RE: 'The toughest, most capable Land Rover ever'
Discussion
Shabs said:
But clearly that is not the case. Jeep manage to sell 250k wranglers per year and demand typically outstrips supply. There is a massive market for “fun off-roaders” in the world, ones with ladder chassis and live axles, just not s
t, unreliable ones that rust
JLR simply has not listened to what customers have been asking for and failed to invest in the platform over the decades. Totally deviating from initial spec isn’t going to help
Since the turn of the century, classic JLR markets for utility vehicles have been pretty much completely stolen by cheaper, more robust far east products. With the military turning it's back on softskin vehicles (due to the IED risks), JLR simply didn't have a viable revenue stream for a new utility vehicle.t, unreliable ones that rustJLR simply has not listened to what customers have been asking for and failed to invest in the platform over the decades. Totally deviating from initial spec isn’t going to help
In it's heyday, the 1990's the Defender sold around 40k units per annum, boosted by those military sales and by the fact that the Far Eastern opposition was a rather immature product at that point. By 2014, that volume had fallen to just 10,000 vehicles worldwide per annum. 10k sales is simply far to few to build a valid business case to produce a completely new vehicle for a company of JLRs (modest) size, and hence unable to leverage parts and functionality from other product lines (if you are toyota for example, you can knock together a new pick-up truck using most of the parts you already have and use for your cars, meaning a massive cost saving).
Now despite Defender sales dropping by 75%, Landrovers overall production has actually increased, thanks too, yup, their "soft roaders" like the freelander, the discovery, and of course, the derisive Ewok, sorry, Evoke. Beardy types love to hate them, because they are not "proper Landrovers" but the simple, obvious and unavoidable fact is that had JLR not diversified out to these products, the company would not exist today......
The "new defender" (which i've driven and imo is excellent and exactly what they need to succeed) has been so long in coming precisely because Landrover have been struggling to work out what it should be, and where it should sit in the range. Whilst Beards want Beam axles, 1 star NCAP and the ability to fix it with a hammer, and the trendy urbanites want 22" Alloys, LED headlamps, leather seats and more bling that a plane load of rappers, somewhere there is a compromise, but it's a very hard one to reach. JLR FULLY understand what the defender means to them, its historical importance and how it forms the foundation of their company as one who builds "off roaders" but the fact remains, more and more of the world is rich, paved and wants (and can afford) a good road car first, and a good off roader second.
The new defender, even treading that fine, fine line between 'Beams and Bling' can never afford to be a ground up design, and was always going to have to borrow a good chunk of its parts from its brothers, which of course, has ALWAYS been the way at Landrover (the original S1 borrowed engines and axles from the prewar Rover cars, the RR borrowed its V8 engine from the Rover P5, the disco1 borrowed everything but i's body from the RR, and the Defender borrowed its body from the Series vehicles!). And those brothers, are increasingly "soft" SUVs, simple because that is not just what people want, but critically, what they are actually buying. For every single beard on a forum who ways "waaah, Landrover have ruined the defender" and who haven't actually got the money to ever buy a new one anyway, there are 100 people who want a decent modern 4x4 SUV, and have the money to buy one........
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 4th June 13:26
Shabs said:
But clearly that is not the case. Jeep manage to sell 250k wranglers per year
Most of those (around 200k) are sold internally in the USA, which is 1) a large market
2) Buys jeeps because they are cheap and "homegrown"
3) actually live in a huge country where there is still plenty of "off road" to actually drive over
And European vehicles get hit with a large import tax in most states, and so are a lot more expensive at the point of sale. A defender is an expensive car in the US, and mostly sold to rich urban hipsters in states like California. European Wrangle sales have been hovering around 5k per annum and as such are a niche market, only supported by the cheap manufacture of the vehicle to support domestic sales and of course FCA have had a fair amount of financial "assistance" from the US government to help keep them afloat... ( https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/fi... )
NomduJour said:
Max_Torque said:
It appeals to the people currently knocking round in old Defenders. Unfortunately, most of those people don't have enough money to actually buy a new car.......
Ah, you mean the Land Rover experts who have never, and will never, buy a new Land Rover, and who also don’t live in the bush/Outback/on the Moon or use their vehicle for some non-specific “work” where it has to climb over giant boulders 500 miles from the nearest settlement on the commute and be fixed by a native whose toolkit contains only a welder and a lump hammer (but not forgetting the pressure washer for the seats and dashboard)? It absolutely positively can't have alpine windows in the back, or a comfortable seating position, or a decent stereo, or the ability to drive on a motorway with a degree of comfort at the expense of extreme off-road ability, because it goes against the company's Heritage. The beardy 5th owners whose only contribution to JLR is making posts about the perceived lack of business sense on internet forums then complain because it doesn't suit their needs.
