RE: Porsche 911 Carrera S vs Audi R8 RWS: PH Video!

[dvshannow]

All this talk of “rareness” is somewhat missing the point to me

If you want to buy a 100k car to stand out then yes it’s not the best use of funds

But the relatively popularity of the 911 in the bracket means - far more so than in the mass market sectors - that you can have your cake and eat it.

By that I mean you get a car where they can afford to design a lot more stuff that’s bespoke than other cars , and everything is really well put together

A friend has a Jaguar SVR and the fit and finish inside is far off the 991 (not sure about 992) while everything in the 911 has been honed and refined over the years , that doesn’t just mean chassis dynamics but air con that’s quiet and powerful, wipers that do their job, great hifi options

Not to mention the popularity means better residuals and more decent indies, as what people want in a 10y old car (ex v high end stuff) is confidence they can run it for reasonable costs - sure all these cars are complex vs say a 993 but I’d wager you would be better off running a current 911 in 10y than either R8’s or SVRs both from reliability and cost if things do go wrong perspectives

So I take the sales success as a positive

[gigglebug]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Again, you are confusing the fact that I am abusing you as being angry. You are far from making me angry dhead.

My obsession? You are the one who has felt the need to reference me first this morning you absolute cockwomble!!

I don't believe for a second that Wednesday mornings are the only part of your life that is dull you boring tt.

At least if I am tying you up here you can't be boring the st out anyone else, I'm treating this as a public service now!

[gigglebug]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Because nobody has seen that before you bellend! Why are you so boring?

You appear to be getting a little obsessed?

[gigglebug]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

You are really fking dull, that's what I would say you boring tt. I can't think of a single situation where your given ability would be at all useful.

[gigglebug]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

You can even make attempts to get a rise through humour totally fking dull! Why are you such a boring tt?

[blueg33]

gigglebug said:

You can even make attempts to get a rise through humour totally fking dull! Why are you such a boring tt?

Seriously giggle, shut up you are trashing the thread and mainly it seems because someone disagrees with you.

You are rude and offensive, plus repetitive.

[dvshannow]

Gigglebug say something amusing and clever show him how it’s done

[Julian Thompson]

To be fair, after PH worked hard on the video to discuss the 992 and that really rather fab R8’s it’s a bit of a poor show that we are back in the playground. Come on guys knock it on the head.

Anyway. Loving the R8’s rear drive and not really feeling the new 911 like I thought I would.

I’m a colossal 911 fan but this new one might just be a stretch too far for me - because I’d take the R8 absolutely every time over the 911 tested.

(I’ve driven neither but if I were buying a car now on a whim from those pair it would be the Audi)

911 might just be too big and tourer like for me, now. There isn’t much point buying a 911 to cruise as there are many cars that are a lot cheaper that do that job really well. A 911 should be exciting from the off and I think they might have lost that?

Edited by Julian Thompson on Wednesday 8th May 19:44

[Leithen]

I'm a bit puzzled by the criticism the 992 is getting for being too big.

Width for the Carrera S 1852mm, which appears to be the same as the GT3, slightly less than the 991 Turbo (1880mm) and slightly more than the 991 Carrera (1808mm).

An R8 is 1940mm, Vantage 1940mm, M5 1903mm.

I get that the wider from track is a change, but its competitors don't appear to be any slimmer.

[Julian Thompson]

Interesting point.

Maybe it just seems more bloaty and diluted - but facts are facts - it’s not really bigger!

[white_goodman]

blueg33 said:

kbf1981 said:

There's two ways to see this.

I've had a Ferrari, Lamborghini, and a 911.... the Ferrari & Lamborghini were not practical daily drivers, simply because to go anywhere took ages. You'd have people trying to race you, stopping to talk to you when you filled up, and it all took time. They felt special, but were hugely inconvenient.

Sometimes you want a "special" daily driver - I know I do, because I work so much I don't get time to go on Sunday morning drives. My only driving time is with family on weekends (in which case, you need back seats for kids), or commuting to work. A 911 fits into that lifestyle perfectly where nothing else really does.

What other "special" car can you use everyday?

Must have 4 seats.
Must feel special but not make you a target.
Don't want something that depreciates £30k per year (like many AMG's do in their first year)

As lovely as many other 4 seaters are.... there's nothing that is:

1) As technically competent
2) Feels special yet can be used every day
3) Looks special but can be used every day
4) Holds it's value as well
5) Is relatively rare - a lot of people will say "no they're not", but I have yet to see another 992 out in the wild, and the only 911 I see regularly is my neighbours. Ultimately they only sell 3000 x 911's per year in the UK, and that's not a lot - there are 2.5m new cars registered in the UK each year, so 911's make up 0.0012% of all new car sales... - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42571828
6) Fits young children

The only other options are:
- Aston DBS / DB11 etc. - not as good, hemorage money
- Bentley GT - lovely car, but a slightly different thing (more GT than sports car)
- M3/4, RS4/5 etc... - always feels and looks like a 4 series / saloon car, as nice as they are, and again, hemorage money

A 911 is the fastest A-B 4 seater on a typical British road you can buy, that's also comfortable, and a lovely place to sit. It holds its value well, will always be a nice car, and you know exactly what you're getting into when you buy one (no mystery depreciation ala F-Type, Tesla, AMG, Aston etc). Plus they're just very good. My standard 992 C2S can crack 124mph in 10 seconds, and has a 7min24 Nurburing time....from a car that I can talk to, that has surround sound, and a heated steering wheel.

