RE: Porsche 911 Carrera S vs Audi R8 RWS: PH Video!
Discussion
kbf1981 said:
Raygun said:
Deep said:
Have you driven one or do you mean the styling is 'super boring'?
and not attracting too much attention.
.
That's the trouble with a Porsche these days they just aren't special enough when going out in one, victim of their own success.and not attracting too much attention.
.
I've had a Ferrari, Lamborghini, and a 911.... the Ferrari & Lamborghini were not practical daily drivers, simply because to go anywhere took ages. You'd have people trying to race you, stopping to talk to you when you filled up, and it all took time. They felt special, but were hugely inconvenient.
Sometimes you want a "special" daily driver - I know I do, because I work so much I don't get time to go on Sunday morning drives. My only driving time is with family on weekends (in which case, you need back seats for kids), or commuting to work. A 911 fits into that lifestyle perfectly where nothing else really does.
What other "special" car can you use everyday?
Must have 4 seats.
Must feel special but not make you a target.
Don't want something that depreciates £30k per year (like many AMG's do in their first year)
As lovely as many other 4 seaters are.... there's nothing that is:
1) As technically competent
2) Feels special yet can be used every day
3) Looks special but can be used every day
4) Holds it's value as well
5) Is relatively rare - a lot of people will say "no they're not", but I have yet to see another 992 out in the wild, and the only 911 I see regularly is my neighbours. Ultimately they only sell 3000 x 911's per year in the UK, and that's not a lot - there are 2.5m new cars registered in the UK each year, so 911's make up 0.0012% of all new car sales... - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42571828
6) Fits young children
The only other options are:
- Aston DBS / DB11 etc. - not as good, hemorage money
- Bentley GT - lovely car, but a slightly different thing (more GT than sports car)
- M3/4, RS4/5 etc... - always feels and looks like a 4 series / saloon car, as nice as they are, and again, hemorage money
A 911 is the fastest A-B 4 seater on a typical British road you can buy, that's also comfortable, and a lovely place to sit. It holds its value well, will always be a nice car, and you know exactly what you're getting into when you buy one (no mystery depreciation ala F-Type, Tesla, AMG, Aston etc). Plus they're just very good. My standard 992 C2S can crack 124mph in 10 seconds, and has a 7min24 Nurburing time....from a car that I can talk to, that has surround sound, and a heated steering wheel.
Many have tried to make a rival to the 911, and some have made a better car in some respects, but no-one has come up with a car that matches the very broad range of talent that the 911 has. I guess that's why its been such a success over decades now.
I'm off for a poke about in the classifieds now...
You make very good points, and I'm not trying to be a minimalist contrarian who thinks an Atom is a great winter car, but why does a 992 need or even want for, a bl00dy heated steering wheel?!
Don't get me wrong, I love heated seats for example, but even here in snowy Canada, when I visit my parents and drive my father's W222 S550, the heated steering wheel and armrests only get used if its significantly colder than zero degrees centigrade, a rare situation in the UK.
Forgive my pedantry for focussing on this one issue, but I think its symptomatic of a larger "problem" at Porsche, that the non-GT 911s have become much closer to 2 door Panameras than they once were. And I say that as someone who greatly appreciates tech that genuinely makes our lives easier - it annoys me for instance that despite Audi owning Ducati, the virtual dash with integrated sat-nav hasn't made it to their bikes yet, and the first Ducati to do that will be my next bike. I love a good audio system so I love the fact that Porsche probably has the best audio out of any sportscar with the Burmester system. But I do wonder if feedback is no longer the priority it once was compared to luxury fripperies - though I'm sure the 992 is utterly brilliant to drive
Don't get me wrong, I love heated seats for example, but even here in snowy Canada, when I visit my parents and drive my father's W222 S550, the heated steering wheel and armrests only get used if its significantly colder than zero degrees centigrade, a rare situation in the UK.
Forgive my pedantry for focussing on this one issue, but I think its symptomatic of a larger "problem" at Porsche, that the non-GT 911s have become much closer to 2 door Panameras than they once were. And I say that as someone who greatly appreciates tech that genuinely makes our lives easier - it annoys me for instance that despite Audi owning Ducati, the virtual dash with integrated sat-nav hasn't made it to their bikes yet, and the first Ducati to do that will be my next bike. I love a good audio system so I love the fact that Porsche probably has the best audio out of any sportscar with the Burmester system. But I do wonder if feedback is no longer the priority it once was compared to luxury fripperies - though I'm sure the 992 is utterly brilliant to drive
BlackPrince said:
You make very good points, and I'm not trying to be a minimalist contrarian who thinks an Atom is a great winter car, but why does a 992 need or even want for, a bl00dy heated steering wheel?!
