Are you an automatic transmission convert?
Discussion
Many of us will have driven older 3 and 4-speed automatics and experienced the sluggish response and higher fuel consumption or the "tortured cow" soundtrack of an older CVT transmission. They had their place in some luxury cars and SUVs (Mercedes, Jaguars and Range Rovers for instance) but were generally a barrier to performance, decent fuel economy and driving enjoyment. When I was selling cars 10 or so years ago, automatics were still relatively rare but now, especially in performance cars, an automatic transmission, be it a torque convertor or a DCT seems to be the norm rather than the exception with manual transmissions only really being that prevalent in cheaper, "white goods" kind of cars.
At the "top end", Ferraris, Lamborghinis, McLarens etc, "automatic" transmissions have been the norm for a while and to be fair with the quantity of performance that those cars offer, you're probably going to be too busy to shift gears manually.
I'm still a little sceptical of automatic transmissions in the kind of cars that I like to own for driving enjoyment though e.g. hot hatches, sports cars/coupes etc but a friend of mine who works in the automotive industry and is a very keen driver himself, tells me that he will never own another manual car, as a good torque convertor/DCT is just better in terms of speed, user friendliness and fuel economy.
Our last 3 family cars have all been automatics though. For the kind of use they get i.e. stop-start urban driving and longer motorway journeys, the automatic is completely the way to go in something with no sporting pretensions whatsoever. However, we got rid of our first automatic family car (a WJ Grand Cherokee) because the transmission broke and our current family vehicle is booked into the dealership next week because it doesn't always "creep" when you put it in Drive/Reverse. Hopefully, that's covered by warranty though if there is an issue. I've also heard of reliability issues with VW's, Ford's and Nissan's automatic transmissions. In nearly 20 years of mostly manual transmission vehicle ownership, I have only had to change one clutch and one clutch cable. My own commute involves some pretty decent B-roads, so I enjoy the extra involvement of a manual transmission for that. I tried one automatic as a daily (in all fairness an older, 4-speed one) but missed having a manual transmission and I can't see my current vehicle (MINI Cooper) being more fun with an automatic transmission.
Like my friend though, I know several people who would never own another manual. So if you're one of them, what car changed your perception of automatic transmissions?
Personally, I was very impressed with the combination of a DSG transmission and a diesel engine in a mk5 Golf that I tried shortly after they brought out the new transmission. On paper, a diesel engine and an automatic transmission sounded like a terrible combination at the time but it was so smooth and kept the diesel in its narrow power band so well, without the usual rowing of gears that tends to come with a diesel if you want to keep up the pace. Impressive and no fuel consumption penalty either but not exactly fun.
More recently, I was lucky enough to experience a Dodge Challenger R/T with the ZF 8-speed transmission as a rental on a visit to Canada and that was the first time that I can genuinely say that I enjoyed driving an auto. It was a great match for the car, very responsive and the auto blips when downshifting were very cool too. I haven't driven a manual Challenger but imagine that it would feel very heavy and clunky in comparison. Conversely on my previous visit, I rented an automatic Camaro SS and the automatic transmission ruined that car for me. I think that it would have been so much more fun with a manual.
I find most modern autos impressive and pretty responsive but once you've accelerated very quickly up to speed, a little boring and uninvolving. Sure, you can shift "manually" but the transmission in "auto" mode usually does such a good job, then what's the point? Having said that, there are cars that I would like to own that are only available with an automatic transmission e.g. Alpine A110, M3 CS, C63 AMG which I hope would not spoil my enjoyment of driving the car and although I tend to favour a manual transmission in a hot hatch, I wouldn't mind trying a M140i with the ZF 8-speed, as I hear that it's very good.
At the "top end", Ferraris, Lamborghinis, McLarens etc, "automatic" transmissions have been the norm for a while and to be fair with the quantity of performance that those cars offer, you're probably going to be too busy to shift gears manually.
I'm still a little sceptical of automatic transmissions in the kind of cars that I like to own for driving enjoyment though e.g. hot hatches, sports cars/coupes etc but a friend of mine who works in the automotive industry and is a very keen driver himself, tells me that he will never own another manual car, as a good torque convertor/DCT is just better in terms of speed, user friendliness and fuel economy.
