RE: Litchfield BMW M2 Competition: Driven
Discussion
G13NVL said:
With regards the new petrol filters are they the same as the diesel DPF’s and going to cause all kinds of trouble/dash lights if not taken for regular long runs?
The principle is the same but in practice they work rather differently. By and large GPFs don't have controlled regeneration phases like DPFs, they regain passively once up to temperature. Petrol engines also release far smaller particles than diesels and in far smaller quantities so it takes a lot longer for a filter to "fill up". Couple all of that to the fact that petrols tend to warm up quicker than diesels and there SHOULD be far less of a problem. How that pans out in reality remains to be seen - they haven't really been out there long enough to know. kambites said:
G13NVL said:
With regards the new petrol filters are they the same as the diesel DPF’s and going to cause all kinds of trouble/dash lights if not taken for regular long runs?
The principle is the same but in practice they work rather differently. By and large GPFs don't have controlled regeneration phases like DPFs, they regain passively once up to temperature. Petrol engines also release far smaller particles than diesels and in far smaller quantities so it takes a lot longer for a filter to "fill up". Couple all of that to the fact that petrols tend to warm up quicker than diesels and there SHOULD be far less of a problem. How that pans out in reality remains to be seen - they haven't really been out there long enough to know. J4CKO said:
Do actual competition cars have seven grand exhausts ?
Say a touring car ?
When the exhausts are developed for competition cars the development cost is often bourne by the team. There isn’t a “retail price” for a custom developed exhaust for a touring car. And, yes, they are all just sixty quids worth of pipe in the same way forty bags of plaster is £400 and a finished house costs ten grand to have it plastered. If the touring car team presented an invoice for the development of their exhaust at commercial rates I’m certain it would be very expensive, yes.Say a touring car ?
All I’m saying is that there is a variable amount of marketing, a variable amount of development work and a variable amount of profit margin being built into each exhaust divided by the number of exhausts sold. Hence, it’s extremely hard to just use price point as a guide to anything.
Julian Thompson said:
When the exhausts are developed for competition cars the development cost is often bourne by the team. There isn’t a “retail price” for a custom developed exhaust for a touring car. And, yes, they are all just sixty quids worth of pipe in the same way forty bags of plaster is £400 and a finished house costs ten grand to have it plastered. If the touring car team presented an invoice for the development of their exhaust at commercial rates I’m certain it would be very expensive, yes.
All I’m saying is that there is a variable amount of marketing, a variable amount of development work and a variable amount of profit margin being built into each exhaust divided by the number of exhausts sold. Hence, it’s extremely hard to just use price point as a guide to anything.
You still aren't getting it are you?All I’m saying is that there is a variable amount of marketing, a variable amount of development work and a variable amount of profit margin being built into each exhaust divided by the number of exhausts sold. Hence, it’s extremely hard to just use price point as a guide to anything.
Exhaust is not expensive to make nor "develop". It's not like an engine where you have to tests thousands of parameters.
Billy_Whizzzz said:
xjay1337 said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
As a fully fledged car nut, it shocks me at the ignorance of many petrol heads. Screw the planet, screw everyone else - as long as I’m ok and my car can be as noisy and polluting as I like.
What's the view like from up there?Maybe either by a Prius and shut up, or be a little less ostentatious.
TX.
Terminator X said:
Afaik it is / will be a MOT failure though so he will have to put it back at some point.
TX.
Which makes it even more ridiculous, pay 7k for an exahust which needs removing every year to get through it's MOT. More bother than it's worth, just put the 7k towards an M5 and have done with it.TX.
Alpinestars said:
Whilst I admire your hugely superior driving skills to mine, I’d argue it was the new clothes when it came out. Steering and damping were poor. No idea if things have improved.
The steering is ok to be honest but it sharpens up nicely with a geo change. The damping on both cars is poor. As slippy says they need a proper damper. The Nitron setup looks pretty good, the 2 way would be all that you need. I’d have the solid bushing kit on the rear also, it’s not expensive. Then you have a very decent car - all it needs then is 200kg thrown out of it. God knows where it all is.. far too heavy Steve Rance said:
all it needs then is 200kg thrown out of it. God knows where it all is.. far too heavy
People would soon complain if it didn't come with airbags , all the electrical gizmos, turbos add 25kg each or so thank emissions for that.If it was lighter (IE made of nicer materials) it would be too expensive and people would complain.
Can't win - I don't think it's that heavy personally.
Julian Thompson said:
J4CKO said:
Do actual competition cars have seven grand exhausts ?
Say a touring car ?
When the exhausts are developed for competition cars the development cost is often bourne by the team. There isn’t a “retail price” for a custom developed exhaust for a touring car. And, yes, they are all just sixty quids worth of pipe in the same way forty bags of plaster is £400 and a finished house costs ten grand to have it plastered. If the touring car team presented an invoice for the development of their exhaust at commercial rates I’m certain it would be very expensive, yes.Say a touring car ?
All I’m saying is that there is a variable amount of marketing, a variable amount of development work and a variable amount of profit margin being built into each exhaust divided by the number of exhausts sold. Hence, it’s extremely hard to just use price point as a guide to anything.
Its a pipe that takes combustion gases from one end of the car to the other, for seven thousand pounds. You can get an Akropovic system for an M140i for £2735, wonder how much different the M2 one actually is ?
https://mulgari.com/shop/exhaust/akrapovic-bmw-f20...