Don't get me wrong, I love heated seats for example, but even here in snowy Canada, when I visit my parents and drive my father's W222 S550, the heated steering wheel and armrests only get used if its significantly colder than zero degrees centigrade, a rare situation in the UK.
Forgive my pedantry for focussing on this one issue, but I think its symptomatic of a larger "problem" at Porsche, that the non-GT 911s have become much closer to 2 door Panameras than they once were. And I say that as someone who greatly appreciates tech that genuinely makes our lives easier - it annoys me for instance that despite Audi owning Ducati, the virtual dash with integrated sat-nav hasn't made it to their bikes yet, and the first Ducati to do that will be my next bike. I love a good audio system so I love the fact that Porsche probably has the best audio out of any sportscar with the Burmester system. But I do wonder if feedback is no longer the priority it once was compared to luxury fripperies - though I'm sure the 992 is utterly brilliant to drive
In the UK, the heated steering wheel is an optional extra.Don't get me wrong, I love heated seats for example, but even here in snowy Canada, when I visit my parents and drive my father's W222 S550, the heated steering wheel and armrests only get used if its significantly colder than zero degrees centigrade, a rare situation in the UK.
Forgive my pedantry for focussing on this one issue, but I think its symptomatic of a larger "problem" at Porsche, that the non-GT 911s have become much closer to 2 door Panameras than they once were. And I say that as someone who greatly appreciates tech that genuinely makes our lives easier - it annoys me for instance that despite Audi owning Ducati, the virtual dash with integrated sat-nav hasn't made it to their bikes yet, and the first Ducati to do that will be my next bike. I love a good audio system so I love the fact that Porsche probably has the best audio out of any sportscar with the Burmester system. But I do wonder if feedback is no longer the priority it once was compared to luxury fripperies - though I'm sure the 992 is utterly brilliant to drive
I can't see how Porsche offering it as an option makes the 911 a bad car?
You can spec the 911 to be the car you want, and to be fair, have been able to do so for much of the past 50 years.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes he didn’t think that part through in an otherwise sound post , but despite the stats you see a lot of 911s in certain parts of the country , Surrey for example they are all over the place Am still waiting to see a good test of a 991.2 GTS vs 992 for the more sporty setups (RWD GTS with buckets) does not feel like an overly GT car to me despite the posts on here and wonder if a well specced 992 keeps that feel or need to wait for GTS models
jakesmith said:
FN2TypeR said:
Audemars said:
The two ugliest sport cars ever made.
Unsurprisingly, those who like one often like the other. Its just the way some are programmed. A bit like men who like other men.
Unsurprisingly, those who like one often like the other. Its just the way some are programmed. A bit like men who like other men.
What a thing of beauty they are
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'm not saying a 992 is rare. A 911 is rare in the UK as a percentage of new cars sold.Again - fact.....911's make up 0.0012% of all new car registrations in the UK.
I personally don't care if it's rare or not rare, maybe rare is the wrong word, but everyone does not drive a Porsche and to say any different makes you sound very blinkered
BlackPrince said:
You make very good points, and I'm not trying to be a minimalist contrarian who thinks an Atom is a great winter car, but why does a 992 need or even want for, a bl00dy heated steering wheel?!
Don't get me wrong, I love heated seats for example, but even here in snowy Canada, when I visit my parents and drive my father's W222 S550, the heated steering wheel and armrests only get used if its significantly colder than zero degrees centigrade, a rare situation in the UK.
Forgive my pedantry for focussing on this one issue, but I think its symptomatic of a larger "problem" at Porsche, that the non-GT 911s have become much closer to 2 door Panameras than they once were. And I say that as someone who greatly appreciates tech that genuinely makes our lives easier - it annoys me for instance that despite Audi owning Ducati, the virtual dash with integrated sat-nav hasn't made it to their bikes yet, and the first Ducati to do that will be my next bike. I love a good audio system so I love the fact that Porsche probably has the best audio out of any sportscar with the Burmester system. But I do wonder if feedback is no longer the priority it once was compared to luxury fripperies - though I'm sure the 992 is utterly brilliant to drive
You can build the 992 to whatever spec you like, you don't have to kit it out like an S class or 2 door Panamera. So, go minimalist and enjoy what is a very good car. I live in Ontario and always have my heated steering wheel on from the end of Autumn to early Spring.Don't get me wrong, I love heated seats for example, but even here in snowy Canada, when I visit my parents and drive my father's W222 S550, the heated steering wheel and armrests only get used if its significantly colder than zero degrees centigrade, a rare situation in the UK.