Meanwhile, JLR will sell loads of them to people like me. Beards will get tumescent every time they see a knackered 300tdi smoking along the motorway, rage impotently when they see someone in a new Defender saying it should have been given a new name, and their wives roll their eyes wondering how long it will be before they get home so their husband can vent on his message boards.
Edited by Tom_Spotley_When on Tuesday 4th June 13:45
Max_Torque said:
Since the turn of the century, classic JLR markets for utility vehicles have been pretty much completely stolen by cheaper, more robust far east products. With the military turning it's back on softskin vehicles (due to the IED risks), JLR simply didn't have a viable revenue stream for a new utility vehicle.
In it's heyday, the 1990's the Defender sold around 40k units per annum, boosted by those military sales and by the fact that the Far Eastern opposition was a rather immature product at that point. By 2014, that volume had fallen to just 10,000 vehicles worldwide per annum. 10k sales is simply far to few to build a valid business case to produce a completely new vehicle for a company of JLRs (modest) size, and hence unable to leverage parts and functionality from other product lines (if you are toyota for example, you can knock together a new pick-up truck using most of the parts you already have and use for your cars, meaning a massive cost saving).
Now despite Defender sales dropping by 75%, Landrovers overall production has actually increased, thanks too, yup, their "soft roaders" like the freelander, the discovery, and of course, the derisive Ewok, sorry, Evoke. Beardy types love to hate them, because they are not "proper Landrovers" but the simple, obvious and unavoidable fact is that had JLR not diversified out to these products, the company would not exist today......
The "new defender" (which i've driven and imo is excellent and exactly what they need to succeed) has been so long in coming precisely because Landrover have been struggling to work out what it should be, and where it should sit in the range. Whilst Beards want Beam axles, 1 star NCAP and the ability to fix it with a hammer, and the trendy urbanites want 22" Alloys, LED headlamps, leather seats and more bling that a plane load of rappers, somewhere there is a compromise, but it's a very hard one to reach. JLR FULLY understand what the defender means to them, its historical importance and how it forms the foundation of their company as one who builds "off roaders" but the fact remains, more and more of the world is rich, paved and wants (and can afford) a good road car first, and a good off roader second.
The new defender, even treading that fine, fine line between 'Beams and Bling' can never afford to be a ground up design, and was always going to have to borrow a good chunk of its parts from its brothers, which of course, has ALWAYS been the way at Landrover (the original S1 borrowed engines and axles from the prewar Rover cars, the RR borrowed its V8 engine from the Rover P5, the disco1 borrowed everything but i's body from the RR, and the Defender borrowed its body from the Series vehicles!). And those brothers, are increasingly "soft" SUVs, simple because that is not just what people want, but critically, what they are actually buying. For every single beard on a forum who ways "waaah, Landrover have ruined the defender" and who haven't actually got the money to ever buy a new one anyway, there are 100 people who want a decent modern 4x4 SUV, and have the money to buy one........
You need to dial back the logic and thoroughness of your response. Facts have no place in this thread. Actually reading something based on the market reality of a company that are doing this to make money is going to make people's blood boil. I would suggest thinking very hard before returning here to add further fact based evidence. In it's heyday, the 1990's the Defender sold around 40k units per annum, boosted by those military sales and by the fact that the Far Eastern opposition was a rather immature product at that point. By 2014, that volume had fallen to just 10,000 vehicles worldwide per annum. 10k sales is simply far to few to build a valid business case to produce a completely new vehicle for a company of JLRs (modest) size, and hence unable to leverage parts and functionality from other product lines (if you are toyota for example, you can knock together a new pick-up truck using most of the parts you already have and use for your cars, meaning a massive cost saving).
Now despite Defender sales dropping by 75%, Landrovers overall production has actually increased, thanks too, yup, their "soft roaders" like the freelander, the discovery, and of course, the derisive Ewok, sorry, Evoke. Beardy types love to hate them, because they are not "proper Landrovers" but the simple, obvious and unavoidable fact is that had JLR not diversified out to these products, the company would not exist today......
The "new defender" (which i've driven and imo is excellent and exactly what they need to succeed) has been so long in coming precisely because Landrover have been struggling to work out what it should be, and where it should sit in the range. Whilst Beards want Beam axles, 1 star NCAP and the ability to fix it with a hammer, and the trendy urbanites want 22" Alloys, LED headlamps, leather seats and more bling that a plane load of rappers, somewhere there is a compromise, but it's a very hard one to reach. JLR FULLY understand what the defender means to them, its historical importance and how it forms the foundation of their company as one who builds "off roaders" but the fact remains, more and more of the world is rich, paved and wants (and can afford) a good road car first, and a good off roader second.