That was my brief. I have a lotus Evora as a daily. I bought used but after 20k miles it’s still worth what I paid, it is reliable, gives great sense of occasion, is a nice place to sit and is rare compared to 911.

I see multiple 911’s every day, I see an Evora less than once a month. If rareity is a motive a 911 doesn’t meet the brief.

Good post and it sums up very nicely the unique appeal of the 991/992 and indeed the 911 as a whole for the last 50+ years and why it has endured and been so successful for a car of its type. It means something coming from someone who has owned more exotic cars too. However, although I have to profess that I have never driven a 911, in the last two generations, despite being a good-looking car, it has lost its appeal to me. To me, the 964/993 were properly desirable and although less handsome, the 996/997 still had appeal as a pure driver's sports car. The 992 offers much. More power and luxury than ever before and possibly an even better all-rounder but it's a pretty big car now and the fact that sales of automatic 911s have overtaken sales of manual 911s possibly says something about how the nature of the car has changed. I also find the asking price a little hard to swallow. When the 911 was a 50k car, it felt like something that I might be able to aspire to down the road but now I'm not so sure. The price of entry has almost doubled and even taking inflation into account, sadly my income hasn't in the same time period!

If I was after an exciting sports car, I might be more tempted to go in the direction of a 981 Cayman or Alpine. If I had 100k to spend, I can't help feeling that a V8V, F-Type SVR or Audi R8 might offer more of a sense of occasion.

I guess the kicker is that the 911 offers the extra seats and more solid residuals, certainly than the Aston/Jaguar but then there are other alternatives now. A GTR is faster, an Evora as practical, sweet-handling and should hold its value equally well and one might also consider a BMW M850i or an AMG GT 4 door for some V8 drama. One could argue that the AMG is more of a Panamera rival but then it would be reasonable to say that the AMG GT is a 2-seat 911 rival and the 4 door has more in common with the 2 door than the Panamera does with the 911 (i.e. the engine is in the same place and it uses the same engine).

For the purpose of this comparison, if I didn't need rear seats then it would be the R8 for me no question and if I did then perhaps one of the above...or an Audi RS5 (perhaps not as special but just as quick and considerably cheaper) and an older 911/V8V/R8 for ultimate thrills. Either way, you're not wrong and I would love to own a 911 some day.

[blueg33]

Leithen said:

I'm a bit puzzled by the criticism the 992 is getting for being too big.

Width for the Carrera S 1852mm, which appears to be the same as the GT3, slightly less than the 991 Turbo (1880mm) and slightly more than the 991 Carrera (1808mm).

An R8 is 1940mm, Vantage 1940mm, M5 1903mm.

I get that the wider from track is a change, but its competitors don't appear to be any slimmer.

An Evora is 1972 wide and and a Ferrari 488 is 1952 to 1975, so I agree the 992 isn't that wide

[Nuttcase]

This months Evo placed the 2019 R8 Performance ahead of the 992. They likened the 992 to a smaller Panamera, still gave it 4.5 stars though.

[BlackPrince]

eddharris said:

You can build the 992 to whatever spec you like, you don't have to kit it out like an S class or 2 door Panamera. So, go minimalist and enjoy what is a very good car. I live in Ontario and always have my heated steering wheel on from the end of Autumn to early Spring.

I'd still the take the R8 in this instance though, just seems to have more presence and a sense of occasion.

For sure I understand that its an option, but imho I think even having such fripperies on the options list dilutes the focus of the car.

Perhaps I'm missing the point though, and the 911 is such a great car because one can customize it to one's ideal combination of luxury and sportiness

[Leithen]

Nuttcase said:

This months Evo placed the 2019 R8 Performance ahead of the 992. They likened the 992 to a smaller Panamera, still gave it 4.5 stars though.

Car's group test with a McLaren 570S and standard R8 places the 992 "first" with five stars. It rates the McLaren the better sports car, but the 992 the better car.

Car said:

"Wickedly capable, rewarding, versatile and desireable: a masterful reinvention."

It will be interesting to see how opinions develop over the next 12 months. No doubt, given it's lack of rarity, it'll get a lot of use by journalists...

[blueg33]

Leithen said:

Nuttcase said:

This months Evo placed the 2019 R8 Performance ahead of the 992. They likened the 992 to a smaller Panamera, still gave it 4.5 stars though.