Our last 3 family cars have all been automatics though. For the kind of use they get i.e. stop-start urban driving and longer motorway journeys, the automatic is completely the way to go in something with no sporting pretensions whatsoever. However, we got rid of our first automatic family car (a WJ Grand Cherokee) because the transmission broke and our current family vehicle is booked into the dealership next week because it doesn't always "creep" when you put it in Drive/Reverse. Hopefully, that's covered by warranty though if there is an issue. I've also heard of reliability issues with VW's, Ford's and Nissan's automatic transmissions. In nearly 20 years of mostly manual transmission vehicle ownership, I have only had to change one clutch and one clutch cable. My own commute involves some pretty decent B-roads, so I enjoy the extra involvement of a manual transmission for that. I tried one automatic as a daily (in all fairness an older, 4-speed one) but missed having a manual transmission and I can't see my current vehicle (MINI Cooper) being more fun with an automatic transmission.
Like my friend though, I know several people who would never own another manual. So if you're one of them, what car changed your perception of automatic transmissions?
Personally, I was very impressed with the combination of a DSG transmission and a diesel engine in a mk5 Golf that I tried shortly after they brought out the new transmission. On paper, a diesel engine and an automatic transmission sounded like a terrible combination at the time but it was so smooth and kept the diesel in its narrow power band so well, without the usual rowing of gears that tends to come with a diesel if you want to keep up the pace. Impressive and no fuel consumption penalty either but not exactly fun.
More recently, I was lucky enough to experience a Dodge Challenger R/T with the ZF 8-speed transmission as a rental on a visit to Canada and that was the first time that I can genuinely say that I enjoyed driving an auto. It was a great match for the car, very responsive and the auto blips when downshifting were very cool too. I haven't driven a manual Challenger but imagine that it would feel very heavy and clunky in comparison. Conversely on my previous visit, I rented an automatic Camaro SS and the automatic transmission ruined that car for me. I think that it would have been so much more fun with a manual.
I find most modern autos impressive and pretty responsive but once you've accelerated very quickly up to speed, a little boring and uninvolving. Sure, you can shift "manually" but the transmission in "auto" mode usually does such a good job, then what's the point? Having said that, there are cars that I would like to own that are only available with an automatic transmission e.g. Alpine A110, M3 CS, C63 AMG which I hope would not spoil my enjoyment of driving the car and although I tend to favour a manual transmission in a hot hatch, I wouldn't mind trying a M140i with the ZF 8-speed, as I hear that it's very good.
Edited by white_goodman on Friday 17th May 17:37
I have driven a few modern ZF8s and DSGs, they are very impressive indeed. Different league to automatics of old.
Still personally prefer a manual, but it is good that those who prefer automatics have genuinely brilliant gearboxes to choose from now. It can get quite a heated topic, but lets be honest, the vast majority of cars sold in the UK will not be chasing lap records at the nurburgring so the extra few tenths of a second here and there make zero difference so might as well buy what you like
Still personally prefer a manual, but it is good that those who prefer automatics have genuinely brilliant gearboxes to choose from now. It can get quite a heated topic, but lets be honest, the vast majority of cars sold in the UK will not be chasing lap records at the nurburgring so the extra few tenths of a second here and there make zero difference so might as well buy what you like
I've been driving for 12 years, owned 6 manuals, and my latest car is an early 2000s Toyota with a 4 speed Super ECT auto box and column shift.
It's great tbh. Really easy to drive, and the box is fairly smooth. I do miss being able to engine brake, and it would be nice to be able to hold the shift...but generally I don't miss manual in this type of car - a little road trip wagon, which isn't performance oriented.
I'm not sure I would want an auto in a performance car, but for general duties, it's rather handy.
It's great tbh. Really easy to drive, and the box is fairly smooth. I do miss being able to engine brake, and it would be nice to be able to hold the shift...but generally I don't miss manual in this type of car - a little road trip wagon, which isn't performance oriented.
I'm not sure I would want an auto in a performance car, but for general duties, it's rather handy.
It depends.
I drive a 2014 m135i with a ZF8 which I've had for 2.5 years. It's my "yardstick" for auto gearboxes. I wouldn't have the manual, and absolutely love the gearbox/car combo. I drive it probably 80% of the time using the paddles. It's quicker and more economical on a long journey than the equivalent manual.
I don't particularly "like" the VW DSG7 - I think it's a bit too clunky. And I really didn't like the 10-speed Ford auto in a Mustang we recently hired in the US. Coupled with the 2.3T engine it made for a poor experience overall. The manual (6-speed) would've been better in this car.
I drive a 2014 m135i with a ZF8 which I've had for 2.5 years. It's my "yardstick" for auto gearboxes. I wouldn't have the manual, and absolutely love the gearbox/car combo. I drive it probably 80% of the time using the paddles. It's quicker and more economical on a long journey than the equivalent manual.
I don't particularly "like" the VW DSG7 - I think it's a bit too clunky. And I really didn't like the 10-speed Ford auto in a Mustang we recently hired in the US. Coupled with the 2.3T engine it made for a poor experience overall. The manual (6-speed) would've been better in this car.
