RE: BMW M4 CS (F82) meets BMW M3 CS (E46)

[Alpinestars]

G13NVL said:

In a few more years of this as more and more people turn to leasing surly there will end up being 100’s of used cars lying about with no buyers?!

Supply and demand. It’ll potentially hit prices rather than “No” buyers.

[Julian Thompson]

I’m not sure about that.

The leasing “deals” exist because of low interest rates and inflated rrp prices.

The reality is that spending £800 a month after tax to lease a vehicle is a significant indulgence for the majority, and, when rinsed and repeated, causes a long term negative impact on finances for the average household.

Spending £800 a month for five years, followed by nothing/not much impacts the average household for five years only.

There is a big difference from a seemingly small difference.

I’ve noticed that the normal PCP/lease pattern is:

First one.
Second one bigger
Third one amazing
Add another for the wife.

Followed by:

Dispose of both
Replace with one really nice car
Keep it longer


Then:

Cheap car because “I’m saving up and I don’t care about cars anymore”

...


Edited to add - that sounds very judgemental from me and it’s unintended apart from as an observation. Spent the day removing plaster from a wall that shouldn’t have needed its plaster removing and had a couple of beers! Apologies to those who successfully lease ad Libitum and are happy with their choice!

Edited by Julian Thompson on Sunday 21st April 20:54

[Arsecati]

bodhi said:

So it wrecks your head when someone suggests they prefer a different gearbox to you? For most of the driving that we will do day to day, the auto/manual decision isn't going to save you any time in your average journey which ever way you go, so who cares if people would rather change gear as they go?

Huh?? Ok, well done on completely and utterly missing my point. If you have no idea what I'm trying to say - then just let it go, please don't guess, as you are just going even further off tangent.

[herebebeasties]

Nimerino said:

I’m not talking about whether they are benign. I have no problem with cars being wild. However, being wild is an outcome related to an equation at the design stage. My issue with the F82 (and I have driven all the versions other than the GTS) is that it’s unpredictable. Its handling characteristics change immensely with the underlying surface, and are simply compounded by the fact that it seems to be set up without regard for the fact that vertical loads will change the way the suspension behaves when on the edge of grip and facing turbocharged torque inputs. The directness of the front end writes cheques the rear cannot cash when trying to go quickly.

I say this with all respect, but if a car is set up in such a way that the only way of dealing with its handling foibles is to drive it slowly, or to constantly feather the throttle because the power delivery cannot be predicted accurately on a given surface and road (again, unrelated to whether that power delivery is linear), it is objectively not a very well set-up car.

I couldn't agree more. It's just not what I'd want out of a car supposedly designed to be driven quickly around corners. The most important thing in my enjoyment of a car is for it to be predictable enough for me to drive it up to the limit (and sometimes beyond, where conditions permit) and thus feel like I'm mastering the car rather than having to somehow manage it. If I can't get it up to ninth tenths without feeling like it's going to stab me in the face then I won't trust it enough to do so, and that's not "exciting", it's just frustrating.

EVO have a piece this month where they ask a whole load of car handling gurus from various manufacturers what makes a good handling car. Nearly all of them basically said "predictability".

[British Beef]

Nimerino said:

It always seem to me that reviewers endlessly rationalise the damn-near dangerous handling traits of the F82, and the trend seems only to have become more prominent since the release of the CS gave it an aura of being ‘special’. It’s not, it’s a tarted-up marketing exercise. Nothing of genuine worth was transferred from the GTS and the price is a joke.

Being unable to handle the torque through the rear wheels at lateral load on anything other than marble-smooth roads (and the utter unpredictability of the behaviour) aren’t exciting traits, they’re potentially catastrophic. How did we get to the point where the inability to trust a car’s kinematics became a desirable trait? And if the CS is so much better-resolved, given pretty much identical suspension hardware, why didn’t the standard cars receive the same treatment? The answer certainly isn’t £27k worth of anything.

Totally agree.

While just about every road test of a sports car I have read, complements it if there is a linear and predictable break away in traction as a handling trait....
Yet, somehow the M4 with its widow maker break away characteristics is exciting! Utter Bullsh!t.

