Are you an automatic transmission convert?
Discussion
In the case above, everything you said about the Rover and BMW applies, yet the more powerful, higher revving engine with less torque lower in the rev range is still quicker in every gear - because the engine revs higher, all the gears can be lower. And if the car had a decent automatic, it would always shift to the best gear for the demand placed on it.
I've owned mainly manuals.
But I've also had a semi-auto Alfa and a fully-auto Citroen C6.
My toy (albeit in project/kit for right now) is an MX5.
My C6 was written off 18 months ago, and I'm now in a manual Alfa 159. My driving has changed in that I'm now doing a 200 mile round trip every Monday on the M11, Dartford Crossing, M25 and I really wish I had the auto-box and/or C6 back or even the semi-auto Alfa box again, it just makes motorway work, and start stop driving so much easier.
In the MX5, I really couldn't imagine that with an auto box. I 'could' maybe imagine a semi-auto flappy-paddle setup.
I recognise that a semi-auto is an auto in many ways, but I'm less concerned about clutch operation than gear choice so I'd be happy with two pedals and a shifting mechanism of some kind.
So in a nutshell, for day-to-day driving, yes I'd have an auto every time.
For fun, I'd go with manual or semi-auto
But I've also had a semi-auto Alfa and a fully-auto Citroen C6.
My toy (albeit in project/kit for right now) is an MX5.
My C6 was written off 18 months ago, and I'm now in a manual Alfa 159. My driving has changed in that I'm now doing a 200 mile round trip every Monday on the M11, Dartford Crossing, M25 and I really wish I had the auto-box and/or C6 back or even the semi-auto Alfa box again, it just makes motorway work, and start stop driving so much easier.
In the MX5, I really couldn't imagine that with an auto box. I 'could' maybe imagine a semi-auto flappy-paddle setup.
I recognise that a semi-auto is an auto in many ways, but I'm less concerned about clutch operation than gear choice so I'd be happy with two pedals and a shifting mechanism of some kind.
So in a nutshell, for day-to-day driving, yes I'd have an auto every time.
For fun, I'd go with manual or semi-auto
300bhp/ton said:
cerb4.5lee said:
From my experience I do think that an auto suits a more torquey engine. Both my X5 4.8iS and E90 330d had 369 torque so they felt pretty effortless to drive...whereas the E90 330i that I had with the same gearbox with 221 torque was a really poor match to the auto gearbox for me. A manual would have been a much better match to that engine I reckon.
In short, yes. But I think it's larger engines in general that perform better with autos.I've driven auto small engine cars and by and large they do feel underpowered compared to the manual version. Or at least less speedy.
However with a big engine Vee 8/12 type of thing, you don't tend to notice this as much.
It's all about the torque curve IMO.
Here is a power plot comparison of a Rover V8 and BMW 3.0, the BMW makes more PEAK power and revs higher. But the more grunty Rover V8 actually makes more power more of the time. With an autobox you will be spending most of the time in the mid range, the torque converter also aids this. So the less powerful engine in this instance would actually be much nicer with the autobox and perform better. Because it really would be making more power for most of the time.
Flat out the less grunty engine will still work, but that is often more hard work in an auto, as you can't just hang onto the revs with a lighter throttle as you can with a manual. As it will be wanting to change up, so the only way to exploit the best part of it's powerband will be wide open throttle, which will make it seem hard work. The torque converter will also be sapping some of this power, so will likely always feel like you are being short changed.
I remember driving the Jaguar S-Type V6 (also a 3.0 litre 241hp) at launch, back to back with a manual and an auto. I think the manual was rated 0-60mph in 6.6 sec and the auto 8.3 sec. And it felt like it too. The manual felt as though it had 50hp more.
300 what you describe there certainly mirrors how I felt about it.
300bhp/ton said:
Right so you are meaning sluggish cars with an auto transmission rather than sluggish response or gear change from the automatic box. Rather a subtle but significantly different thing.
I think what you have encountered is just smaller European engines with a lack of grunt.
Less ratios and a less than ideal final drive coupled with some power sapped from a torque converter will indeed blunt performance on cars like those. Although the gearboxes should still perform.
I can actually do this comparison. I currently own two Camaro z28’s. Almost identical, same year, same engine. One is a 4 speed auto with a 2.73:1 final drive. The other is a 6 speed manual with a 3.42:1 final drive.
There is literally nothing between them performance wise. On paper the 6 speed has the edge. But in reality the auto is easier to deploy and more consistent at building speed.
The 4 speed is also very responsive and shifts way quicker than I can with the manual.
