RE: The Brave Pill: Porsche 911 (996)
Discussion
Fittster said:
How much will Hartech charge to rebuild the engine?
And the answer appears to be that there isn't going to be much change from 10K for a full rebuild: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Could I spend 10K on a car I bought for 12K?
You could go for the next trouble proof 911 which is... 997.2. well in the IMS department anyway , they still score bore. 35,40k ?And the answer appears to be that there isn't going to be much change from 10K for a full rebuild: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Could I spend 10K on a car I bought for 12K?
Edited by Fittster on Saturday 18th May 08:04
I bought one of the "cheapest" 996s two years ago, with 140k on it. Once it grenades itself, I'll have a full hartech rebuild and have a 20k bombproof 911. Choices....
Edited by cvega on Saturday 18th May 12:44
Edited by cvega on Saturday 18th May 12:44
Engelberger said:
What Ferrari goes 100k without needing a rebuild or some serious work? In fact what other sports car could you get that will in 90% of cases sail through the 100K mark with not much more than consumables as the cost.
Sports cars that are much more lilkely to see 100K without an engine rebuild than a 996:997.2
Nissan GTR
Honda NSX
Corvettte
Jaguar XK
Toyota Supra
Audi R8
What's the Aston V8 vantage like?
The only sports cars with a worse reputation for engine reliability is a TVR with a S6.
I had a 20 year old 996 C4S (at the time. More like 26 years old now) - such a beautiful car in black ( much prefer the fat ass C4S). 70k miles, £20,500 at the time.
A superb drive, very capable, astonishing in the wet, but marred by the slushmatic semi auto box, and all felt a little clinical. Lacking in character.
Did lots of reasearch and it seems the IMS/RMS thing has been very much over-hyped.
Only thing that alarmed me was the manifold bolts were all badly corroded and would require a but of work to remove.
Sold for £1k less 16 months later.
Great experience. Great car
You can still get them under 70k miles for under £23k
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Only a very quick search.
A superb drive, very capable, astonishing in the wet, but marred by the slushmatic semi auto box, and all felt a little clinical. Lacking in character.
Did lots of reasearch and it seems the IMS/RMS thing has been very much over-hyped.
Only thing that alarmed me was the manifold bolts were all badly corroded and would require a but of work to remove.
Sold for £1k less 16 months later.
Great experience. Great car
You can still get them under 70k miles for under £23k
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Only a very quick search.
Oakman said:
The bulk of the cost involved in IMS bearing replacement is getting at it. IE. The labour charges for dropping the engine gearbox assembly, doing RMS is also part of it. You check and do the clutch as part of the IMS job as everything is accessible then.
A fools errand not to change the IMS bearing when you’ve done all the labour involved to get at the RMS and clutch.
But if you are doing a like for like replacement aren't you just kicking the can down the road? My understanding was the Hartech rebuild is desirable because they don't simply replace Porsche OEM parts with more OEM parts, they replace with re-engineered components. A fools errand not to change the IMS bearing when you’ve done all the labour involved to get at the RMS and clutch.
Maybe its just me, but a 300bhp car (of which, how many of those horses remain...), which is getting quite old now, with the potential to throw up big bills for repair, isn't appealing in the slightest.
For those saying "yeah, but what would you get instead", to me the answer is simple. Any decent rally car will be just as quick if not quicker, more likely lower mileage, and cost you less both in the short and long run.
For those saying "yeah, but what would you get instead", to me the answer is simple. Any decent rally car will be just as quick if not quicker, more likely lower mileage, and cost you less both in the short and long run.
kambites said:
I'm probably quite unusual in this, but the 996 is my favourite 911. Modern enough to be usable but old enough to still be reasonably analogue and feelsome to drive. If I ever needed a 2+2 it'd be high on my shortlist.
Make that another. Not really a Porsche fan at all but would love a 996 Turbo/GT2/3 for the reasons you mentioned. big_rob_sydney said:
Maybe its just me, but a 300bhp car (of which, how many of those horses remain...), which is getting quite old now, with the potential to throw up big bills for repair, isn't appealing in the slightest.
For those saying "yeah, but what would you get instead", to me the answer is simple. Any decent rally car will be just as quick if not quicker, more likely lower mileage, and cost you less both in the short and long run.
Speaking from experience the more modern ‘better’ cars are much more likely to throw up ‘big’ bills and you need to push them harder to get the same enjoyment. A little bit of maintenance often is the key. A decent multi cylinder NA engine outweighs the modern 4 cylinder turbos for a lot of people. I think we are lucky in that 15 year old cars now are relatively robust. For those saying "yeah, but what would you get instead", to me the answer is simple. Any decent rally car will be just as quick if not quicker, more likely lower mileage, and cost you less both in the short and long run.