Plus, an M4 that sounds like a hair dryer and needs the hi-fi to generate "sports car" noises - yet more BS. and then the price of that CS even more BS.

Coming from an owner of an old v8 M5, I think the E46 M3 is the last great M car built, everything since then just does not jive with my wants and needs.

[nickfrog]

Julian Thompson said:

Edited to add - that sounds very judgemental from me and it’s unintended apart from as an observation. Spent the day removing plaster from a wall that shouldn’t have needed its plaster removing and had a couple of beers! Apologies to those who successfully lease ad Libitum and are happy with their choice!

It's not so much that it's judgemental it's more the fact that it's a sweeping generalisation. Why would someone lease "ad libitum"? I choose a lease if I think it's cheaper than depreciation on discounted new. If I think it's not, I don't and I buy the car, without making any assumptions. So I might stop or continue or have both like now, I don't know.

Lease is just a form of discounting which may or may not be the cheapest way for someone who prefers new cars.

[nickfrog]

To go back on topic, they should have compared the CSL to an M2, which is close in terms of size and power, not to mention price, which confirms that in real terms car prices have been quite flat over the past 15/20 years if one can see past the price "as tested"
and focus on actual transaction price.

I have found the M2's traction characteristics very predictable but it does require smooth throttle modulation.

[richinlondon]

Heard an m4 at idle the other day ( well turning around somewhere ) and it was an ugly noise...very much a ‘sound track’

[Joscal]

British Beef said:

Nimerino said:

It always seem to me that reviewers endlessly rationalise the damn-near dangerous handling traits of the F82, and the trend seems only to have become more prominent since the release of the CS gave it an aura of being ‘special’. It’s not, it’s a tarted-up marketing exercise. Nothing of genuine worth was transferred from the GTS and the price is a joke.

Being unable to handle the torque through the rear wheels at lateral load on anything other than marble-smooth roads (and the utter unpredictability of the behaviour) aren’t exciting traits, they’re potentially catastrophic. How did we get to the point where the inability to trust a car’s kinematics became a desirable trait? And if the CS is so much better-resolved, given pretty much identical suspension hardware, why didn’t the standard cars receive the same treatment? The answer certainly isn’t £27k worth of anything.

Totally agree.

While just about every road test of a sports car I have read, complements it if there is a linear and predictable break away in traction as a handling trait....
Yet, somehow the M4 with its widow maker break away characteristics is exciting! Utter Bullsh!t.

Plus, an M4 that sounds like a hair dryer and needs the hi-fi to generate "sports car" noises - yet more BS. and then the price of that CS even more BS.

Coming from an owner of an old v8 M5, I think the E46 M3 is the last great M car built, everything since then just does not jive with my wants and needs.

I’d agree with this also I found my F10 M5 similar too. Whilst seriously accomplished it missed the linear control that a high revving NA engine provides. I think the monster tyres play a part too?

[E65Ross]

Now, I don't think the M4 is a bad looking thing (although that hideous grey colour isn't doing it any favours) it highlights just how simple, clean and "right" the E46 M3 looks, doesn't it. It's a fabulous thing in my opinion.

[five50]

What the article overlooks is that you don't need to drop £100k on a CS to have an amazing M3 / M4. Dealers can upgrade software on earlier cars to the latest levels - engine mapping, suspension, diff, gearbox, steering etc.
Very little of the hardware actually changed.
I'm running the 2019 software on my 2016 M3 (non Comp Pack) and it is amazingly well judged in my opinion. A very fast car (my friend with an Ferrari 430 Spyder is even in a straight-line if he is at 8-9k RPM - losing otherwise), that can be engaging or relaxing as required. I absolutely love it! I don't miss my E92 M3 at all.

[five50]

British Beef said:

Totally agree.

While just about every road test of a sports car I have read, complements it if there is a linear and predictable break away in traction as a handling trait....
Yet, somehow the M4 with its widow maker break away characteristics is exciting! Utter Bullsh!t.

Plus, an M4 that sounds like a hair dryer and needs the hi-fi to generate "sports car" noises - yet more BS. and then the price of that CS even more BS.

