RE: BMW M3 (E90): PH Fleet

[Weekendrebuild]

Guvernator said:

No you are right it's not a lot but I'd argue it shouldn't really be happening in the first place. A friend of mine bought an E93 M3 a few months ago, he was just telling me how much he was enjoying it just two days ago. He probably hasn't the first clue about this issue as he is into cars but not too mechanically minded or on car forums all day long. It would be a massive blow if his engine decided to lunch itself because of this flaw. Do I tell him about this flaw and tell him he needs to spend £1400 which would be a pretty hard sell tbh or do I leave him in blissful ignorance to enjoy his car?

It's not a consumable, it's a design flaw and something that shouldn't even be a consideration if BMW had done their jobs properly.

But it’s only a cheap repair in the grand scheme of ownership ?? As has been said by a fair few, tyres brakes etc can cost more than this repair .. All cars have there issues We have run Imprezas as track cars they had the most chocolate bottom end of any car I’ve owned but it was buttons to repair. look how many ej20s that have been rebuilt you could rebuild the entire engine for less than set of coil packs on a bmw v10

[Pizzaeatingking]

I really lusted after these for years, ever since I drove my mates E92. When I was in the position to buy one this was the big thing that worried me, the throttle actuators I didn't mind but this and the lack of support with servicing the DCT box (I wanted an auto) made me look elsewhere in the end.

I ended up in an F30 340i which I guess shows I was erring more on the daily driver side of things that the ultimate driving machine side of things.

I will have a E90 M3 though, when I can keep it in the garage and bring it out in summer.

[Guvernator]

Weekendrebuild said:

But it’s only a cheap repair in the grand scheme of ownership ?? As has been said by a fair few, tyres brakes etc can cost more than this repair .. All cars have there issues We have run Imprezas as track cars they had the most chocolate bottom end of any car I’ve owned but it was buttons to repair. look how many ej20s that have been rebuilt you could rebuild the entire engine for less than set of coil packs on a bmw v10

And if you don't know about this flaw, what then? We have a distorted view of things on PH sometimes, how many people buying an e9x M3 not a regular on PH would have even heard about this issue? Yes £1400 isn't all that much in the grand scheme of things but a lunched engine could sure ruin your day\month\year.

[The Ferret]

DP33 said:

Seriously - how little mechanical sympathy (and intelligence) do you have to possess to thrash any engine from cold? These things even have the safety-lit Rev counter to guard against terminal stupidity and any act of abuse with an engine like this almost amounts to a form of cruelty.

Made me quite grumpy that these sort of wk puffins are still out there...

Muppets.

Exactly. The problem is some owners will have taken the cold limit as the safe zone, but it’s not.

I fired mine up earlier out of curiosity (then felt the need to drive it 20 miles just to listen to the V8) and from cold the limiter was set at nearly 6k. That’s higher than a lot of Diesel engine max RPM’s, you’d have to be a complete knob to consider revving a highly strung V8 to 6k straight off your driveway, but it was deemed as safe when the car was launched and that’s what many will have gone by, hence my theory that these are the cars suffering signs of wear when opened up at low mileage.

Change the bearings, drive it sympathetically when cold, and IMO it becomes a non issue for the rest of the engines life. Certainly not something you need to class as routine maintenance if looked after properly.

These cars are going through a bit of a bad spell reputation wise, and prices are backing that up. Same as the E46 did with its vanos and subframe issues. People thought it was the end of the world when those started failing. Wind on a few years and look at the prices now that people have realised a one off job at fairly reasonable cost means problem solved.

The E92 will be the same, low mileage good condition comp packs/ltd editions will command top money. The engine otherwise is an absolute belter and extremely reliable.

Edited by The Ferret on Friday 12th April 23:14

[The Ferret]

Guvernator said:

And if you don't know about this flaw, what then? We have a distorted view of things on PH sometimes, how many people buying an e9x M3 not a regular on PH would have even heard about this issue? Yes £1400 isn't all that much in the grand scheme of things but a lunched engine could sure ruin your day\month\year.

I don’t really see ignorance to the problem as an issue. How many people buy a £20k V8 without spending 5 minutes on google first. I did exactly that a couple of years ago before buying an old Volvo V50 for tip runs. The least I would expect is every buyer to be aware of the problem. It’s up to them whether they then research it more or just buy a car that’s had the work already done.

[anonymous-user]

Agreed.

If, I buy another one though. I'd want a proper dipstick. Then, some ITB's.

