RE: BMW M3 (E90): PH Fleet
Discussion
G.Fraser said:
greenarrow said:
Reading this article makes me pretty annoyed.
Annoyed because its yet another BMW product with potential catastrophic flaws which affect the engine and also annoyed because on the Jaguar XE thread, people were flaming JLR over their supposed awful reliability.
Obviously its a lovely car, but how do the Germans continue to shrug off this sort of story and continue to sell their cars by the bucket-load. If this was a story about a faulty Jag or Alfa we wouldn't hear the end of it.
Indeed. It’s a similar story with Ford and the last Focus RS.Annoyed because its yet another BMW product with potential catastrophic flaws which affect the engine and also annoyed because on the Jaguar XE thread, people were flaming JLR over their supposed awful reliability.
Obviously its a lovely car, but how do the Germans continue to shrug off this sort of story and continue to sell their cars by the bucket-load. If this was a story about a faulty Jag or Alfa we wouldn't hear the end of it.
Premium brand, pay up, stick it on the card and keep it quiet, cant show any weakness with a posh car.
I dont think they are particularly any better built than anything else nowadays, I dont look under the bonnet of my BMW and marvel at the quality compared to the Fords or the Citroen we have, in fact some of the loom looks decidedly unfinished, though may be just mine but my mates is as well.
Trading on public goodwill, want, some nice design and old perceptions of German reliability, oh and some slightly nicer interior plastics.
Ares said:
Cable said:
Ares said:
Lovely car/Lovely engine.....but these mechanical dramas when the engine is barely run in, is another reason why highly tuned NA engines are slowly being replaced by turbo lumps.
The Lexus NA 5L V8 is a lovely thing and pretty much bomb proof.And in terms of being "fit for purpose", this BMW seems like a real piece of s
t.fido said:
^Interesting stuff.
But that doesn't explain why some engines fail at 20k (like mine did) and some are still running after 150k?
I still believe its down to how the engine is treated when cold, and the blame lies just as much with the owners manual as it does the driver.But that doesn't explain why some engines fail at 20k (like mine did) and some are still running after 150k?
The only precaution in the manual is to avoid engine speeds in the pre-warning field if possible (not exactly a strong warning there,) and never drive at engine speeds in the red warning field. The reality is that allows far too much scope for damage. You could drive this car from stone cold and reach engine speeds far in excess of the "now generally advised" 3k maximum while cold, while still staying within the scope of the owners manual guidelines.
I believe those that took the manual literally and did exactly that are the cars where the bearings are being pulled at 30k and looking like the ones in the article. Those that drove with some mechanical sympathy and always let it reach operating temp before increasing the engine speed are the ones still running after 150k.
All the damage done in the photos here could have been caused within a few thousands miles, IMHO, and the damage is done as a result of oil starvation while the 10w-60 warms through.
Add to this the usual salesman inclination to give it some revs on the forecourt to show potential buyers how great it sounds, and it's not hard to see how the the damage mounts up quickly.
If the above is accurate, it does somewhat support the argument that having the bearings changed then treating the car carefully when cold should mean it doesn't have to become routine maintenance. In theory if others have lasted to 150k then there's no reason a well looked after car with replacements won't do the same. It also supports the fact that there are very few instances of bearings failing after replacement. The theory being that if an owner has been careful enough to have them changed, he will have cared for it afterwards and passed on the right advice when he sold it.
As far as I know, the bearings were changed in 2011 but while the materials were changed the dimensions were unchanged. That again suggests BMW did not see an issue with it being standard wear, but more likely driver induced damage while cold. My argument still goes back to the owners manual.
Max_Torque said:
PPS: if my analysis is correct,w hat you actually want to avoid when driving you V8 M3 is high load at medium to low engine speeds!
(because there are no inertial forces to help cancel the firing loads and there is more time for the oil film to be broken down)
... especially on a cold engine. I.e. lots of throttle (=high load) when cold!?? From low to high revs... or just low to mid. (because there are no inertial forces to help cancel the firing loads and there is more time for the oil film to be broken down)
So lots of throttle, cold engine but not necessarily high revs... Edit: so unfortunate if the manual only warns for revs if as Ferret states. When actually more revs on a light throttle is better...
Anyhow, good 'tech article', gained some new insights thanks
Edited by Onehp on Friday 12th April 14:42
J4CKO said:
G.Fraser said:
greenarrow said:
Reading this article makes me pretty annoyed.
Annoyed because its yet another BMW product with potential catastrophic flaws which affect the engine and also annoyed because on the Jaguar XE thread, people were flaming JLR over their supposed awful reliability.
Obviously its a lovely car, but how do the Germans continue to shrug off this sort of story and continue to sell their cars by the bucket-load. If this was a story about a faulty Jag or Alfa we wouldn't hear the end of it.
