RE: 'The toughest, most capable Land Rover ever'

[InitialDave]

DonkeyApple said:

If you are of the opinion that the old Landy was that vehicle. But the facts don’t support that.

I don't think it's about sales numbers, I think it's about something a little more intangible than that, having a halo car of sorts. The Range Rover is not that car. It might be the best car they make, it might be the one people aspire to own, but it doesn't define the core brand values for Land Rover.

It's similar to how, no matter what Porsche build that sells the most or is notionally their best car, the core value of people's perception of who Porsche are, that gives the badge cachet, is rooted in the old rear-engined sports cars, and they can't really let go of having a 911, a car that reaches back through that lineage, without it being a negative thing for the brand.

Luckily, the numbers work for them to do this without it being a white elephant for the company, and I do understand that it's not so easy for Land Rover to do that, and that they can't go making something as crude as the old car.

But what they build needs to be perceived by their market as being "that" vehicle, the utility-biased, off-road focused truck, the genuine article that no-one would make hairdresser or Chelsea tractor comments about.

How they do that is up to them, and there's no reason it can't be a better, more refined, more liveable vehicle at the same time. But I think people are right to be concerned that, in the cause of building something that will sell to the largest number of people, they water things down too much, and you end up with a Hummer H2 rather than the H1, for example.

There's a balance they need to get that may mean sacrificing a little of what would hit the highest sales numbers, in order to build something that should have the Defender badge on it. I suspect they probably are doing that, and I hope what comes out the other end has a similar "genuine article" feel that I get from the current Jimny vs the old SJ etc.

[SnowStar]

The Range Rover is undeniably the ‘halo’ car. Very few bar the beardies lust for the discomfort of the Defender. Range Rover is more iconic, more desirable and a better all round proposition as a family vehicle/workhorse. Not as flexible a platform as the Defender, but that matters not to most.

[JxJ Jr.]

Slow said:

JxJ Jr. said:

shirt said:

I pay about 30p a litre for super unleaded so I want the 5.0 maknly because I can. Jlt sell shedloads of v8 and svr models abroad, mainly to countries with cheap fuel and zero fks about hybrids or e-vehicles.

The countries you refer to are basically the Middle East region. It is largely not significant to any global car manufacturer in terms of product - JLR sells about 15% of it's volume to what it classifies as 'Overseas' which includes the Middle East but also Brazil, India, Russia, Australia, Russia, etc, so effectively <10% to the ME. It gets what's designed for EU/NA or minor variations of.

Even in America “gas” is cheap. Less than $40 to fill your tank. They don’t care about mpg either.

Cheap, but they do care about MPG, hybrids and electric vehicles, not across the whole population certainly, but it very much is an issue at Federal and State level through things like average fuel economy, although the extent to which does depend on current political winds. The US is not the land of the V8 that people think it is anymore, it's the land of the V6. Clearly there is a market for V8s at the top end there and in Europe and they are the ones that drive continued availability, not markets which give 'zero fks'.

[InitialDave]

SnowStar said:

The Range Rover is undeniably the ‘halo’ car.

I don't think it is, not for Land Rover. It's not the image that comes into my head when the name is mentioned.

I can see it being iconic in its own right, and I think JLR made a good choice to separate out the branding to have different models under the Range Rover name - but just as "Porsche" makes me think of a 911, and "Jeep" makes me think of a Wrangler, "Land Rover" makes me think of a Series/Defender. I just think they need to make sure whatever they build slots neatly into that mental image.

[Oilchange]

I think you're confusing 'Halo' model with 'cash cow' model

[CooperS]

Oilchange said:

I think you're confusing 'Halo' model with 'cash cow' model

Agreed their halo model is a car they no longer make.....

Btw if I had an opportunity (or more precisely the money) to buy those run out Defender V8's I have one in a heartbeat just for the sound. But it would be a Sunday car.

[shirt]

JxJ Jr. said:

shirt said:

I pay about 30p a litre for super unleaded so I want the 5.0 maknly because I can. Jlt sell shedloads of v8 and svr models abroad, mainly to countries with cheap fuel and zero fks about hybrids or e-vehicles.

The countries you refer to are basically the Middle East region. It is largely not significant to any global car manufacturer in terms of product - JLR sells about 15% of it's volume to what it classifies as 'Overseas' which includes the Middle East but also Brazil, India, Russia, Australia, Russia, etc, so effectively <10% to the ME. It gets what's designed for EU/NA or minor variations of.

Sure, but in this region JLR don’t even bother with lower spec models so their margin is proportionately higher.

You’re also not quote correct in your last sentence. ROW markets got the v8 disco 4 as the v6 n/a just doesn’t cut it for markets with big open roads

[JxJ Jr.]

shirt said:

You’re also not quote correct in your last sentence. ROW markets got the v8 disco 4 as the v6 n/a just doesn’t cut it for markets with big open roads

North America got a V8 in the Discovery 4, if it wouldn't have been going there, it wouldn't have been done for the Middle East only.