The new defender, even treading that fine, fine line between 'Beams and Bling' can never afford to be a ground up design, and was always going to have to borrow a good chunk of its parts from its brothers, which of course, has ALWAYS been the way at Landrover (the original S1 borrowed engines and axles from the prewar Rover cars, the RR borrowed its V8 engine from the Rover P5, the disco1 borrowed everything but i's body from the RR, and the Defender borrowed its body from the Series vehicles!). And those brothers, are increasingly "soft" SUVs, simple because that is not just what people want, but critically, what they are actually buying. For every single beard on a forum who ways "waaah, Landrover have ruined the defender" and who haven't actually got the money to ever buy a new one anyway, there are 100 people who want a decent modern 4x4 SUV, and have the money to buy one........
Edited by Max_Torque on Tuesday 4th June 13:26
Max_Torque said:
Since the turn of the century, classic JLR markets for utility vehicles have been pretty much completely stolen by cheaper, more robust far east products. With the military turning it's back on softskin vehicles (due to the IED risks), JLR simply didn't have a viable revenue stream for a new utility vehicle.
In it's heyday, the 1990's the Defender sold around 40k units per annum, boosted by those military sales and by the fact that the Far Eastern opposition was a rather immature product at that point. By 2014, that volume had fallen to just 10,000 vehicles worldwide per annum. 10k sales is simply far to few to build a valid business case to produce a completely new vehicle for a company of JLRs (modest) size, and hence unable to leverage parts and functionality from other product lines (if you are toyota for example, you can knock together a new pick-up truck using most of the parts you already have and use for your cars, meaning a massive cost saving).
Now despite Defender sales dropping by 75%, Landrovers overall production has actually increased, thanks too, yup, their "soft roaders" like the freelander, the discovery, and of course, the derisive Ewok, sorry, Evoke. Beardy types love to hate them, because they are not "proper Landrovers" but the simple, obvious and unavoidable fact is that had JLR not diversified out to these products, the company would not exist today......
The "new defender" (which i've driven and imo is excellent and exactly what they need to succeed) has been so long in coming precisely because Landrover have been struggling to work out what it should be, and where it should sit in the range. Whilst Beards want Beam axles, 1 star NCAP and the ability to fix it with a hammer, and the trendy urbanites want 22" Alloys, LED headlamps, leather seats and more bling that a plane load of rappers, somewhere there is a compromise, but it's a very hard one to reach. JLR FULLY understand what the defender means to them, its historical importance and how it forms the foundation of their company as one who builds "off roaders" but the fact remains, more and more of the world is rich, paved and wants (and can afford) a good road car first, and a good off roader second.
The new defender, even treading that fine, fine line between 'Beams and Bling' can never afford to be a ground up design, and was always going to have to borrow a good chunk of its parts from its brothers, which of course, has ALWAYS been the way at Landrover (the original S1 borrowed engines and axles from the prewar Rover cars, the RR borrowed its V8 engine from the Rover P5, the disco1 borrowed everything but i's body from the RR, and the Defender borrowed its body from the Series vehicles!). And those brothers, are increasingly "soft" SUVs, simple because that is not just what people want, but critically, what they are actually buying. For every single beard on a forum who ways "waaah, Landrover have ruined the defender" and who haven't actually got the money to ever buy a new one anyway, there are 100 people who want a decent modern 4x4 SUV, and have the money to buy one........
spot on In it's heyday, the 1990's the Defender sold around 40k units per annum, boosted by those military sales and by the fact that the Far Eastern opposition was a rather immature product at that point. By 2014, that volume had fallen to just 10,000 vehicles worldwide per annum. 10k sales is simply far to few to build a valid business case to produce a completely new vehicle for a company of JLRs (modest) size, and hence unable to leverage parts and functionality from other product lines (if you are toyota for example, you can knock together a new pick-up truck using most of the parts you already have and use for your cars, meaning a massive cost saving).
Now despite Defender sales dropping by 75%, Landrovers overall production has actually increased, thanks too, yup, their "soft roaders" like the freelander, the discovery, and of course, the derisive Ewok, sorry, Evoke. Beardy types love to hate them, because they are not "proper Landrovers" but the simple, obvious and unavoidable fact is that had JLR not diversified out to these products, the company would not exist today......