Car's group test with a McLaren 570S and standard R8 places the 992 "first" with five stars. It rates the McLaren the better sports car, but the 992 the better car.

Car said:

"Wickedly capable, rewarding, versatile and desireable: a masterful reinvention."

It will be interesting to see how opinions develop over the next 12 months. No doubt, given it's lack of rarity, it'll get a lot of use by journalists...

The sports car comment is telling. The 992 is a GT car, Porsche’s everyday sports cars are the Cayman and Boxster.

That’s not necessarily bad, most Porsche buyers probably don’t want what I would call a sports car, they are more compromised and harder to live with.

Choose your brief and then choose the right car to meet the brief.

[Leithen]

blueg33 said:

The sports car comment is telling. The 992 is a GT car, Porsche’s everyday sports cars are the Cayman and Boxster.

That’s not necessarily bad, most Porsche buyers probably don’t want what I would call a sports car, they are more compromised and harder to live with.

Choose your brief and then choose the right car to meet the brief.

Is it, or does it, need to be so binary though? That a carbon fibre monocoque two seater that costed £65K more in the test, rates as the better sports car shouldn't preclude the 992's ability in that department, or perhaps come as a surprise.

I rather see the 992 as both GT and sports car. The test would seem to back that up, and I've yet to read anything that casts doubt on it's handling and performance ability. The criticism would appear to be that it is not visceral enough, and that if anything, at legal speeds it is too accomplished.

Again, I think time will tell regarding this as more hours are spent behind the wheel and we find out what living with it is like.

[blueg33]

Leithen said:

blueg33 said:

The sports car comment is telling. The 992 is a GT car, Porsche’s everyday sports cars are the Cayman and Boxster.

That’s not necessarily bad, most Porsche buyers probably don’t want what I would call a sports car, they are more compromised and harder to live with.

Choose your brief and then choose the right car to meet the brief.

Is it, or does it, need to be so binary though? That a carbon fibre monocoque two seater that costed £65K more in the test, rates as the better sports car shouldn't preclude the 992's ability in that department, or perhaps come as a surprise.

I rather see the 992 as both GT and sports car. The test would seem to back that up, and I've yet to read anything that casts doubt on it's handling and performance ability. The criticism would appear to be that it is not visceral enough, and that if anything, at legal speeds it is too accomplished.

Again, I think time will tell regarding this as more hours are spent behind the wheel and we find out what living with it is like.

Its not binary is a sort of sliding scale that is really determined by the user, what he/she is used to, what he/she has driven before and what he/she expects, I thing the various reviews and comparisons point to this.

So IMO taking the above into account on a scale I would suggest that the 992 is more GT than the R8 which is more GT than a Caterham. Looking the otherwau along the scale the 992 is more sports car than a Bentley Continental which is more sports car than an S class Merc

[dvshannow]

blueg33 said:

Leithen said:

blueg33 said:

The sports car comment is telling. The 992 is a GT car, Porsche’s everyday sports cars are the Cayman and Boxster.

That’s not necessarily bad, most Porsche buyers probably don’t want what I would call a sports car, they are more compromised and harder to live with.

Choose your brief and then choose the right car to meet the brief.

Is it, or does it, need to be so binary though? That a carbon fibre monocoque two seater that costed £65K more in the test, rates as the better sports car shouldn't preclude the 992's ability in that department, or perhaps come as a surprise.

I rather see the 992 as both GT and sports car. The test would seem to back that up, and I've yet to read anything that casts doubt on it's handling and performance ability. The criticism would appear to be that it is not visceral enough, and that if anything, at legal speeds it is too accomplished.

Again, I think time will tell regarding this as more hours are spent behind the wheel and we find out what living with it is like.

Its not binary is a sort of sliding scale that is really determined by the user, what he/she is used to, what he/she has driven before and what he/she expects, I thing the various reviews and comparisons point to this.

So IMO taking the above into account on a scale I would suggest that the 992 is more GT than the R8 which is more GT than a Caterham. Looking the otherwau along the scale the 992 is more sports car than a Bentley Continental which is more sports car than an S class Merc

This is true kind of but the 911 range is really flexible so it straddles the R8

A rwd with buckets, sports exhaust and lowered suspension feels a lot more like a sports car than a 4wd with comforts or a targa.

Some might say you need to go to a GT car to straddle the R8 but it’s close either way

[Sledgehammer]

turbo cars have made me lazy for many years now. Monster low end torque that rewards you without much effort, compared to an engine that needs to be driven like a 600cc motorcycle to get the same rewards. The RWS feels special in so many ways, because it really is a different beast from most sport cars on the road today. Visually, sonically, it delivers. The 911 gives much the same or better, but it just doesn’t deliver the same daily driver experience. Pedestrians get out cameras everywhere for the RWS. They physically point with outstretched arms telling their friend, R8!