RE: 2019 Toyota Supra review: PH Video!
Discussion
There are lots of modern cars that use engines from other manufacturers; Pagani, Aston Martin, Lotus, Lamborghini, to name a few. Remember, even the GT86 has an engine originally developed by another manufacturer...
The Supra needed to be a straight six; an engine Toyota didn't already have in its arsenal of modern emissions compliant lineup of engines. For a relatively low volume sportscar (compared to higher volume models) to remain competitive in today's challenging global markets, this manufacturer needed to look at such alternatives, to justify the investment.
This isn't just a BMW with Toyota styling by any stretch, it's a lot more Toyota developed than that. It's meant to be a car that has the capacity for improvement. Toyota even deliberately designed-in features to help make it attractive for modification, such as strengthening the hatch, ready to bolt on a GT wing rigidly as one example. I for one lament that they didn't make it as pretty as the concept car, but no doubt Japan's many after-market tuners will see this as but one opportunity...
340 bhp is nothing to be sniffed at; within a short period, we're likely to see examples making figures approaching twice that.
As for a manual box, I suspect if we all clamour for one, Toyota will produce. After all, their current CEO, Akio Toyoda is a deeply engrained car enthusiast.
After 17 years, the likely truth is had Toyota not seriously considered the BMW designed engine, this would have meant having no new Supra at all. I suspect the A90 Supra will prove to be a very good base platform for modifications could in some part help revive the tuner's market.
As a JDM enthusiast, this is a new exciting sports car that can help revive interest back in tunable Japanese cars. This is a good thing.
The Supra needed to be a straight six; an engine Toyota didn't already have in its arsenal of modern emissions compliant lineup of engines. For a relatively low volume sportscar (compared to higher volume models) to remain competitive in today's challenging global markets, this manufacturer needed to look at such alternatives, to justify the investment.
This isn't just a BMW with Toyota styling by any stretch, it's a lot more Toyota developed than that. It's meant to be a car that has the capacity for improvement. Toyota even deliberately designed-in features to help make it attractive for modification, such as strengthening the hatch, ready to bolt on a GT wing rigidly as one example. I for one lament that they didn't make it as pretty as the concept car, but no doubt Japan's many after-market tuners will see this as but one opportunity...
340 bhp is nothing to be sniffed at; within a short period, we're likely to see examples making figures approaching twice that.
As for a manual box, I suspect if we all clamour for one, Toyota will produce. After all, their current CEO, Akio Toyoda is a deeply engrained car enthusiast.
After 17 years, the likely truth is had Toyota not seriously considered the BMW designed engine, this would have meant having no new Supra at all. I suspect the A90 Supra will prove to be a very good base platform for modifications could in some part help revive the tuner's market.
As a JDM enthusiast, this is a new exciting sports car that can help revive interest back in tunable Japanese cars. This is a good thing.
Scootersp said:
This sort of thing is subjective and personal, I would say that both Toyota and BMW aren't particularly known for unreliability, Toyota/Lexus don't seem to have many known issues from the 90's on that I can think of off the top of my head (early 1.8 VVti's in Avensis/Mr2's burnt loads of oil, 2.2 diesel head gasket issues maybe?)
Anecdotally, I do know of a Mkiv Supra that got to over 300K on the original (unopened) Engine, gearbox and turbo's.
I've heard that there is a difference in culture between the product testing that German and Japanese manufacturers do. Perhaps this has changed? However I've owned Three Japanese cars from different eras which did over 100k miles. Little things went wrong, electric window motors, engine electrical parts, gas struts, seals things like that. They weren't undrivable, but they weren't still nice to drive and use after that time, even when looked after. I've had a couple of high miler BMW's and they just... worked. Electric windows, engines, suspension, infotainment, you name it it works. The worst that has happened on my 130k mile 1 series is the rear wiper seized which I think will be an easy fix and I think it's down to poor packaging rather than an unreliable part. The stuff that went wrong on the Jap cars was rarely an easy fix.Anecdotally, I do know of a Mkiv Supra that got to over 300K on the original (unopened) Engine, gearbox and turbo's.
Admittedly this is anecdotal (as everything pretty much is on the internet) but it does have a larger sample size than most internet anecdotes. As above I heard that the Japanese test their cars (by and large) to 160k Kilometers and not much further whereas the Germans test them to 300k+ As I said, I'm not sure if this is true any more (or ever really was, at least exactly like this) but I do have anecdotal evidence to back it up.
Even so, a combination of German interior, infotainment, electricals, drivetrain with Japanese bodywork, innovation and production techniques should result in a decent car. Not like the Japanese designed italian manufactured Datsun Alfa thing which was terrible...
All the more complicated by different standards of the same manufacturer over different era's.
Also the odd design flaw, so buy the wrong BMW and you might have had a timing chain issue when all the others as you say have been rock solid.
I reckon it ebbs and flows depending on the finance vs engineers battle, streamlining with no consequences vs cost cutting with catastrophic (engine wise) ones.