Forgive my pedantry for focussing on this one issue, but I think its symptomatic of a larger "problem" at Porsche, that the non-GT 911s have become much closer to 2 door Panameras than they once were. And I say that as someone who greatly appreciates tech that genuinely makes our lives easier - it annoys me for instance that despite Audi owning Ducati, the virtual dash with integrated sat-nav hasn't made it to their bikes yet, and the first Ducati to do that will be my next bike. I love a good audio system so I love the fact that Porsche probably has the best audio out of any sportscar with the Burmester system. But I do wonder if feedback is no longer the priority it once was compared to luxury fripperies - though I'm sure the 992 is utterly brilliant to drive
I'd still the take the R8 in this instance though, just seems to have more presence and a sense of occasion.
Helicopter123 said:
In the UK, the heated steering wheel is an optional extra.
I can't see how Porsche offering it as an option makes the 911 a bad car?
You can spec the 911 to be the car you want, and to be fair, have been able to do so for much of the past 50 years.
I never stated that the heated steering wheel made the 911 a bad car - only that the fact that Porsche offers it is perhaps indicative of Porsche moving even further into the category of "luxury car/GT" with the 992 (in addition to the semi-autonomous driving capabilities). I can't see how Porsche offering it as an option makes the 911 a bad car?
You can spec the 911 to be the car you want, and to be fair, have been able to do so for much of the past 50 years.
Of course, perhaps its always been this way and each 911 has offered optional equipment commensurate with the luxury cars of the time, I don't really know.
I'm sure the GT models will be wonderful to drive, and I'm sure the 992 non-GT cars are great as well.
To use a motorcycling example, the BMW S1000RR offers heated handlebar grips, and though most owners probably don't use them, they are certainly very useful, and don't add much weight or change the focus of the bike. If they offered for example, a heated passenger seat, to me it be indicative of a shift in focus. Would it change the power to weight ratio much or increase its laptime? Probably not, but some things are perhaps more symbolic of a larger directional shift
kbf1981 said:
Drive a 911 and tell me they aren't brilliant.
I've had loads of cars. Just taken delivery of a 992. It's awesome.
The typical anti Porsche bunch who typically have never owned or driven one....
Driven several. 993 c2s, 997 c2, C4, turbo, 996 turbo, 991. I've had loads of cars. Just taken delivery of a 992. It's awesome.
The typical anti Porsche bunch who typically have never owned or driven one....
They are not brilliant, they are good. They all have flaws, but so far, as a sports car only the 993 does it for be, but I still chose the finesse of a Lotus.
blueg33 said:
kbf1981 said:
Drive a 911 and tell me they aren't brilliant.
I've had loads of cars. Just taken delivery of a 992. It's awesome.
The typical anti Porsche bunch who typically have never owned or driven one....
Driven several. 993 c2s, 997 c2, C4, turbo, 996 turbo, 991. I've had loads of cars. Just taken delivery of a 992. It's awesome.
The typical anti Porsche bunch who typically have never owned or driven one....
They are not brilliant, they are good. They all have flaws, but so far, as a sports car only the 993 does it for be, but I still chose the finesse of a Lotus.
kbf1981 said:
There's two ways to see this.
I've had a Ferrari, Lamborghini, and a 911.... the Ferrari & Lamborghini were not practical daily drivers, simply because to go anywhere took ages. You'd have people trying to race you, stopping to talk to you when you filled up, and it all took time. They felt special, but were hugely inconvenient.
Sometimes you want a "special" daily driver - I know I do, because I work so much I don't get time to go on Sunday morning drives. My only driving time is with family on weekends (in which case, you need back seats for kids), or commuting to work. A 911 fits into that lifestyle perfectly where nothing else really does.
What other "special" car can you use everyday?
Must have 4 seats.
Must feel special but not make you a target.