Edited by rfn on Friday 17th May 17:07
If you do a lot of your driving in a city, then an automatic is an absolute no-brainer.
I've only had automatic main cars (having never driven one previously) since moving to London over a decade ago.
Only this morning I had the misfortune to drive into SW London from Surrey at rush-hour in my (manual) track car.
Every time I came to a standstill I wished I'd been in my lovely automatic hybrid.
I've only had automatic main cars (having never driven one previously) since moving to London over a decade ago.
Only this morning I had the misfortune to drive into SW London from Surrey at rush-hour in my (manual) track car.
Every time I came to a standstill I wished I'd been in my lovely automatic hybrid.
I drive a lot of mundane rentals through work and I always chose automatics for this. They work for the type of driving I do and the cars I get offered. But my goodness, they are boring. I have noticed that driving has now become so dull so much of the time, that driving an automatic is almost more of a chore then the manual, where you at least have something to do.
Having said that, the 6 speed Ford Powershift in the Fiesta is so comically bad it is at least interesting, and the 4 speed Hyundai box was quite responsive and smooth. The VW DSG is downright impressive. The ZF8 is ok, not that good when matched to a diesel, but then I guess they can't work miracles.
Overall, I get the appeal and I may even end up with an automatic as most interesting cars are headed that way. But I would choose the manual version if I could for the car that I own.
Having said that, the 6 speed Ford Powershift in the Fiesta is so comically bad it is at least interesting, and the 4 speed Hyundai box was quite responsive and smooth. The VW DSG is downright impressive. The ZF8 is ok, not that good when matched to a diesel, but then I guess they can't work miracles.
Overall, I get the appeal and I may even end up with an automatic as most interesting cars are headed that way. But I would choose the manual version if I could for the car that I own.
Definitely a convert - the ZF8 in my XE is a great cruiser when I want, and is deep fun using the paddles on a windy road...
Waaay better than the first auto I drove - a '92 Mustang hire car in Florida, with the 86 horse engine that wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding
A manual can be fun, even the 5-speed in my first Maxi, where I had to learn to double-declutch because all the synchros were knackered was entertaining through the Peak District, but the ZF just suits the Jag so well.
Waaay better than the first auto I drove - a '92 Mustang hire car in Florida, with the 86 horse engine that wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding
A manual can be fun, even the 5-speed in my first Maxi, where I had to learn to double-declutch because all the synchros were knackered was entertaining through the Peak District, but the ZF just suits the Jag so well.
Only auto I've driven was a 2006 RR Sport and while ok for knocking about, it wasn't hard to get it confused and take an age to change gear. This was a ZF 6 speed auto. I wouldn't say I'm a convert just due to this particular gearbox being so dim-witted but I did enjoy it for some day to day activities and sitting in traffic was less stressful
I must have driven 30-40 autos. Every single one felt like w
king with two oven gloves on. Literally any manual is preferable to me.
Maybe I haven't been in a high enough end one yet. As it stands if the manual dies completely I'll keep a few preserved until the idea of gears at all is gone.
king with two oven gloves on. Literally any manual is preferable to me. Maybe I haven't been in a high enough end one yet. As it stands if the manual dies completely I'll keep a few preserved until the idea of gears at all is gone.
We have autos for daily drivers (technically, I suppose the Tesla is a single speed, rather than an auto - same ultimate result), but manual toys.
I do enjoy a good auto with paddles but I also enjoy the art of a well executed downchange with a blip of throttle and the like.
Manuals are usually a more involving drive, but not something I want all the time.
I do enjoy a good auto with paddles but I also enjoy the art of a well executed downchange with a blip of throttle and the like.
Manuals are usually a more involving drive, but not something I want all the time.
We've got a new Tiguan in DSG petrol form. It's ok. Driven a PDK Macan and thought the same. Great for tootling around in but lacks any fun aspect of changing gear. Sure they are quick but then what's the point if you aren't doing it. I'm not out to race people so don't care about pulling away from the lights. The Macan is blistering quick actually. Paddles make for more fun but doesn't match the fun of a manual.
My daily is a manual 335i E92 and I enjoy that a lot. Don't do much city driving. Mostly A roads and some B. Fun car is a VX220 so you can imagine how much more engaging that is.
The Tiguan was great down in Padstow/Rock recently. On the lanes and going up/down hills without having to change gear whilst just generally driving was nice. More a convenience though than a must have.
For normal day to day driving and someone that isn't that fussed on the feel/involvement the modern autos are great. I can't see the wife going back tbh.
