4C at a similar weight as Alfa did the old trick of weighing a car without any fluids, air-con, options, special seat, smallest wheels etc.
Iirc, US spec 4Cs were quite significantly heavier than row/EU spec cars for some reason. I'd agree a US 4c probably is heavier than the Alpine but the EU one would be a fair bit lighter.Good point above about Renault probably spending more effort to tune the car properly than Alfa though I guess. Will try to borrow one off a friend later in the year who should be getting one. I can't say I was all that impressed vs the reviews by the gt4 which seemingly was similarly universally mooned over by the journalists so would be interesting to see what the alpine ends up to me.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Its a fair point but perhaps you may be living in the past. There was time when air cooled was all the rage but no one really cares now.
There was a time when hydraulic steering was the rage but now its hardly mentioned.
There was a time when auto's were crap but now they are the future. The cognoscenti all moan about lack of manual transmission but where there is a choice few elect to take it except on the grounds of cost. Why would Alpine develop a manual when as few as 10% of customers would opt for it.
If you find the essence of driving to be heel and toe and immaculate gear changes then carry on, but there is actually more to a good drive than great gear changes !
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You are probably right it won't change much because its a niche car appealing to a niche audience most buyers are more interested in the badge and 0-60 than a lightweight, somewhat impractical, bit of fun.But within the niche it has set an interesting precedent which, hopefully, others will follow.
Edited by springfan62 on Monday 8th April 17:35
Terminator X said:
Still trying to get my head around this:
"this 720S can hit 124mph in less than eight seconds"
TX.
There were a few at Vmax200 a few weeks ago, they really are absurdly fast. I was in my C63, which has had a remap and is at about 500bhp, so not a slow car. Indeed, to most people that's a Very Fast Car, and I think even to most of us on here it's fast, albeit with a small 'f'. I did one run side by side with a 720S and it just disappeared, I can't get my head around what it must feel like. "this 720S can hit 124mph in less than eight seconds"
TX.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well there are plenty of people buying old cars because they are lighter and more agile, there is no reason why the Alpine can’t be a small but sustainable niche.EV’s are not the only future means of powering vehicles fuel cells are a lighter alternative which are more likely in this type of car.
Looking forward you do have to wonder if a any sports car have a sustainable future with automation and speed limiting technology nearly upon us..
leglessAlex said:
There were a few at Vmax200 a few weeks ago, they really are absurdly fast. I was in my C63, which has had a remap and is at about 500bhp, so not a slow car. Indeed, to most people that's a Very Fast Car, and I think even to most of us on here it's fast, albeit with a small 'f'. I did one run side by side with a 720S and it just disappeared, I can't get my head around what it must feel like.
For me in the end it was too quick, for the road anyway. Certainly a massive thrill when you first floor it but it quickly became apparent that you can't go through a few gears at pace anywhere outside a track, you just stomp the throttle then stomp the brake. Wonderful car no question but I've had other, slightly slower, cars that have been more fun.
br d said:
For me in the end it was too quick, for the road anyway. Certainly a massive thrill when you first floor it but it quickly became apparent that you can't go through a few gears at pace anywhere outside a track, you just stomp the throttle then stomp the brake.
Wonderful car no question but I've had other, slightly slower, cars that have been more fun.
I still am unsure about this 'too quick for the road ' thing I have to say. Yes the 720 is mindblowingly quick but it's not as if a 570 or 650 will not put you in jail for life with say a half second extra of full throttle in the same way a 720 would. The coupe anyway was just more detached so to speak to drive compared to a 650 and certainly compared to something like a 675. The actual speed of the cars is less the issue but the sensation of speed. Perhaps the spider will have changed things, particularly with the rear window open as well as further chassis tuning.Wonderful car no question but I've had other, slightly slower, cars that have been more fun.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'm far less bothered about the choice of gearbox personally than how the car overall feels although if given the choice, all things being equal I agree I'd prefer a manual. Personally the 9X1 cars are so electronically heavy that a manual gearbox to me feels out of place in a car that feels as synthetic/digitised as one of them. I would far rather drive an E46 CSL than any 9X1 manual for example despite the often derided SMG in the CSL as it simply feels much more 'correct' in driving experience to me..isaldiri said:
br d said:
For me in the end it was too quick, for the road anyway. Certainly a massive thrill when you first floor it but it quickly became apparent that you can't go through a few gears at pace anywhere outside a track, you just stomp the throttle then stomp the brake.
Wonderful car no question but I've had other, slightly slower, cars that have been more fun.