The "new defender" (which i've driven and imo is excellent and exactly what they need to succeed) has been so long in coming precisely because Landrover have been struggling to work out what it should be, and where it should sit in the range. Whilst Beards want Beam axles, 1 star NCAP and the ability to fix it with a hammer, and the trendy urbanites want 22" Alloys, LED headlamps, leather seats and more bling that a plane load of rappers, somewhere there is a compromise, but it's a very hard one to reach. JLR FULLY understand what the defender means to them, its historical importance and how it forms the foundation of their company as one who builds "off roaders" but the fact remains, more and more of the world is rich, paved and wants (and can afford) a good road car first, and a good off roader second.
The new defender, even treading that fine, fine line between 'Beams and Bling' can never afford to be a ground up design, and was always going to have to borrow a good chunk of its parts from its brothers, which of course, has ALWAYS been the way at Landrover (the original S1 borrowed engines and axles from the prewar Rover cars, the RR borrowed its V8 engine from the Rover P5, the disco1 borrowed everything but i's body from the RR, and the Defender borrowed its body from the Series vehicles!). And those brothers, are increasingly "soft" SUVs, simple because that is not just what people want, but critically, what they are actually buying. For every single beard on a forum who ways "waaah, Landrover have ruined the defender" and who haven't actually got the money to ever buy a new one anyway, there are 100 people who want a decent modern 4x4 SUV, and have the money to buy one........
Edited by Max_Torque on Tuesday 4th June 13:26
NomduJour said:
Tom_Spotley_When said:
the ability to weld a winch bumper to the front and a snorkel to the air intake
Interestingly, the one pictured in Kenya has a snorkel, there are pictures of another one with a winch and bull bar...NomduJour said:
Tom_Spotley_When said:
the ability to weld a winch bumper to the front and a snorkel to the air intake
Interestingly, the one pictured in Kenya has a snorkel, there are pictures of another one with a winch and bull bar...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DA0ko7F7QM
- edit - I then did see it thanks to the below poster pointing it out more clearly
Edited by Shakermaker on Tuesday 4th June 15:54
Shakermaker said:
Up the nearside A-pillar:
Winch etc:
Shakermaker said:
NomduJour said:
Tom_Spotley_When said:
the ability to weld a winch bumper to the front and a snorkel to the air intake
Interestingly, the one pictured in Kenya has a snorkel, there are pictures of another one with a winch and bull bar...Who needs a warranty when Brian the Welder says it's as good as done.
Tom_Spotley_When said:
By the time it's in the hands of a Beard, they'll have deemed the JLR version as unfit for purpose, because it wasn't cobbled together on a farm from leftover bits of RSJ and the snorkel isn't fabricated from guttering and leftover washing machine parts.
Who needs a warranty when Brian the Welder says it's as good as done.
Ah, so you saw my first attempt at a snorkel on a Land Rover then?Who needs a warranty when Brian the Welder says it's as good as done.
(I have a beard, I've had old Land Rovers.. I now want another Land Rover, and I don't want a Discovery Sport/Freelander or an Evoque, and I can't fit in an "old" Defender or Series. But I still want one)
I have much want of the new Defender. The teaser campaign is working for me.
I want it to replace my wife’s Ford Ranger and tow the horsebox/general family wagon.
In this respect I guess it would be used as per our old Disco 4 - refined and nice enough to be used as general family transport, big enough boot to get dogs and family tat in boot, towing capacity to tow horsebox with 2x horses (aka money eating machines).
I hope they do a not too expensive but still nicely specced version so I won’t get too upset when my wife and daughter come back home having treated it as a dumping ground for food/hairbands/chewing gum in wrappers/mud/straw/bits of torn up paper/receipts/stones/food wrappers.
I want it to replace my wife’s Ford Ranger and tow the horsebox/general family wagon.
In this respect I guess it would be used as per our old Disco 4 - refined and nice enough to be used as general family transport, big enough boot to get dogs and family tat in boot, towing capacity to tow horsebox with 2x horses (aka money eating machines).
I hope they do a not too expensive but still nicely specced version so I won’t get too upset when my wife and daughter come back home having treated it as a dumping ground for food/hairbands/chewing gum in wrappers/mud/straw/bits of torn up paper/receipts/stones/food wrappers.
Shakermaker said:
Tom_Spotley_When said:
By the time it's in the hands of a Beard, they'll have deemed the JLR version as unfit for purpose, because it wasn't cobbled together on a farm from leftover bits of RSJ and the snorkel isn't fabricated from guttering and leftover washing machine parts.
Who needs a warranty when Brian the Welder says it's as good as done.