J4CKO said:
Yeah, but seven grand for an exhaust on what is essentially a One Series BMW
Its a pipe that takes combustion gases from one end of the car to the other, for seven thousand pounds. You can get an Akropovic system for an M140i for £2735, wonder how much different the M2 one actually is ?
https://mulgari.com/shop/exhaust/akrapovic-bmw-f20...
As you surmised the difference between a 2 series and M2 are basically non existent.Its a pipe that takes combustion gases from one end of the car to the other, for seven thousand pounds. You can get an Akropovic system for an M140i for £2735, wonder how much different the M2 one actually is ?
https://mulgari.com/shop/exhaust/akrapovic-bmw-f20...
People have fitted M2 cat back systems on m235i and I think the only thing they need was a 3 inch link pipe which costs £40.
Can't see the M2 Competition having a different rear box.
Julian seems to be happy with the extortionate prices suggested, well I'm envious he has that money to spare
xjay1337 said:
People would soon complain if it didn't come with airbags , all the electrical gizmos, turbos add 25kg each or so thank emissions for that.
If it was lighter (IE made of nicer materials) it would be too expensive and people would complain.
Can't win - I don't think it's that heavy personally.
There will be scope to shed 150kg without compromising saftey but it would mean less creature comforts. I accept that a typical buyer would be happy to sacrifice weight saving for features that they value above it. Its a shame because the M2 is the best modern car that ive driven for a long while but it really doesnt need more power to make it a great car If it was lighter (IE made of nicer materials) it would be too expensive and people would complain.
Can't win - I don't think it's that heavy personally.
Steve Rance said:
xjay1337 said:
People would soon complain if it didn't come with airbags , all the electrical gizmos, turbos add 25kg each or so thank emissions for that.
If it was lighter (IE made of nicer materials) it would be too expensive and people would complain.
Can't win - I don't think it's that heavy personally.
There will be scope to shed 150kg without compromising saftey but it would mean less creature comforts. I accept that a typical buyer would be happy to sacrifice weight saving for features that they value above it. Its a shame because the M2 is the best modern car that ive driven for a long while but it really doesnt need more power to make it a great car If it was lighter (IE made of nicer materials) it would be too expensive and people would complain.
Can't win - I don't think it's that heavy personally.
G13NVL said:
How much weight could be lost with loosing the rear seats, lightweight bucket fronts, lighter wheels, carbon bonnet/boot? Relatively standard mods for a daily/track car would it make much difference?
Yes the weight could be lost.But as someone who has put all of those mods in place let me tell you the prices
- Removing rear seats (doesn't cost anything but to manufacture suitable carpets to cover will cost plus we know car companies charge more for this , let's be reasonable and say £250)
- Lightweight wheels (let's say OZ) - £2000 in a 19x8/10 stagger or similar.
- Lightweight front seats of good quality (£1500 for a pair - not forgetting these often lose airbags and "ease of getting in and out)
- Carbon bonnet (these are available online retail £4100 but £3000 if you look around)
- Boot (I haven't looked but would guess £1200 or so)
So you can see the cost goes up very quickly.
Then you have things like the carbon parts being more expensive to repair in an accident, have to do suitable OEM durability testing on all the parts etc etc... you could easily add another £7.5-£10k if you wanted to go down the "CS" route.
Edited by xjay1337 on Wednesday 24th April 17:44
xjay1337 said:
G13NVL said:
How much weight could be lost with loosing the rear seats, lightweight bucket fronts, lighter wheels, carbon bonnet/boot? Relatively standard mods for a daily/track car would it make much difference?
Yes the weight could be lost.But as someone who has put all of those mods in place let me tell you the prices
- Removing rear seats (doesn't cost anything but to manufacture suitable carpets to cover will cost plus we know car companies charge more for this , let's be reasonable and say £250)
- Lightweight wheels (let's say OZ) - £2000 in a 19x8/10 stagger or similar.
- Lightweight front seats of good quality (£1500 for a pair - not forgetting these often lose airbags and "ease of getting in and out)
- Carbon bonnet (these are available online retail £4100 but £3000 if you look around)
- Boot (I haven't looked but would guess £1200 or so)
So you can see the cost goes up very quickly.
Then you have things like the carbon parts being more expensive to repair in an accident, have to do suitable OEM durability testing on all the parts etc etc... you could easily add another £7.5-£10k if you wanted to go down the "CS" route.
Edited by xjay1337 on Wednesday 24th April 17:44
xjay1337 said:
You still aren't getting it are you?
Exhaust is not expensive to make nor "develop". It's not like an engine where you have to tests thousands of parameters.
er, is it not? I can ask the team of nearly 100 engineers working at a major UK OEM on the exhaust line how much they cost if you like?Exhaust is not expensive to make nor "develop". It's not like an engine where you have to tests thousands of parameters.
Aftermarket exhausts may not cost that much because the people developing them don't, ie don't actually develop them, they just stuff in the biggest possible bit of shiny pipe and go "well, that's wicked init". To PROPERLY develop and exhaust IS a huge task, from the thermal work, to the acoustic tuning, to the productionisation and sorting out the supply chain. For example, have you ever thought about how the manufacturer makes the exhaust tip sit so nicely in the exact middle of the cut out in the rear bumper? I bet you haven't. What about tollerances in the bends causing the exhaust to hit the suspension, or about the thermal expansion, or about condensate trapping, or cabin boom, or what about where the (potentially very hot) exhaust goes in a crash when the powertrain moves, or when ground our on a speed hump, or or or (the list is really really long!)
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 24th April 18:18
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