The new 3er, thank F*** they've......
Discussion
kambites said:
Ares said:
Yes, my question was tongue in cheek....but if a car is great, it will quickly sell exceptionally well. The Jag XE just isn't on too many levels. That's why it isn't selling well, not due to the list of intangible/historic reasons you gave.
I think we'll have to agree to differ there.Ares said:
Do you really think poor XE sales are purely down to the strength of the BMW brand and ignorance of the buying public?
No, I believe it's primarily (not purely) down to the strength of all three of the German brands and the "old man" connotations associated with the Jaguar brand. Same reason all three German brands outsell Lexus (despite Lexus continually topping just about all reliability and customer satisfaction surveys) and the same reason Infiniti never managed to get a foothold in the UK market.When the products are as close as they are in terms of tangibles, things like brand image become king and all the cars in this market sector are genuinely very good.
kambites said:
Ares said:
Do you really think poor XE sales are purely down to the strength of the BMW brand and ignorance of the buying public?
No, I believe it's primarily (not purely) down to the strength of all three of the German brands and the "old man" connotations associated with the Jaguar brand. Same reason all three German brands outsell Lexus (despite Lexus continually topping just about all reliability and customer satisfaction surveys) and the same reason Infiniti never managed to get a foothold in the UK market.When the products are as close as they are in terms of tangibles, things like brand image become king and all the cars in this market sector are genuinely very good.
It's not all brand and reliability.
And do you not think the strength of the German brands is primarily (not purely) down the them being consistently being good drives (albeit different from each other).
When it comes to driving the car, I don't think the XE is close in terms of tangibles...and the Lexus is even further away.
Ares said:
Barga said:
Not always as brand snobbery can scupper even good products if not you would see many more Alfa Romeo Giulias on the road! 
Yes, but it soon gets overturned........the biggest inhibitor to Giulia sales are a patchy and excessively s
te dealer network. People choose BMW ,Merc and Audi over the Alfa and Jag because of brand snobbery first and very little to do with dealers because most JLR showrooms are state of the art and the monthlies on the XE are pretty competitive but sheepole like iPhones over cheaper inferior competitors and it’s the same with cars especially in that segment.
Barga said:
Further up the thread you alluded to the fact people bought BMWs because of the drive now you are saying people don’t by Alfas because of the dealers even though they are a good drive!
People choose BMW ,Merc and Audi over the Alfa and Jag because of brand snobbery first and very little to do with dealers because most JLR showrooms are state of the art and the monthlies on the XE are pretty competitive but sheepole like iPhones over cheaper inferior competitors and it’s the same with cars especially in that segment.
I don't think that's fair. People choose them because they're perfectly good cars which do everything they care about to a very acceptable standard and are from a brand they know and associate with, which has a franchised dealer just around the corner. I don't think your average A4 buyer thinks "I'm not going to buy an XE because it's an old-mans car" or "I'm not going to buy an Alfa because it'll break down every five minutes"; I don't think they think about the Jag or Alfa at all. People choose BMW ,Merc and Audi over the Alfa and Jag because of brand snobbery first and very little to do with dealers because most JLR showrooms are state of the art and the monthlies on the XE are pretty competitive but sheepole like iPhones over cheaper inferior competitors and it’s the same with cars especially in that segment.
Broadly the same reason Lotus can't get 911 drivers to into an Evora. If they go and drive a 911 first and find it's bloody good (which it is) they have no reason to ever try anything else. They're not buying the 911 because they're badge snobs - most of them probably don't even realise the Evora exists.
Edited by kambites on Friday 26th April 14:32
kambites said:
Barga said:
Further up the thread you alluded to the fact people bought BMWs because of the drive now you are saying people don’t by Alfas because of the dealers even though they are a good drive!
People choose BMW ,Merc and Audi over the Alfa and Jag because of brand snobbery first and very little to do with dealers because most JLR showrooms are state of the art and the monthlies on the XE are pretty competitive but sheepole like iPhones over cheaper inferior competitors and it’s the same with cars especially in that segment.
I don't think that's fair. People choose them because they're perfectly good cars which do everything they care about to a very acceptable standard and are from a brand they know and associate with, which has a franchised dealer just around the corner. I don't think your average A4 buyer thinks "I'm not going to buy an XE because it's an old-mans car" or "I'm not going to buy an Alfa because it'll break down every five minutes"; I don't think they think about the Jag or Alfa at all. People choose BMW ,Merc and Audi over the Alfa and Jag because of brand snobbery first and very little to do with dealers because most JLR showrooms are state of the art and the monthlies on the XE are pretty competitive but sheepole like iPhones over cheaper inferior competitors and it’s the same with cars especially in that segment.