Don't want something that depreciates £30k per year (like many AMG's do in their first year)
As lovely as many other 4 seaters are.... there's nothing that is:
1) As technically competent
2) Feels special yet can be used every day
3) Looks special but can be used every day
4) Holds it's value as well
5) Is relatively rare - a lot of people will say "no they're not", but I have yet to see another 992 out in the wild, and the only 911 I see regularly is my neighbours. Ultimately they only sell 3000 x 911's per year in the UK, and that's not a lot - there are 2.5m new cars registered in the UK each year, so 911's make up 0.0012% of all new car sales... - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42571828
6) Fits young children
The only other options are:
- Aston DBS / DB11 etc. - not as good, hemorage money
- Bentley GT - lovely car, but a slightly different thing (more GT than sports car)
- M3/4, RS4/5 etc... - always feels and looks like a 4 series / saloon car, as nice as they are, and again, hemorage money
A 911 is the fastest A-B 4 seater on a typical British road you can buy, that's also comfortable, and a lovely place to sit. It holds its value well, will always be a nice car, and you know exactly what you're getting into when you buy one (no mystery depreciation ala F-Type, Tesla, AMG, Aston etc). Plus they're just very good. My standard 992 C2S can crack 124mph in 10 seconds, and has a 7min24 Nurburing time....from a car that I can talk to, that has surround sound, and a heated steering wheel.
That was my brief. I have a lotus Evora as a daily. I bought used but after 20k miles it’s still worth what I paid, it is reliable, gives great sense of occasion, is a nice place to sit and is rare compared to 911. I've had a Ferrari, Lamborghini, and a 911.... the Ferrari & Lamborghini were not practical daily drivers, simply because to go anywhere took ages. You'd have people trying to race you, stopping to talk to you when you filled up, and it all took time. They felt special, but were hugely inconvenient.
Sometimes you want a "special" daily driver - I know I do, because I work so much I don't get time to go on Sunday morning drives. My only driving time is with family on weekends (in which case, you need back seats for kids), or commuting to work. A 911 fits into that lifestyle perfectly where nothing else really does.
What other "special" car can you use everyday?
Must have 4 seats.
Must feel special but not make you a target.
Don't want something that depreciates £30k per year (like many AMG's do in their first year)
As lovely as many other 4 seaters are.... there's nothing that is:
1) As technically competent
2) Feels special yet can be used every day
3) Looks special but can be used every day
4) Holds it's value as well
5) Is relatively rare - a lot of people will say "no they're not", but I have yet to see another 992 out in the wild, and the only 911 I see regularly is my neighbours. Ultimately they only sell 3000 x 911's per year in the UK, and that's not a lot - there are 2.5m new cars registered in the UK each year, so 911's make up 0.0012% of all new car sales... - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42571828
6) Fits young children
The only other options are:
- Aston DBS / DB11 etc. - not as good, hemorage money
- Bentley GT - lovely car, but a slightly different thing (more GT than sports car)
- M3/4, RS4/5 etc... - always feels and looks like a 4 series / saloon car, as nice as they are, and again, hemorage money
A 911 is the fastest A-B 4 seater on a typical British road you can buy, that's also comfortable, and a lovely place to sit. It holds its value well, will always be a nice car, and you know exactly what you're getting into when you buy one (no mystery depreciation ala F-Type, Tesla, AMG, Aston etc). Plus they're just very good. My standard 992 C2S can crack 124mph in 10 seconds, and has a 7min24 Nurburing time....from a car that I can talk to, that has surround sound, and a heated steering wheel.
I see multiple 911’s every day, I see an Evora less than once a month. If rareity is a motive a 911 doesn’t meet the brief.
blueg33 said:
kbf1981 said:
There's two ways to see this.
I've had a Ferrari, Lamborghini, and a 911.... the Ferrari & Lamborghini were not practical daily drivers, simply because to go anywhere took ages. You'd have people trying to race you, stopping to talk to you when you filled up, and it all took time. They felt special, but were hugely inconvenient.
Sometimes you want a "special" daily driver - I know I do, because I work so much I don't get time to go on Sunday morning drives. My only driving time is with family on weekends (in which case, you need back seats for kids), or commuting to work. A 911 fits into that lifestyle perfectly where nothing else really does.
What other "special" car can you use everyday?
Must have 4 seats.
Must feel special but not make you a target.