Coming from an owner of an old v8 M5, I think the E46 M3 is the last great M car built, everything since then just does not jive with my wants and needs.

Lol - drive one with the latest software and then share your view.

[Redline88]

Both fantastic looking cars and having driven the M4, a great machine however, there’s nothing worse than an Alcantara wheel on a road car. Yeah it’s great for grip with gloves on the track but after a few thousand miles of sweat and oil from your palms set in they just feel horrendous!!

[Julian Thompson]

nickfrog said:

Julian Thompson said:

Edited to add - that sounds very judgemental from me and it’s unintended apart from as an observation. Spent the day removing plaster from a wall that shouldn’t have needed its plaster removing and had a couple of beers! Apologies to those who successfully lease ad Libitum and are happy with their choice!

It's not so much that it's judgemental it's more the fact that it's a sweeping generalisation. Why would someone lease "ad libitum"? I choose a lease if I think it's cheaper than depreciation on discounted new. If I think it's not, I don't and I buy the car, without making any assumptions. So I might stop or continue or have both like now, I don't know.

Lease is just a form of discounting which may or may not be the cheapest way for someone who prefers new cars.

You’re absolutely right Nick. As I typed that last night I had a couple of specific people I know in my mind but it’s definitely a load of old nonsense I was writing there! Haha

[S1KRR]

Julian Thompson said:

I’ve noticed that the normal PCP/lease pattern is:

First one.
Second one bigger
Third one amazing
Add another for the wife.

Followed by:

Dispose of both
Replace with one really nice car
Keep it longer


Then:

Cheap car because “I’m saving up and I don’t care about cars anymore”

I agree. I know several people that do this. Though I'll add the caveat that this is for people earing less than say £5K a month and whom subscribe to the classic "champagne taste, lemonade money"

Where I work there's a direct connection to these people and lack of work ethic too!

[Schermerhorn]

Older car.

All day, every day.

[Wills2]

Julian Thompson said:

Wills2 said:

Nimerino said:

It always seem to me that reviewers endlessly rationalise the damn-near dangerous handling traits of the F82, and the trend seems only to have become more prominent since the release of the CS gave it an aura of being ‘special’. It’s not, it’s a tarted-up marketing exercise. Nothing of genuine worth was transferred from the GTS and the price is a joke.

Being unable to handle the torque through the rear wheels at lateral load on anything other than marble-smooth roads (and the utter unpredictability of the behaviour) aren’t exciting traits, they’re potentially catastrophic. How did we get to the point where the inability to trust a car’s kinematics became a desirable trait? And if the CS is so much better-resolved, given pretty much identical suspension hardware, why didn’t the standard cars receive the same treatment? The answer certainly isn’t £27k worth of anything.

The F82 must be completely different to drive than the F80 then as I never noticed any issues other than the fact that 430hp through just the rear wheels dictates when you apply the throttle and when you don't (just like all power rwd cars).

The car was a wonderful drive and easy to make very quick progress in across all types of road.

Having thought about it a bit I do understand what the more critical post refers to - on the earlier (non comp pack) cars the fine tuning was a little harder edged, and as a result the car definitely needed a firm hand to keep it honest, especially in the wet and especially without the driver aids.

The newer ones are less edgy, and I think the criticisms would be harder to completely uphold in terms of a comp pack car.

I do have a tremendous amount of common ground with the idea that 450hp and a wall of torque through the back wheels is always going to need care, attention and responsibility but I do appreciate and agree that if a linear, benign experience is what you want then the F80 cars are not for you - they are definitely a bit wild!

I had a non comp car and did 90,000 miles in it across the country in all weathers on all types of roads, when the journalists started to complain about the nature of the car I just didn't understand what they were feeling, true it was a bit of beast but on the road you just drive to the available traction.

It had many faults but spitting you off the road wasn't one of them in my experience, over the course of having the car I added the MP HAS kit and had the car flashed to the latest engine map at the dealer which made the car more linear in its response but then took away that bombastic initial power delivery so you gained but then also lost.