As I say neither bad for reliability though.
Also the odd design flaw, so buy the wrong BMW and you might have had a timing chain issue when all the others as you say have been rock solid.
I reckon it ebbs and flows depending on the finance vs engineers battle, streamlining with no consequences vs cost cutting with catastrophic (engine wise) ones.
As I say neither bad for reliability though.
Just to give my opinion on a few points.
Looks:
Great from some angles, awful from others!
Auto only:
This put me off originally but I have a few paddle/auto cars and when I thought about it, I rarely use the paddles on the road and in the traffic clogged roads of the UK I'm often very glad to be able to stick it in 'D' and relax.
Power:
335hp is 'OK' these days. It's inline with sports cars in this price bracket. However, someone tested one of the press cars on a dyno over in the states and it made 339hp and 427lb-ft at the wheels. So Toyota may have been a bit conservative with their figures.
BMW interior:
I've got a couple of recent Toyotas and having a Toyota interior/infortainment would have been a deal breaker for me.
BMW engine:
Toyota wouldn't risk damaging their reputation with a drivetrain they thought would be unreliable.
'MKiv was awesome, blah, blah, blah':
No, it wasn't. It was OK. After it had a body kit and an extra 100hp it was awesome. Add 100hp and a bodykit to the new Supra and it will be fantastic. An exhaust and a remap will see huge gains.
Price:
It's in line with it's competitors (Cayman, etc) and, as mentioned, below the last Supra accounting for inflation.
Would I buy one:
I've got one on order. I was hoping for the reviewers to be blown away but they haven't been. However, more criticisms seem to be BMW interior, no manual, etc which, as mentioned above, aren't too much of a concern. Bottom line is, I'm still unsure if I'll go ahead with the purchase or not.
Looks:
Great from some angles, awful from others!
Auto only:
This put me off originally but I have a few paddle/auto cars and when I thought about it, I rarely use the paddles on the road and in the traffic clogged roads of the UK I'm often very glad to be able to stick it in 'D' and relax.
Power:
335hp is 'OK' these days. It's inline with sports cars in this price bracket. However, someone tested one of the press cars on a dyno over in the states and it made 339hp and 427lb-ft at the wheels. So Toyota may have been a bit conservative with their figures.
BMW interior:
I've got a couple of recent Toyotas and having a Toyota interior/infortainment would have been a deal breaker for me.
BMW engine:
Toyota wouldn't risk damaging their reputation with a drivetrain they thought would be unreliable.
'MKiv was awesome, blah, blah, blah':
No, it wasn't. It was OK. After it had a body kit and an extra 100hp it was awesome. Add 100hp and a bodykit to the new Supra and it will be fantastic. An exhaust and a remap will see huge gains.
Price:
It's in line with it's competitors (Cayman, etc) and, as mentioned, below the last Supra accounting for inflation.
Would I buy one:
I've got one on order. I was hoping for the reviewers to be blown away but they haven't been. However, more criticisms seem to be BMW interior, no manual, etc which, as mentioned above, aren't too much of a concern. Bottom line is, I'm still unsure if I'll go ahead with the purchase or not.
Duncan Lang said:
I've got one on order. I was hoping for the reviewers to be blown away but they haven't been. However, more criticisms seem to be BMW interior, no manual, etc which, as mentioned above, aren't too much of a concern. Bottom line is, I'm still unsure if I'll go ahead with the purchase or not.
i suspect you'll be quite happy.cars have gotten very good and the expectation of a sports car has become too high, which i think is due to diminishing returns. ie 25k gets you a very good car nowadays, full of 100 yrs of automotive development. then a little tinkering on a hatch yields great returns. a 50k sports car will be better but not twice as good.
one reason why the A110 was so well received is weight. it was a great car built around being light, and that in itself enables so much fun & ability.
PH is an odd place. journos who can drive have given it 8+/10
CABC said:
i suspect you'll be quite happy.
cars have gotten very good and the expectation of a sports car has become too high, which i think is due to diminishing returns. ie 25k gets you a very good car nowadays, full of 100 yrs of automotive development. then a little tinkering on a hatch yields great returns. a 50k sports car will be better but not twice as good.
one reason why the A110 was so well received is weight. it was a great car built around being light, and that in itself enables so much fun & ability.
PH is an odd place. journos who can drive have given it 8+/10
I think you're right. It's also worth remembering the cars that journalist get to drive some incredible machinery. I'm sure it's easy to be critical when you've experienced the best of the best and something comes up a little worse. To us mere mortals, it would still blow us away.cars have gotten very good and the expectation of a sports car has become too high, which i think is due to diminishing returns. ie 25k gets you a very good car nowadays, full of 100 yrs of automotive development. then a little tinkering on a hatch yields great returns. a 50k sports car will be better but not twice as good.
one reason why the A110 was so well received is weight. it was a great car built around being light, and that in itself enables so much fun & ability.
PH is an odd place. journos who can drive have given it 8+/10
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