These are bottoming out right now. When they'll bounce I don't know but I'm sure they will. I don't know if I fancy a DCT next, the manual in my old one was annoying. But, perhaps that's the point?

[Guvernator]

I think the manuals will be worth more in the long run. There weren't that many made\sold and as cars get more and more automated, people crave that extra bit of interaction.

[Weekendrebuild]

Guvernator said:

And if you don't know about this flaw, what then? We have a distorted view of things on PH sometimes, how many people buying an e9x M3 not a regular on PH would have even heard about this issue? Yes £1400 isn't all that much in the grand scheme of things but a lunched engine could sure ruin your day\month\year.

Honestly if you didn’t know about this flaw , you’ve been living in a box ! Or haven’t done your homework if you can’t be bothered to read into something your paying good money for then you get what you deserve really !

[Hub]

It shows that low mileage isn't always a good thing. Potentially lots of short journeys with a cold engine never warming up is the worst case scenario!

[Chris944_S2]

DanG355 said:

So many great cars have some issue - IMS/RMS on Porsches, The timing chain on older RS4/S4's, Gearboxes on S8's, Rust on any 2000's Mercedes, rear subframe mounts on E46 M3's, complex electrical/computer issues on almost any performance car from 2002, untraceable electrical leakage, etc. etc... I believe Corvette based LS engines are pretty solid??

The money spent on the preventative maintenance bearing change seems reasonable given the performance and peace of mind it cgives. I'd happily have one of these.

The LS7 in the Z06 has an issue with valve guide wear and if not caught on time will drop a valve. It can happen as early as 20,000 miles and depending on what the valve did in the cylinder, at best it’s a new head & piston but more likely a new engine as the block can get damaged too

[neilferg]

Guvernator said:

blade7 said:

Does the V8 RS4 have rod bearing issues?

No but that has engine coking and DRC suspension issues. You can't win.

Interesting that few people have mentioned the b7 rs4. Given it's a similar level of tune with almost 100bhp/litre and revs to 8400rpm yet is pretty much bombproof (biased as a b7 owner!). Yes carbon build up can cause a slight loss in power but don't think this is comparable to bearing failure. Carbon build up isn't going to leave you stranded at the side of the road with a knackered engine! I love this shape of m3 and was tempted over the rs4 but after scouring the internet the rs4 seemed the more reliable choice especially as these cars aren't getting any younger .

[deron]

Interesting topic this, as I really wanted a V8, and my choice was between the M3, Rs4, Isf and c63.

I spent ages weighing up the pros and cons of each and ended up with the isf.

I'm the type to obsess and worry over potential faults, and the isf is worry free. After owning it for 6 months I absolutely love it.

Lexus know how well it's built, because they will let you add 2 yrs warranty to one up to 10yrs old after an inspection. Not even bothered with full lexus service history.

The engine noise is addictive once those revs hit 3600rpm and the 2nd inlet opens.

For those interested in it's engine there's a nice pdf with some info https://www.clublexus.com/forums/attachments/is-f-...

[anonymous-user]

deron said:

Interesting topic this, as I really wanted a V8, and my choice was between the M3, Rs4, Isf and c63.

I spent ages weighing up the pros and cons of each and ended up with the isf.

I'm the type to obsess and worry over potential faults, and the isf is worry free. After owning it for 6 months I absolutely love it.

Lexus know how well it's built, because they will let you add 2 yrs warranty to one up to 10yrs old after an inspection. Not even bothered with full lexus service history.

The engine noise is addictive once those revs hit 3600rpm and the 2nd inlet opens.

For those interested in it's engine there's a nice pdf with some info https://www.clublexus.com/forums/attachments/is-f-...

To be honest, the Lexus is a totally different animal. Lovely thing as it is, the dynamics are very much different. The M3 has so much front end grip, the chassis is very good. The isf I drove left me with the impression that it was an engine waiting for a decent chassis. I think BMW have this segment nailed, always have to be honest and to get it right the car has to be all things to all men. The S65 has issues, but you can but one for sub 20K and with a few remedial mods will enjoy one of the best allrounders ever made.

[xjay1337]

Jez m said:

The internet has a lot to answer for when it comes to overexadgerating things like this! Not to say you shouldn't change the bearings if you feel like giving yourself reassurance to maximise your experience of this absolutely glorious engine but on the other hand, the 'actual' failures of these engines remains low.