My daily is a manual 335i E92 and I enjoy that a lot. Don't do much city driving. Mostly A roads and some B. Fun car is a VX220 so you can imagine how much more engaging that is.
The Tiguan was great down in Padstow/Rock recently. On the lanes and going up/down hills without having to change gear whilst just generally driving was nice. More a convenience though than a must have.
For normal day to day driving and someone that isn't that fussed on the feel/involvement the modern autos are great. I can't see the wife going back tbh.
rfn said:
It depends.
I drive a 2014 m135i with a ZF8 which I've had for 2.5 years. It's my "yardstick" for auto gearboxes. I wouldn't have the manual, and absolutely love the gearbox/car combo. I drive it probably 80% of the time using the paddles. It's quicker and more economical on a long journey than the equivalent manual.
I don't particularly "like" the VW DSG7 - I think it's a bit too clunky. And I really didn't like the 10-speed Ford auto in a Mustang we recently hired in the US. Coupled with the 2.3T engine it made for a poor experience overall. The manual (6-speed) would've been better in this car.
This is what I heard and it revs lower than the 6-speed manual on the motorway too, so quieter and better fuel economy? To be fair the first car that I preferred with an auto to a manual was the mk5 Golf R32. I just found the manual version very clunky and difficult to drive smoothly. The 6-speed DSG was a good deal better but in the mk5 Golf GTI, the converse was true. The 6-speed auto on our family bus isn't that responsive. Is it the ZF? I'm not sure. I've driven a few vehicles with the ZF 9-speed and found 9 gears a bit too much. It usually laboured if you changed manually into 9th even at 60mph, so I'm not too sure when you would actually get to use it. It's also far too confusing swapping cogs manually when you have more than 6 speeds too.I drive a 2014 m135i with a ZF8 which I've had for 2.5 years. It's my "yardstick" for auto gearboxes. I wouldn't have the manual, and absolutely love the gearbox/car combo. I drive it probably 80% of the time using the paddles. It's quicker and more economical on a long journey than the equivalent manual.
I don't particularly "like" the VW DSG7 - I think it's a bit too clunky. And I really didn't like the 10-speed Ford auto in a Mustang we recently hired in the US. Coupled with the 2.3T engine it made for a poor experience overall. The manual (6-speed) would've been better in this car.
Edited by rfn on Friday 17th May 17:07
white_goodman said:
I can't see my current vehicle (MINI Cooper) being more fun with a manual transmission.
A couple of years ago I tried an R53 MCS auto expecting it to be the perfect city car and it wasn't. The engine and transmission seemed out of sorts with each other. The engine seemed to thrive on revs and the gearbox either smothered it or suddenly let if rev off the scale. Not sure the engine actually suited a slusher or maybe that particular box was badly calibrated - or maybe a DSG would have worked much better. And a manual would have suited it just fine. So I didn't buy it and my wife and I still pedal an old (manual) Clio round the city and don't mind gear changing at all.In the car that's used for much longer trips and therefore much more prolonged periods in stop start SE traffic a large, torquey engine + conventional auto has worked very well for m since 2003. In another recent thread I said that if I were to downsize a bit I like the combo of the VAG 280 PS engine with DSG.
And if I ended up in a diesel it would 1000% have to be auto to cover the lumpy power delivery. Really can't be arsed driving round it and an auto makes much more sense to me.
I recently had an E-Pace with the ZF9 for two months and I was expecting great things, but it really didn't do it for me. Fine in auto but there was a noticeable delay when changing gear using the paddles that was just long enough to be irritating.
The 6sp auto in my D4 suits the car perfectly, but then it has absolutely zero sporting pretensions.
The 6sp auto in my D4 suits the car perfectly, but then it has absolutely zero sporting pretensions.
white_goodman said:
Our last 3 family cars have all been automatics though. For the kind of use they get i.e. stop-start urban driving and longer motorway journeys, the automatic is completely the way to go in something with no sporting pretensions whatsoever. However, we got rid of our first automatic family car (a WJ Grand Cherokee) because the transmission broke and our current family vehicle is booked into the dealership next week because it doesn't always "creep" when you put it in Drive/Reverse.
Staggered you broke a WJ gearbox. These are absolutely bulletproof normally. The FB page has these with 300k on still going strongEdited by white_goodman on Friday 17th May 17:37
I've got a BMW M240 that's an automatic. It's the first daily driver auto I've had. I like it for every day stuff - and when I want to get a bit more involved, put it in sport and use the paddles.
I've also got a 2006 Boxster manual. I wouldn't want an auto fun weekend car - although do realise they are all heading that way.
I've also got a 2006 Boxster manual. I wouldn't want an auto fun weekend car - although do realise they are all heading that way.
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