Chris Harris's review was an outlier at the launch as he loved it, I agree with him.

[Baron Greenback]

Older one for me, dont like the proportions of the M4 to bonet on the 1st pic grats on me. The colour doesnt help it, never been a fan of the undercoat grey trend. Engineering of bmw are 2nd to none but never been a fan of the interior and charging for evey option under the sun and wouldnt put it past them to charge extra for indictors if they could.

[Julian Thompson]

Wills2 said:

Julian Thompson said:

Wills2 said:

Nimerino said:

It always seem to me that reviewers endlessly rationalise the damn-near dangerous handling traits of the F82, and the trend seems only to have become more prominent since the release of the CS gave it an aura of being ‘special’. It’s not, it’s a tarted-up marketing exercise. Nothing of genuine worth was transferred from the GTS and the price is a joke.

Being unable to handle the torque through the rear wheels at lateral load on anything other than marble-smooth roads (and the utter unpredictability of the behaviour) aren’t exciting traits, they’re potentially catastrophic. How did we get to the point where the inability to trust a car’s kinematics became a desirable trait? And if the CS is so much better-resolved, given pretty much identical suspension hardware, why didn’t the standard cars receive the same treatment? The answer certainly isn’t £27k worth of anything.

The F82 must be completely different to drive than the F80 then as I never noticed any issues other than the fact that 430hp through just the rear wheels dictates when you apply the throttle and when you don't (just like all power rwd cars).

The car was a wonderful drive and easy to make very quick progress in across all types of road.

Having thought about it a bit I do understand what the more critical post refers to - on the earlier (non comp pack) cars the fine tuning was a little harder edged, and as a result the car definitely needed a firm hand to keep it honest, especially in the wet and especially without the driver aids.

The newer ones are less edgy, and I think the criticisms would be harder to completely uphold in terms of a comp pack car.

I do have a tremendous amount of common ground with the idea that 450hp and a wall of torque through the back wheels is always going to need care, attention and responsibility but I do appreciate and agree that if a linear, benign experience is what you want then the F80 cars are not for you - they are definitely a bit wild!

I had a non comp car and did 90,000 miles in it across the country in all weathers on all types of roads, when the journalists started to complain about the nature of the car I just didn't understand what they were feeling, true it was a bit of beast but on the road you just drive to the available traction.

It had many faults but spitting you off the road wasn't one of them in my experience, over the course of having the car I added the MP HAS kit and had the car flashed to the latest engine map at the dealer which made the car more linear in its response but then took away that bombastic initial power delivery so you gained but then also lost.

Chris Harris's review was an outlier at the launch as he loved it, I agree with him.

I love the earlier one and I still love the later one I have now. The original 911 turbo was very naughty in the handling department and so were countless other cars but there are many things that get under your skin with a car and it’s clear we all have different experiences and weaknesses when it comes to cars. No point discussing those because it’s great to be different and that’s why my sarcastic anti leasing post was so immature above. I actually leased an Audi A5 for the ex wife simply because although she liked it I never wanted to own it in the long term. Good job eh?

Anyway - the old M4 was safe, like you say, it just needed the driver on the road to respect the laws of weight transfer and distribution. If you did that, and left a good margin of safety, and didn’t behave as though the car had half the power, it was exhilarating to drive and very satisfying to push the boundaries. I can’t escape the earlier comment that it was a little variable in the way that it responded to loads but overall I still loved it enough to buy another one.

As for the CS, I was offered one at a reasonable price by my dealer but for me the lack of a manual box meant I couldn’t get excited about it. I already have a high performance “auto” style car which is tremendous but somehow I just love the big twin turbo straight six working through a manual. It is slower, less efficient and more work, but, I like it!

[jakesmith]

Every M4 that has driven past me sounds like a SR Nova 1.3 with a few holes drilled in the airbox, a blowing exhaust, and then a dog farting as presumably the car changes gear.
I love how they look, and love that grey colour. I'm sure they are awesome to drive too but I would struggle to get past the dire sound.
I do feel that the E46 CSL was the high water mark for M3's, BMW, maybe even a signifier of the top of the car market completely.