[shirt]

I didn’t say it was

[NomduJour]

Bill said:

I'll be amazed if it's available with anything more than a 2l.

AJ-V8 was supposedly being replaced by a BMW twin turbo V8.

[J8 SVG]

ash73 said:

Who is the new Defender aimed at?

Farmers won't spend that much on a utilitarian vehicle, families will buy a Disco/Rangie, and folk who just want some fun will buy a Jimny; I don't get who will buy this.

Have you not been listening at all?

It might look at bit defendery on the outside but it's underpinned by range rover/disco chassis and will be a cool looking, nice to drive on the road car that won't stop you doing the school run when it's snowing.

Utilitarian is not the word for this car.

[akirk]

ash73 said:

Who is the new Defender aimed at?

Farmers won't spend that much on a utilitarian vehicle, families will buy a Disco/Rangie, and folk who just want some fun will buy a Jimny; I don't get who will buy this.

In the Cotswolds - all the Disco 4 owners who think the Disco 5 looks ugly and won’t buy it are waiting to see whether this offers them what they want - a utilitarian car with comfort that can tow the horses and throw in the children and dogs - I suspect it will be a good match

[DonkeyApple]

InitialDave said:

I don't think it is, not for Land Rover. It's not the image that comes into my head when the name is mentioned.

I can see it being iconic in its own right, and I think JLR made a good choice to separate out the branding to have different models under the Range Rover name - but just as "Porsche" makes me think of a 911, and "Jeep" makes me think of a Wrangler, "Land Rover" makes me think of a Series/Defender. I just think they need to make sure whatever they build slots neatly into that mental image.

I think it’s important to look at this from the context of our own age and geographic location.

We are mostly on PH of an age that remembers when the Land Rover had a closed market and was underpinned by the British Government. But by the 80s the Range Rober was the halo car. At the same time, most people on PH appear to be British, live in Britain and have done so all their lives and have a highly British perspective.

But JLR doesn’t just sell in Britain.

2018

China 114.83
UK 127.81
Europe 115.96
North America 137.26

About a third of the total sales are Jaguars and that brand has little penetration into China but what you can see is that the two largest markets are the US where the Defender hasn’t ever really been sold and consumers do not think of that vehicle but the Range Rover. And China which if it ever saw a Defender would dump the brand in a shot because such a peasant farmwr’s Vehicle would remind them of the parents and their childhood which they are desperate to pretend never existed.

Even in the UK and Europe, outside of specialist car forums and it’s members consumers don’t think of the Defender. Everything that has been sold in the last couple of decades, everywhere in the world has be done off the back of the image of the FFRR. Every product they make is targeted at getting consumers without the money to buy a FFRR to be able to buy into the brand via a smaller and cheaper product.

JLR are the world leaders in luxury SUVs and they have been since the mid 80s.

[DonkeyApple]

akirk said:

ash73 said:

Who is the new Defender aimed at?

Farmers won't spend that much on a utilitarian vehicle, families will buy a Disco/Rangie, and folk who just want some fun will buy a Jimny; I don't get who will buy this.

In the Cotswolds - all the Disco 4 owners who think the Disco 5 looks ugly and won’t buy it are waiting to see whether this offers them what they want - a utilitarian car with comfort that can tow the horses and throw in the children and dogs - I suspect it will be a good match

I suspect there is a good chance that it will make the Disco redundant in many quarters. Outside of being a myopic Mormon, if this car can do what the Disco 4 did but look better than the Disco 5 then certainly in the UK I can’t see that many people going for the Disco over this?

[Tom_Spotley_When]

ash73 said:

Who is the new Defender aimed at?

Farmers won't spend that much on a utilitarian vehicle, families will buy a Disco/Rangie, and folk who just want some fun will buy a Jimny; I don't get who will buy this.

Me?

Early 30's, no kids, dog, spend most of my time in the Countryside or going for avocado toast whilst my wife goes for a massage in town on a Saturday morning.

I want a big comfy 4x4. I love Land Rovers, but can't afford a Range Rover or Disco 5. Don't like the Range Rover Sport, Disco Sport or Evoke. If I was buying a Land Rover, it'd be a Velar, but the perfect for me is a Defender you can use without getting wet when it rains. The new one looks perfect for me.

[deadtom]

300bhp/ton said:

Many thanks

In that case I withdraw my comments re: D4.

I assume it is based on the L494 architecture then?

Yeah its underpinned by the same hardware as the FFRR, RRS and disco 5.

I have to be somewhat cautious about what I say, rule of thumb is that if it's already in the public domain then we can talk about it, but I think it's now pretty common knowledge that it'll share architecture with the aforementioned, and will be ingenium petrol and diesel powered with >4 cylinders and hybrid tech on the way.