Broadly the same reason Lotus can't get 911 drivers to into an Evora. If they go and drive a 911 first and find it's bloody good (which it is) they have no reason to ever try anything else. They're not buying the 911 because they're badge snobs - most of them probably don't even realise the Evora exists.
Edited by kambites on Friday 26th April 14:32
Barga said:
You honestly don’t think that the monster marketing that Porsche does and product placement has anything to do with them outselling a car that people thought had gone out of business years ago?
I didn't say that it didn't have anything to do with it; quite the opposite in fact, it has everything to do with it. However, I don't believe that's down to badge/brand snobbery, I think it's down to product association which is a very different thing. It's why advertising is so important even when selling to people who aren't brand obsessed; perhaps especially when selling to people who aren't brand obsessed. kambites said:
Barga said:
You honestly don’t think that the monster marketing that Porsche does and product placement has anything to do with them outselling a car that people thought had gone out of business years ago?
I didn't say that it didn't have anything to do with it; quite the opposite in fact, it has everything to do with it. However, I don't believe that's down to badge/brand snobbery, I think it's down to product association which is a very different thing. It's why advertising is so important even when selling to people who aren't brand obsessed; perhaps especially when selling to people who aren't brand obsessed. Barga said:
Ares said:
Barga said:
Not always as brand snobbery can scupper even good products if not you would see many more Alfa Romeo Giulias on the road!
Yes, but it soon gets overturned........the biggest inhibitor to Giulia sales are a patchy and excessively s
te dealer network. People choose BMW ,Merc and Audi over the Alfa and Jag because of brand snobbery first and very little to do with dealers because most JLR showrooms are state of the art and the monthlies on the XE are pretty competitive but sheepole like iPhones over cheaper inferior competitors and it’s the same with cars especially in that segment.
Ares said:
LuS1fer said:
1. RWD is appropriate for a car with more than 450hp so RWD is pretty much a default choice. Would I be happy with a 350hp FWD and could I have just as much fun, if not more? Yes.
A 350bhp FWD will be inherently compromised at best. Downright sEdited by LuS1fer on Friday 26th April 07:29
t at worst. I'm struggling to think of a single 350bhp FWD car that I would class as good, let alone fun.
DoubleD said:
Are there any 350bhp FWD cars?
Not 350bhp as standard. There's plenty of tuned hot hatches out there running that sort of power (or at least being told by dynos that they're generating that sort of power). I think there's a few big FWD barges in the US market which get close plus of course things like the Civic Type-R running about 300 out of the box.
If buying in the this segment, I'd probably go for the Giulia and for a few reasons - mainly that Alfa seem to deserve the business more than BMW. It really is an excellent effort and from scratch.
The Jaguar brand means nothing now, it's just about dead, has been for decades. Look at the old fartmobiles they were knocking out 10, 20 years ago, golf club specials like the S and X Type. Still loads around to remind you how musty and fusty it all is. I haven't seen an F Type for weeks. But Alfa never managed to ruin their brand, it was just on ice for a bit. They will never achieve BMW/Audi/Merc volumes, but that's a good thing. That's why your Mrs looks at the guy in a Brera in a way she doesn't look at blokes in Audis.
The G20 is undoubtedly a superb car, very well planned and executed and coming en masse to a new build estate near you. I'd be happy to have one, but unlike the Giulia, it's not really anything to treasure is it?
The Jaguar brand means nothing now, it's just about dead, has been for decades. Look at the old fartmobiles they were knocking out 10, 20 years ago, golf club specials like the S and X Type. Still loads around to remind you how musty and fusty it all is. I haven't seen an F Type for weeks. But Alfa never managed to ruin their brand, it was just on ice for a bit. They will never achieve BMW/Audi/Merc volumes, but that's a good thing. That's why your Mrs looks at the guy in a Brera in a way she doesn't look at blokes in Audis.
The G20 is undoubtedly a superb car, very well planned and executed and coming en masse to a new build estate near you. I'd be happy to have one, but unlike the Giulia, it's not really anything to treasure is it?
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