The manual is a lot more fun however. And even is the auto had 6 or 8 gears it really wouldn’t make it anymore fun and I doubt it would significantly impact performance either. It would allow for arguably better mpg and emissions. Which is likely the biggest reason why we see more gear ratios on autos these days.
That has some truth in the case of the Polo and lower-powered A-Class but I didn't have an issue with the manual equivalents and the same applies to the A210 Evo that I drove, which was the most powerful A-Class at the time (around 140bhp if I recall). You disregarded the Sebring though. That was a car that I borrowed and was a lot better than I expected an early 2000s American car to be. It was fairly quick, comfortable, handled OK etc and this was only a few years ago. That being said, I did a rolling drag race with another friend in a 2014 Corolla with a CVT transmission (1.8 4-cylinder, around 130bhp vs. a 2.7 V6 with around 200bhp), fully expecting to win and the Corolla just disappeared off into the distance. There was a good 2 second lag in the Sebring "kicking down" when I floored it and by that time, the Corolla already had a few car lengths on me. I'm still not a huge fan of CVTs due to the refinement and the holding of revs, which still seems a little unnatural to me but of the newish ones that I have driven, I can't really fault the performance that they can extract from in many cases, relatively low powered cars!I think what you have encountered is just smaller European engines with a lack of grunt.
Less ratios and a less than ideal final drive coupled with some power sapped from a torque converter will indeed blunt performance on cars like those. Although the gearboxes should still perform.
I can actually do this comparison. I currently own two Camaro z28’s. Almost identical, same year, same engine. One is a 4 speed auto with a 2.73:1 final drive. The other is a 6 speed manual with a 3.42:1 final drive.
There is literally nothing between them performance wise. On paper the 6 speed has the edge. But in reality the auto is easier to deploy and more consistent at building speed.
The 4 speed is also very responsive and shifts way quicker than I can with the manual.
The manual is a lot more fun however. And even is the auto had 6 or 8 gears it really wouldn’t make it anymore fun and I doubt it would significantly impact performance either. It would allow for arguably better mpg and emissions. Which is likely the biggest reason why we see more gear ratios on autos these days.
This is probably my biggest issue with automatic transmissions and with the exception of the two that I mentioned (6-speed DSG combined with a diesel engine and the ZF 8-speed in the Challenger), all of the other ones that I have driven seem to have this issue. Just driving around normally, they are fine but when you need it to kick down for a brisk overtake, it either kicks down too far and unsettles the car or not far enough/there's a time delay and doesn't give you the acceleration that you need. In my manual WRX, I just had to drop it into 3rd and instant power and for this reason, it is probably the most confident overtaker that I have owned. My old C250TD Estate (5-speed auto I think) lacked urgency for overtaking, as does my relatively modern 6-speed in my current family vehicle. A lot of "normal", non-sporting models with automatic transmissions do in my experience, as they are mapped to change up early for fuel economy reasons I assume and hence don't feel as lively as the power/torque figures would suggest. A Fiesta Ecoboost auto that I hired recently was particularly bad and I would have thought a 100bhp turbo in a Fiesta would have been fairly "nippy". I'm sure that the manual version would have been great. I'm fairly confident that the modern automatic equivalent of my C-Class would be more responsive than my old 5-speed though.
Pica-Pica said:
Car-Matt said:
cerb4.5lee said:
300 what you describe there certainly mirrors how I felt about it.
Because the gruntier engine has been geared to take advantage of its lower grunt and thicker curves :-)
As per my observation under the 50K sports car topic .....
I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
WJNB said:
As per my observation under the 50K sports car topic .....
I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
Do WRC cars still have a clutch these days?I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
WJNB said:
As per my observation under the 50K sports car topic .....
I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
Am I the only person here who can reach their slide rule when they are sat at their PC? I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
WJNB said:
As per my observation under the 50K sports car topic .....
I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
This might come as a shock to you, but some people like different things to you. I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
WJNB said:
As per my observation under the 50K sports car topic .....
I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
Ever played a musical instrument? Or even a computer game?I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
A machine could almost certainly do it better, therefore, you're not allowed to derive enjoyment from it?
That's a bit of a sad outlook.
I'm not a convert to auto boxes but I am a convert to no box at all, with an electric motor. To me that made the internal combustion engine and its reliance on a gearbox to perform its task feel obsolete. Pity the energy storage isn't yet completely practical, but I'm sold on electric power in a car.
Staying on topic, with autoboxes from the 1980s / 1990s, which I have plenty of experience driving, I'd have chosen a manual every time, for both the performance advantage and also the auto's inability to choose the gear I want when I want it.