I still am unsure about this 'too quick for the road ' thing I have to say. Yes the 720 is mindblowingly quick but it's not as if a 570 or 650 will not put you in jail for life with say a half second extra of full throttle in the same way a 720 would. The coupe anyway was just more detached so to speak to drive compared to a 650 and certainly compared to something like a 675. The actual speed of the cars is less the issue but the sensation of speed. Perhaps the spider will have changed things, particularly with the rear window open as well as further chassis tuning.Wonderful car no question but I've had other, slightly slower, cars that have been more fun.
I like the look of the Alpine and I will be interested to see if it ages and handles its miles better than other fast Renaults. Given the price I'd hope so but we will see. I suppose it doesn't matter for a new purchaser who only intends to keep it for a year or two or as a lease but I'm much more likely to be a second, third or fourth owner.
isaldiri said:
I still am unsure about this 'too quick for the road ' thing I have to say. Yes the 720 is mindblowingly quick but it's not as if a 570 or 650 will not put you in jail for life with say a half second extra of full throttle in the same way a 720 would. The coupe anyway was just more detached so to speak to drive compared to a 650 and certainly compared to something like a 675. The actual speed of the cars is less the issue but the sensation of speed. Perhaps the spider will have changed things, particularly with the rear window open as well as further chassis tuning.
Until I got the 720 I would have said exactly what you have. Off the top of my head 0 - 100 mph in my 650 was 5.7, the 720 5.2 and the 570 6.0, I think the 570 is a better driving experience so just drive the 720 at 570 pace right? But that doesn't work, not for me anyway. The car is designed and setup to be most alive when it's being pushed. Setting aside the obvious differences in handling and gearing a 720 being held at a 570 pace does not feel anywhere near as exciting as pushing the 570 to its limit.
So it comes down to pushing the car hard and I can't do that on the road in a 720 - I'm sure there are people who can, I'm not one of them. I couldn't enjoy the rush of the 720's thrust because everything was happening too bloody fast to appreciate it.
I take on board the point about going out early and picking your roads and this is exactly what I do, and right up to the 650S I could just about get away with it but the 720 is beyond that. No matter how quiet, dry and well-sighted the road if you stamp down the pedal there is going to become here too quickly to enjoy it!
This is just my experience of course and perhaps I'm just getting old. Personally the 570 is the sweet spot for me, it's still insanely quick and capable but I can actually experience the thrill in real time. The 720's speed was just too distracting.
Edited by br d on Monday 8th April 20:14
Taylor James said:
I like the look of the Alpine and I will be interested to see if it ages and handles its miles better than other fast Renaults. Given the price I'd hope so but we will see. I suppose it doesn't matter for a new purchaser who only intends to keep it for a year or two or as a lease but I'm much more likely to be a second, third or fourth owner.
Given the issues Porsche have had with (even mildly) high mileage Boxsters (bore scoring, IMS, tired suspension), not to mention the rectification costs (PDK!!!!), have you really any reason to believe middle-aged Porsches are really as inexpensive (let alone cheaper) to run than Renault Sport models.bcr5784 said:
isaldiri said:
I always wonder is the Alpine really as good as it's made out to be in reviews. Ok I'm sure at 1100kg it's going to be great to drive just because it's lighter by the order of well over a hundred kg over most sports cars today but yet that's not much if at all lighter than the current iteration of Exige V6 (410 or 430) and it's heavier by 100kg than the Alfa 4C which never reviewed anything like as well. It almost feels as if the world of motoring journalists had decided beforehand they would like the Alpine because of what it is with the historic name and all and just have been writing reviews to suit.
Just drive it or ask any owner- it's the real deal. I'd go so far as to say it's actually better than the reviews. Much is rightly made of the agility and ability to cover badly surfaced road brilliantly, far less (if anything) of what a refined cruiser it is. You might not expect it to be quieter than the Porsche opposition, but it really is - and the difference is very substantial on coarse motorway surfaces. That is what, perhaps more than anything else, surprizes (and delights) owners first. (Partly because the engine doesn't really come alive at running in speeds - so its ability to toodle and cruise strikes you first). I'm sure as a track weapon an Exige V6 has it beaten, but as a daily the Alpine wins hands down. In any case even a V6 is much more expensive and far less well equipped - a 410 or 430 vastly so. In terms of a daily an Evora is a closer match, but much heavier and far more expensive.]
I've owned an Evora, 2xExige, (and a modern Europa), and the Alpine is the best all-round.
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