Ah, so you saw my first attempt at a snorkel on a Land Rover then?Who needs a warranty when Brian the Welder says it's as good as done.
(I have a beard, I've had old Land Rovers.. I now want another Land Rover, and I don't want a Discovery Sport/Freelander or an Evoque, and I can't fit in an "old" Defender or Series. But I still want one)
I was 6 or 7.
Ever since then, I've been desperate for a Defender. TD5/Puma Engined 90 S/W - painted Stornaway Grey, Zambezi Silver or Black. Heated Recaros, decent stereo and a snorkel. General Grabber A/T tyres. I never bought one, because there's always been a better car for the job.
I'll never off-road it, but I live in the countryside with a dog that likes to get muddy and a wife who, like me, wants to look cool when we go to nice places.
I'm the perfect candidate for a new one - and when they've ironed out the problems and I've got a sports car out of my system, my name will be on the order form.
I'll take mine as a Short wheel base, with a big stereo, comfy seats, a snorkel and chunky tyres. Ideally in dark green with a tan interior. Lovely stuff.
Tom_Spotley_When said:
I too have a beard. I've had old Land Rovers. The first time I drove a car was a Series 2 on a hill farm on Ilkley Moor. I sat on the farmers knee, steering whilst he did the pedals.
I was 6 or 7.
Ever since then, I've been desperate for a Defender. TD5/Puma Engined 90 S/W - painted Stornaway Grey, Zambezi Silver or Black. Heated Recaros, decent stereo and a snorkel. General Grabber A/T tyres. I never bought one, because there's always been a better car for the job.
I'll never off-road it, but I live in the countryside with a dog that likes to get muddy and a wife who, like me, wants to look cool when we go to nice places.
I'm the perfect candidate for a new one - and when they've ironed out the problems and I've got a sports car out of my system, my name will be on the order form.
I'll take mine as a Short wheel base, with a big stereo, comfy seats, a snorkel and chunky tyres. Ideally in dark green with a tan interior. Lovely stuff.
Maybe we could get a group buy discount if we go and order together?I was 6 or 7.
Ever since then, I've been desperate for a Defender. TD5/Puma Engined 90 S/W - painted Stornaway Grey, Zambezi Silver or Black. Heated Recaros, decent stereo and a snorkel. General Grabber A/T tyres. I never bought one, because there's always been a better car for the job.
I'll never off-road it, but I live in the countryside with a dog that likes to get muddy and a wife who, like me, wants to look cool when we go to nice places.
I'm the perfect candidate for a new one - and when they've ironed out the problems and I've got a sports car out of my system, my name will be on the order form.
I'll take mine as a Short wheel base, with a big stereo, comfy seats, a snorkel and chunky tyres. Ideally in dark green with a tan interior. Lovely stuff.
Tom_Spotley_When said:
I too have a beard. I've had old Land Rovers. The first time I drove a car was a Series 2 on a hill farm on Ilkley Moor. I sat on the farmers knee, steering whilst he did the pedals.
I was 6 or 7.
Ever since then, I've been desperate for a Defender. TD5/Puma Engined 90 S/W - painted Stornaway Grey, Zambezi Silver or Black. Heated Recaros, decent stereo and a snorkel. General Grabber A/T tyres. I never bought one, because there's always been a better car for the job.
I'll never off-road it, but I live in the countryside with a dog that likes to get muddy and a wife who, like me, wants to look cool when we go to nice places.
I'm the perfect candidate for a new one - and when they've ironed out the problems and I've got a sports car out of my system, my name will be on the order form.
I'll take mine as a Short wheel base, with a big stereo, comfy seats, a snorkel and chunky tyres. Ideally in dark green with a tan interior. Lovely stuff.
I guess the only issue here is, is a Fake Defender really all that cool? Shiny and expensive yes and a great way to willy wave. But cool, nah I'm not really so sure it'll meet this.I was 6 or 7.
Ever since then, I've been desperate for a Defender. TD5/Puma Engined 90 S/W - painted Stornaway Grey, Zambezi Silver or Black. Heated Recaros, decent stereo and a snorkel. General Grabber A/T tyres. I never bought one, because there's always been a better car for the job.
I'll never off-road it, but I live in the countryside with a dog that likes to get muddy and a wife who, like me, wants to look cool when we go to nice places.
I'm the perfect candidate for a new one - and when they've ironed out the problems and I've got a sports car out of my system, my name will be on the order form.
I'll take mine as a Short wheel base, with a big stereo, comfy seats, a snorkel and chunky tyres. Ideally in dark green with a tan interior. Lovely stuff.
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