Indeed. It’s a similar story with Ford and the last Focus RS.Annoyed because its yet another BMW product with potential catastrophic flaws which affect the engine and also annoyed because on the Jaguar XE thread, people were flaming JLR over their supposed awful reliability.
Obviously its a lovely car, but how do the Germans continue to shrug off this sort of story and continue to sell their cars by the bucket-load. If this was a story about a faulty Jag or Alfa we wouldn't hear the end of it.
Premium brand, pay up, stick it on the card and keep it quiet, cant show any weakness with a posh car.
I dont think they are particularly any better built than anything else nowadays, I dont look under the bonnet of my BMW and marvel at the quality compared to the Fords or the Citroen we have, in fact some of the loom looks decidedly unfinished, though may be just mine but my mates is as well.
Trading on public goodwill, want, some nice design and old perceptions of German reliability, oh and some slightly nicer interior plastics.
Ares said:
The Lexus V8 of that era was the 1UR, 4.6l and 340bhp - c70bhp/l
More latterly the 2UR has gone to 5.0, the 'run forever' variant of that engine is 390bhp, rising to 410bhp, so c80bhp/l
Only in the LC and 'F' models has it been increased to 470bhp, 94bhp/l.
I think that an NA 94bhp/l at this capacity is still a relatively high state of tune. My point being, that you can still buy a powerful NA V8 that wont let you down.More latterly the 2UR has gone to 5.0, the 'run forever' variant of that engine is 390bhp, rising to 410bhp, so c80bhp/l
Only in the LC and 'F' models has it been increased to 470bhp, 94bhp/l.
The 417bhp ISF 2UR-GSE is of the same era as the BMW S65, which then developed into the 470bhp+ GSF and LC 500 engine.
Edited by Cable on Friday 12th April 14:45
The Article said:
To recap, because of the engine's characteristics (like that 8,400rpm redline), it needs some pretty special 10W-60 oil. For a frame of reference, that's same oil that you'd find in the in the sump of a Bugatti Veyron.
The downside of this oil (aside from it being expensive) is that when cold it is very thick.
Wow.The downside of this oil (aside from it being expensive) is that when cold it is very thick.
Not sure Why there’s so many complaints these are a performance engine rod bearing replacement is a fairly simple task . Good shout getting mounts done aswell always seen evolve as a very good set up . Nice guys . £1400 cheap as chips just spent £1500 parts for descent discs an pads on the m5 biggest problem these cars have is skin flint owners !!! 80k cars still have same bills 10 years on
big_rob_sydney said:
Ares said:
Cable said:
Ares said:
Lovely car/Lovely engine.....but these mechanical dramas when the engine is barely run in, is another reason why highly tuned NA engines are slowly being replaced by turbo lumps.
The Lexus NA 5L V8 is a lovely thing and pretty much bomb proof.And in terms of being "fit for purpose", this BMW seems like a real piece of s
t.Different horses/different courses. Shire Horse Vs Race Horse.
Lexus....lazy, run forever, mirroring the US model.
BMW M, high tune, designed to extract maximum perform.
Both are fit for purpose, but if you took your LS on track, it would be just as s
t as the BMW would be at lasting for 100,000 without being touched.Max_Torque said:
PS, some lead free bearing info here for info (for the engine geeks like me... ;-) )
FederalMogal_LeadFreeBearings
You my friend are spot on.. totally hit the nail on the head ! no lead free crap in mine. FederalMogal_LeadFreeBearings
Cable said:
Ares said:
The Lexus V8 of that era was the 1UR, 4.6l and 340bhp - c70bhp/l
More latterly the 2UR has gone to 5.0, the 'run forever' variant of that engine is 390bhp, rising to 410bhp, so c80bhp/l
Only in the LC and 'F' models has it been increased to 470bhp, 94bhp/l.
I think that an NA 94bhp/l at this capacity is still a relatively high state of tune. My point being, that you can still buy a powerful NA V8 that wont let you down.More latterly the 2UR has gone to 5.0, the 'run forever' variant of that engine is 390bhp, rising to 410bhp, so c80bhp/l
Only in the LC and 'F' models has it been increased to 470bhp, 94bhp/l.
The 417bhp ISF 2UR-GSE is of the same era as the BMW S65, which then developed into the 470bhp+ GSF and LC 500 engine.
Edited by Cable on Friday 12th April 14:45
Very interesting article and topic. I've driven the E9x M3's lots and they really are a lovely drive, I've even been tempted by one a few times myself so it's disappointing to hear of yet another performance car I like that has issues. OK in this case the price to rectify isn't awful in the grand scheme of things but it really does appear that a lot of manufacturers (apart from perhaps Lexus) can't build a reliable car anymore. Yes a lot of performance cars are highly strung of course but surely that should be accounted for in the price you pay over and above the cooking models.