Don't want something that depreciates £30k per year (like many AMG's do in their first year)
As lovely as many other 4 seaters are.... there's nothing that is:
1) As technically competent
2) Feels special yet can be used every day
3) Looks special but can be used every day
4) Holds it's value as well
5) Is relatively rare - a lot of people will say "no they're not", but I have yet to see another 992 out in the wild, and the only 911 I see regularly is my neighbours. Ultimately they only sell 3000 x 911's per year in the UK, and that's not a lot - there are 2.5m new cars registered in the UK each year, so 911's make up 0.0012% of all new car sales... - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42571828
6) Fits young children
The only other options are:
- Aston DBS / DB11 etc. - not as good, hemorage money
- Bentley GT - lovely car, but a slightly different thing (more GT than sports car)
- M3/4, RS4/5 etc... - always feels and looks like a 4 series / saloon car, as nice as they are, and again, hemorage money
A 911 is the fastest A-B 4 seater on a typical British road you can buy, that's also comfortable, and a lovely place to sit. It holds its value well, will always be a nice car, and you know exactly what you're getting into when you buy one (no mystery depreciation ala F-Type, Tesla, AMG, Aston etc). Plus they're just very good. My standard 992 C2S can crack 124mph in 10 seconds, and has a 7min24 Nurburing time....from a car that I can talk to, that has surround sound, and a heated steering wheel.
That was my brief. I have a lotus Evora as a daily. I bought used but after 20k miles it’s still worth what I paid, it is reliable, gives great sense of occasion, is a nice place to sit and is rare compared to 911. I've had a Ferrari, Lamborghini, and a 911.... the Ferrari & Lamborghini were not practical daily drivers, simply because to go anywhere took ages. You'd have people trying to race you, stopping to talk to you when you filled up, and it all took time. They felt special, but were hugely inconvenient.
Sometimes you want a "special" daily driver - I know I do, because I work so much I don't get time to go on Sunday morning drives. My only driving time is with family on weekends (in which case, you need back seats for kids), or commuting to work. A 911 fits into that lifestyle perfectly where nothing else really does.
What other "special" car can you use everyday?
Must have 4 seats.
Must feel special but not make you a target.
Don't want something that depreciates £30k per year (like many AMG's do in their first year)
As lovely as many other 4 seaters are.... there's nothing that is:
1) As technically competent
2) Feels special yet can be used every day
3) Looks special but can be used every day
4) Holds it's value as well
5) Is relatively rare - a lot of people will say "no they're not", but I have yet to see another 992 out in the wild, and the only 911 I see regularly is my neighbours. Ultimately they only sell 3000 x 911's per year in the UK, and that's not a lot - there are 2.5m new cars registered in the UK each year, so 911's make up 0.0012% of all new car sales... - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42571828
6) Fits young children
The only other options are:
- Aston DBS / DB11 etc. - not as good, hemorage money
- Bentley GT - lovely car, but a slightly different thing (more GT than sports car)
- M3/4, RS4/5 etc... - always feels and looks like a 4 series / saloon car, as nice as they are, and again, hemorage money
A 911 is the fastest A-B 4 seater on a typical British road you can buy, that's also comfortable, and a lovely place to sit. It holds its value well, will always be a nice car, and you know exactly what you're getting into when you buy one (no mystery depreciation ala F-Type, Tesla, AMG, Aston etc). Plus they're just very good. My standard 992 C2S can crack 124mph in 10 seconds, and has a 7min24 Nurburing time....from a car that I can talk to, that has surround sound, and a heated steering wheel.
I see multiple 911’s every day, I see an Evora less than once a month. If rareity is a motive a 911 doesn’t meet the brief.
I get that they're popular because they're competent, albeit at a higher price point than many other cars. And for that reason alone (competence), many people will buy them.
Personally though, *I* think they're common, and expensive for what they are. The "special" aspect is a turn off for me, to be honest.
Porsche surely isn't stupid. They have broaden the appeal and envelope of usability with the 991 Carrera and by extension the 992 Carrera and people are buying them and are happy with them. I have never driven a Panamera so can't comment on that but I wouldn't be surprised if they're quite close these days.
I think both the 991 and the 992 are great looking cars but the involvement of old (that I really liked) is sadly all in the past. That matters to me probably more than anything else in a car like a 911 so the newer models are probably not for me. I would actually rather consider a Panamera or perhaps a Taycan depending on how that turns out. If I'm going to have an uninvolved experience it may as well come with air springs and a bit more space and given that no Porsche south of a GT3 sounds good anymore I'm not sure I care about the drivetrain either all that much.
I think both the 991 and the 992 are great looking cars but the involvement of old (that I really liked) is sadly all in the past. That matters to me probably more than anything else in a car like a 911 so the newer models are probably not for me. I would actually rather consider a Panamera or perhaps a Taycan depending on how that turns out. If I'm going to have an uninvolved experience it may as well come with air springs and a bit more space and given that no Porsche south of a GT3 sounds good anymore I'm not sure I care about the drivetrain either all that much.
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