I've run mine for a year now, covered 7k miles and tracked it several times, never going easy on it! It loves to rev and rev and rev and rev!! Motoring nirvana is banging through the DCT box taking it to the 8500 rpm redline in each gear. Combined with a beautifully balanced chassis and pinpoint sharp (hydraulic) steering this car is in it's element on track. I've changed the oil once, had the oil analysis done (low readings of the metal you don't want to see) and other than that, done pretty much nothing but put (copious amounts of) petrol in it and drive the thing, enjoying the stunning V8 soundtrack!

To add some balance to this I know 5 people who have owned E9X M3's.

Every single one has had to have rod bearings . No car was higher than 80k.

[tomic]

deron said:

Interesting topic this, as I really wanted a V8, and my choice was between the M3, Rs4, Isf and c63.

I spent ages weighing up the pros and cons of each and ended up with the isf.

I'm the type to obsess and worry over potential faults, and the isf is worry free. After owning it for 6 months I absolutely love it.

Lexus know how well it's built, because they will let you add 2 yrs warranty to one up to 10yrs old after an inspection. Not even bothered with full lexus service history.

The engine noise is addictive once those revs hit 3600rpm and the 2nd inlet opens.

For those interested in it's engine there's a nice pdf with some info https://www.clublexus.com/forums/attachments/is-f-...

If I was buying an 11 year old high performance car I'd be much more comfortable buying the Lexus. The BMW would be something I'd buy/lease new and hand back after 3 years. My 13 year old LS460 has been utterly fautless since I've had it. It's probably 90% of the car the equivalent Merc or BMW is but it's still really nice and doesn't keep me awake at night with worry about impending failure.

It's worth having a look at these threads to see how well regarded they are by their owners.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-f-2008-2014/56...

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-f-2008-2014/86...

[Leon R]

For some balance that is not just hearsay here are my bearings removed at 40,000.

[blade7]

"Evolve have replaced hundreds of sets of rod bearings" This doesn't sound like owner neglect.

[C.MW]

yonex said:

deron said:

Interesting topic this, as I really wanted a V8, and my choice was between the M3, Rs4, Isf and c63.

I spent ages weighing up the pros and cons of each and ended up with the isf.

I'm the type to obsess and worry over potential faults, and the isf is worry free. After owning it for 6 months I absolutely love it.

Lexus know how well it's built, because they will let you add 2 yrs warranty to one up to 10yrs old after an inspection. Not even bothered with full lexus service history.

The engine noise is addictive once those revs hit 3600rpm and the 2nd inlet opens.

For those interested in it's engine there's a nice pdf with some info https://www.clublexus.com/forums/attachments/is-f-...

To be honest, the Lexus is a totally different animal. Lovely thing as it is, the dynamics are very much different. The M3 has so much front end grip, the chassis is very good. The isf I drove left me with the impression that it was an engine waiting for a decent chassis. I think BMW have this segment nailed, always have to be honest and to get it right the car has to be all things to all men. The S65 has issues, but you can but one for sub 20K and with a few remedial mods will enjoy one of the best allrounders ever made.

If they really nailed it, the widespread bearing issue shouldn't have come into existence in the first place. For me, this is just someting that goes to show the kind of (inadequate) attention they paid when designing the e9x gen M cars.

As for handling, it's interesting how different people prefer different characteristics, but the M3's tendancy to oversteer made it difficult for me to get it under my skin. The rear of the ISF (post MY2010) felt more tied down and I could get on the throttle sooner on corner exit.

Edited by C.MW on Sunday 14th April 01:32

[406dogvan]

blade7 said:

"Evolve have replaced hundreds of sets of rod bearings" This doesn't sound like owner neglect.

It's not - it almost certainly has nothing to do with abuse and everything to do with a fundamental issue with those engines

I do think there's a BIT of "owner baiting" going-on here too tho - it's become a mantra that you do the rod bearings in M cars of that generation which keeps workshops busy whilst actual failures are relatively scarce which is perhaps due to all the work being done or perhaps because they're not as bad as they look/need to get a LOT worse before they fail...

Who knows

[OliTE90]

As a fellow E90 M3 owner, I was very happy to see one has joined the PH fleet. It looks like a great buy, congratulations! On balance, I still love mine after 2 years, but it didn’t work out for me as an everyday driver. It’s now only used for weekend drives and trackdays and I stored it over the last winter. It’s a 2012 model year with 58k miles and I’ve chosen to roll the dice with bearings and actuators for now. The brakes have been the worst part for me. I upgraded the pads, hoses and fluid and still suffered fade after a few 70% laps on track. I’ve invested in a front BBK now, so fingers crossed that works. Keep the updates coming, I look forward to the next instalment. PS Were you tempted by one of the gorgeous Eventuri intakes? It’s on my wish list for sure.