As someone who loves old land rovers (I was bought up on a diet of series 3, disco 1 and 2, and have used (and abused) defender and disco 3 for proper outdoors work) I am still a fan of the new Defender and think LR have done a good job with it.

Probably worth noting that I do not work for JLR, I am a bottom rung of the ladder pen pusher for an external company who deal with technical matters for JLR and others

[akirk]

DonkeyApple said:

akirk said:

ash73 said:

Who is the new Defender aimed at?

Farmers won't spend that much on a utilitarian vehicle, families will buy a Disco/Rangie, and folk who just want some fun will buy a Jimny; I don't get who will buy this.

In the Cotswolds - all the Disco 4 owners who think the Disco 5 looks ugly and won’t buy it are waiting to see whether this offers them what they want - a utilitarian car with comfort that can tow the horses and throw in the children and dogs - I suspect it will be a good match

I suspect there is a good chance that it will make the Disco redundant in many quarters. Outside of being a myopic Mormon, if this car can do what the Disco 4 did but look better than the Disco 5 then certainly in the UK I can’t see that many people going for the Disco over this?

Absolutely - there is a reason that Disco 4s are going up in value currently - people are desperate to get them / hold onto them. A friend has one - the car tows a horse trailer / is filled with children, now teenagers, takes 7 up to go skiing, is basically a van in luxury format - so it does all the utilitarian things we discuss ref. the defender, but in luxury - and in today's world, that is what people want - they like the romantic ideal of the defender, but not the inconvenience - if you look at both defender and disco 4 - the ability to carry 7 is a big draw on both - but the disco you will drive across France - the defender you might take to the local pony meet or the pub.

I was talking to another friend yesterday about their car arrangements for an event in a few weeks - they are staying with mutual friends who have a long wheelbase defender - but no, they will use the S-Max because they are driving 30 miles and the defender will be uncomfortable / not ideal for pretty dresses / etc. - you couldn't get two more rural families - land agent / land owning / horse owning / sheep owning / etc. but the defender is not being chosen for transport - and I think this sums up a lot of local views.

I know a lot of people with Discos - farmers with several of them, families with a Disco for the wife and another car for the husband - they are all holding onto them and awaiting the Defender in the hope that it will replace the Disco 4 - the Disco 5 is almost universally disliked.

[Tom_Spotley_When]

300bhp/ton said:

Tom_Spotley_When said:

My father in law gets a new SUV every 3 years, by which time he's generally covered close to 100k work miles. I can't imagine doing that in a Defender, can you?

But why would you buy a Defender or even consider one for that type of use? JLR sell 10 other vehicles that would be ideal for doing that.



Sorry I'm just a little lost on the relevance.

I mean would you buy a new Elise or Exige to do 33,000 miles a year in?

He buys a new SUV every 3 years. He'd never have considered a Defender previously. He might now that Land Rover have changed it. That's a new market, that didn't previously exist.

[InitialDave]

DonkeyApple said:

I think it’s important to look at this from the context of our own age and geographic location.

OK, those are good points, though I guess my perspective would be that a certain amount of that stuff is addressed through the separation of Range Rover as more its 'own' brand rather than being a Land Rover model line.

Perhaps one counter I'd make is that maybe such markets simply aren't served by what the Land Rover Defender brand is. By all means, JLR should be going after that market, but if it's best served by something under the Range Rover or Discovery label, then that's fine.

[akirk]

InitialDave said:

Perhaps one counter I'd make is that maybe such markets simply aren't served by what the Land Rover Defender brand is.

I think that one big issue is that the original brand - functional car that can do anything - is no longer quite the same...
if you look back at how the series land rovers were sold and the 1000s of bits you could buy for them - they were sold basically as civilised tractors - with PTO attachments / tracked wheels / ability to go on rail tracks / etc. etc. - so this was the RR equivalent of its day - take the very basic tractor and replace it with this car that will take you around the farm / run the farm / go to market etc... i.e. multi-purpose...

the RR developed that message with taking the farm vehicle off the farm to market - and modern LR / RR vehicles take it a step further into the modern world and today's needs - one car that can take the dogs for a walk / tow the horses / do the school run / take the family skiing - it is the modern equivalent.

The world has changed - no farmer would pull a plough with a defender - tractors that were very basic in the days of a series 1 are the opposite end of that scale now - any farm that is viable has very specialised machinery - so the equivalent multi-purpose need is the leisure sector, and that is serviced by the various current models, and the Defender has little value in that sector - about the biggest reason I hear for buying a Defender is to not care if it gets scratched! - i.e. nothing to do with the car or it's capabilities!

So, the world has moved on - there is pretty much zero scope for the original LR brand - and the new brand space is one fulfilled by the current LR models - they are pretty good at analysing this at levels of detail way beyond casual discussions on PH. The brand remains similar - multi-functional car, but what is meant by multi-functional has moved from the world of work to the world of leisure

Edited by akirk on Monday 10th June 10:07