I've not driven many single plate semi auto boxes either, but my experience of those would also steer me towards the manual option.
Modern autos are a lot better and depends on the car. The XE had the ZF8. I didn't like the box and would have preferred a manual. It was too lazy in any mode except sport, where it was too hyper. It had paddles but then to me it had 2 gears too many. For zipping down a back road the paddles were OK but for town driving it was just never suited the car. Gearbox was too lethargic in auto, or too busy in manual. Also in manual mode, annoyingly, if you floored the throttle the car would still change down a gear if it could. Then it would be right up against the limiter but wouldn't change up again, because it's in manual mode!
Same box in the Giulia Veloce feels totally different. Didn't feel like too many gears. Didn't feel lazy in auto mode. When I wanted to accelerate, it chose a good gear straight away or stayed in the gear I had chosen. Brilliant. I even liked the kick in the back it gives when you change gears in its sports setting.
I don't miss a manual. A good manual does add some sensory pleasure, an average one for me is just a tool and I'd happily swap gears with buttons instead as long as I have full control over what gear I'm in. It doesn't make or break the car for me unless the gearbox, whatever type it is, is awful. Even in the XE the auto wasn't enough to ruin the car for me. I still loved it.
Staying on topic, with autoboxes from the 1980s / 1990s, which I have plenty of experience driving, I'd have chosen a manual every time, for both the performance advantage and also the auto's inability to choose the gear I want when I want it.
I've not driven many single plate semi auto boxes either, but my experience of those would also steer me towards the manual option.
Modern autos are a lot better and depends on the car. The XE had the ZF8. I didn't like the box and would have preferred a manual. It was too lazy in any mode except sport, where it was too hyper. It had paddles but then to me it had 2 gears too many. For zipping down a back road the paddles were OK but for town driving it was just never suited the car. Gearbox was too lethargic in auto, or too busy in manual. Also in manual mode, annoyingly, if you floored the throttle the car would still change down a gear if it could. Then it would be right up against the limiter but wouldn't change up again, because it's in manual mode!
Same box in the Giulia Veloce feels totally different. Didn't feel like too many gears. Didn't feel lazy in auto mode. When I wanted to accelerate, it chose a good gear straight away or stayed in the gear I had chosen. Brilliant. I even liked the kick in the back it gives when you change gears in its sports setting.
I don't miss a manual. A good manual does add some sensory pleasure, an average one for me is just a tool and I'd happily swap gears with buttons instead as long as I have full control over what gear I'm in. It doesn't make or break the car for me unless the gearbox, whatever type it is, is awful. Even in the XE the auto wasn't enough to ruin the car for me. I still loved it.
Back to the original question... What made me go auto was a Caterham 7. As nothing else would ever compare, once I'd made up my mind to sell it and move on, auto was the obvious choice.
I haven't once regretted it in the 13 years that have since elapsed.
Of course, I have a decently-powerful auto that is the polar opposite of the Caterham in its entire context which reflects my current interest. Once I'd done countless trackdays and experienced touring with friends in similar small sports cars, I turned to big trucks for putting as much kit and people in as I could for long distance holidays. Auto was the way to go.
I haven't once regretted it in the 13 years that have since elapsed.
Of course, I have a decently-powerful auto that is the polar opposite of the Caterham in its entire context which reflects my current interest. Once I'd done countless trackdays and experienced touring with friends in similar small sports cars, I turned to big trucks for putting as much kit and people in as I could for long distance holidays. Auto was the way to go.
There's a reasonable difference between driving a wheezy supermini with a strangulating auto and something with decent power reserves that compliments the self-shifter.
Driving the former you'd swear autos are hateful things that make progress feel like your car is straining for a number 2, whereas the latter tends to feel like the whole process is just silky forward motion, with rapidity only a toe flex away.
Driving the former you'd swear autos are hateful things that make progress feel like your car is straining for a number 2, whereas the latter tends to feel like the whole process is just silky forward motion, with rapidity only a toe flex away.
WJNB said:
As per my observation under the 50K sports car topic .....
I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
In a fun car I’d never take an auto. In the commuting one, of course. I’m sure a modern DSG is faster, more efficient etc, but so is a Tesla compared to a classic Ferrari. Some things can’t be defined by ‘better’. I fail to understand the male pre-occupation with playing with a knob in order to drive. Something related to insecurity perhaps or a fear of not being masterly & in control?
Grown-ups in their F1 racing cars have auto boxes do they not? Or don't they know as much about driving as some Phers?
There is no way an auto box underperforms what the human hand can do.
In any case the manual gearbox is as old as the car itself so how uncool is that?
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