I think the big problem is everything is built down to a cost and with such fine tolerances that this is almost inevitable, my counter argument to that is they really shouldn't be skimping on bits of the car that could potentially cause catastrophic failure. How much would it really have cost BMW to use better bearings?
I am keen to hear Evolves answer on whether the new bearings are tougher or even if upgraded ones are available. If you've gone to the trouble of opening up the engine, I'd certainly pay a few extra quid to have better parts put in if the option is there.
I think the big problem is everything is built down to a cost and with such fine tolerances that this is almost inevitable, my counter argument to that is they really shouldn't be skimping on bits of the car that could potentially cause catastrophic failure. How much would it really have cost BMW to use better bearings?
I am keen to hear Evolves answer on whether the new bearings are tougher or even if upgraded ones are available. If you've gone to the trouble of opening up the engine, I'd certainly pay a few extra quid to have better parts put in if the option is there.
Max_Torque said:
Are they leaded, lead free, are they OEM ones, and did BMW up-issue the bearing part numbers at any point in the cars life of subsequently?? (a sure sign they have changed to a later and better bearing formulation once aware of the issue)
Just for info...the EU exception for lead in bearings expired around 2011...so BMW switched away from lead bearings in the E9x M3 some time in 2010-11. The original copper lead bearings are no longer available.Also, that so many of these cars are still running while some cars had failed engines at quite low mileages points to poor quality control by the bearing manufacturer. It only takes one bearing out of 16 to be out of spec to cause a problem.
Some cars have hit over 200,000 miles on their original bearings so as long as the OEM replacement bearings are fitted carefully and checked for clearance it should be a one time job.
greenarrow said:
Reading this article makes me pretty annoyed.
Annoyed because its yet another BMW product with potential catastrophic flaws which affect the engine and also annoyed because on the Jaguar XE thread, people were flaming JLR over their supposed awful reliability.
Obviously its a lovely car, but how do the Germans continue to shrug off this sort of story and continue to sell their cars by the bucket-load. If this was a story about a faulty Jag or Alfa we wouldn't hear the end of it.
Agree with this , it's because al BMW's are real quality !! Lol , yes other car makes are are properly slated for engine problems and loose sales because of it , but everyone still wants a beemer . Focus RS head gasket springs to mind , that engine and car ,lost credibility over night ! Annoyed because its yet another BMW product with potential catastrophic flaws which affect the engine and also annoyed because on the Jaguar XE thread, people were flaming JLR over their supposed awful reliability.
Obviously its a lovely car, but how do the Germans continue to shrug off this sort of story and continue to sell their cars by the bucket-load. If this was a story about a faulty Jag or Alfa we wouldn't hear the end of it.
Edited by neil-1323bolts on Friday 12th April 16:52
Edited by neil-1323bolts on Friday 12th April 17:05
Ares said:
big_rob_sydney said:
Ares said:
Cable said:
Ares said:
Lovely car/Lovely engine.....but these mechanical dramas when the engine is barely run in, is another reason why highly tuned NA engines are slowly being replaced by turbo lumps.
The Lexus NA 5L V8 is a lovely thing and pretty much bomb proof.And in terms of being "fit for purpose", this BMW seems like a real piece of s
t.Different horses/different courses. Shire Horse Vs Race Horse.
Lexus....lazy, run forever, mirroring the US model.
BMW M, high tune, designed to extract maximum perform.
Both are fit for purpose, but if you took your LS on track, it would be just as s
t as the BMW would be at lasting for 100,000 without being touched.Edited by C.MW on Friday 12th April 16:58
markcoznottz said:
Detailer dressed by the council? If Lonsdale did detailing......
What an odd comment, what would you expect a person who washes cars all day long to wear? Something cheap, comfy, stretchy and easily washable perhaps, I'd probably wear something similar while washing mine. I expect you get the butler to wash yours in full penguin suit getup? 
Balls. I really want one of these, with a stick & three pedals. I knew throttle actuators failed circa 40k+ but thought rod bearings were likely at higher miles. I was going to get a warranty but the fully comprehensive BM one you’d need to account for total engine failure is circa 2k!
acme said:
Balls. I really want one of these, with a stick & three pedals. I knew throttle actuators failed circa 40k+ but thought rod bearings were likely at higher miles. I was going to get a warranty but the fully comprehensive BM one you’d need to account for total engine failure is circa 2k!
I wouldn't let that put you off. There are plenty out there with over 60k on them and are fine. The BMW warranty only covers up to the purchase price minus VAT.
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