Like others here, the appeal for me is that you can really use these. A friend of mine has a lovely 964 C4 which he bought for around £15k about 10 years ago and dare not drive now for fear of putting on the miles and losing value, and even trailers it to its mot. Surely the point of cars are to be driven!
I bough an early Boxster S in 2011 with about 100k on the clock for under £6k, did all the big jobs immediately and just enjoyed it, and ended up making some money on it, probably the only car I ever did as I buy for enjoyment, capability and usability above all else, and rarely consider depreciation.
Although I would go with the general consensus
that they're the least attractive 911, these are becoming less ugly as time goes by, to me at least, I strongly disliked them when they were new, and very tempting as they're now within my 2nd car budget of about £15-20k.
Coming from a BMW M background where around the 100k mile mark you just get the rod bearings done straight away and relax, (less than £1k inc. VAT for the straight 6 S54 from a good specialist) of course you're going to have things needing replacing on any performance car of this mileage whatever it is, I dont really get what all the fuss is about, as this is not a unique situation in the second hand performance car market.
As others have said you get the big preventative jobs done immediately, budget £2k a year for maintenance and repairs and just drive it! As long as you factor in the work to the buying price, and do your research surely it cant be as scary as many suggest to own, this is the most accessible and useable 911, for those on a budget like me anyway.
Just wish I could afford a Turbo!
I bough an early Boxster S in 2011 with about 100k on the clock for under £6k, did all the big jobs immediately and just enjoyed it, and ended up making some money on it, probably the only car I ever did as I buy for enjoyment, capability and usability above all else, and rarely consider depreciation.
Although I would go with the general consensus
that they're the least attractive 911, these are becoming less ugly as time goes by, to me at least, I strongly disliked them when they were new, and very tempting as they're now within my 2nd car budget of about £15-20k.
Coming from a BMW M background where around the 100k mile mark you just get the rod bearings done straight away and relax, (less than £1k inc. VAT for the straight 6 S54 from a good specialist) of course you're going to have things needing replacing on any performance car of this mileage whatever it is, I dont really get what all the fuss is about, as this is not a unique situation in the second hand performance car market.
As others have said you get the big preventative jobs done immediately, budget £2k a year for maintenance and repairs and just drive it! As long as you factor in the work to the buying price, and do your research surely it cant be as scary as many suggest to own, this is the most accessible and useable 911, for those on a budget like me anyway.
Just wish I could afford a Turbo!
big_rob_sydney said:
Maybe its just me, but a 300bhp car (of which, how many of those horses remain...), which is getting quite old now, with the potential to throw up big bills for repair, isn't appealing in the slightest.
For those saying "yeah, but what would you get instead", to me the answer is simple. Any decent rally car will be just as quick if not quicker, more likely lower mileage, and cost you less both in the short and long run.
Excellent logic Rob, but I guess it comes down to what you actually want. For those saying "yeah, but what would you get instead", to me the answer is simple. Any decent rally car will be just as quick if not quicker, more likely lower mileage, and cost you less both in the short and long run.
I would love this car. I have no desire at all to own a "decent rally car".
yonex said:
Speaking from experience the more modern ‘better’ cars are much more likely to throw up ‘big’ bills and you need to push them harder to get the same enjoyment. A little bit of maintenance often is the key. A decent multi cylinder NA engine outweighs the modern 4 cylinder turbos for a lot of people. I think we are lucky in that 15 year old cars now are relatively robust.
Yet you sing the praises of the 320d.How odd.
NAnut said:
L
Coming from a BMW M background where around the 100k mile mark you just get the rod bearings done straight away and relax, (less than £1k inc. VAT for the straight 6 S54 from a good specialist) of course you're going to have things needing replacing on any performance car of this mileage whatever it is, I dont really get what all the fuss is about, as this is not a unique situation in the second hand performance car market.
As others have said you get the big preventative jobs done immediately, budget £2k a year for maintenance and repairs and just drive it! As long as you factor in the work to the buying price, and do your research surely it cant be as scary as many suggest to own, this is the most accessible and useable 911, for those on a budget like me anyway.
The more I think about it the less I'm willing to accept the argument that you should an expensive rebuild once a performance engine reaches 100K. There seem to be plenty of examples that don't (I'm thinking of V8s from the states and 6 cylinders from Japan). Does the Mezger engine require a rebuild at 100K?Coming from a BMW M background where around the 100k mile mark you just get the rod bearings done straight away and relax, (less than £1k inc. VAT for the straight 6 S54 from a good specialist) of course you're going to have things needing replacing on any performance car of this mileage whatever it is, I dont really get what all the fuss is about, as this is not a unique situation in the second hand performance car market.
As others have said you get the big preventative jobs done immediately, budget £2k a year for maintenance and repairs and just drive it! As long as you factor in the work to the buying price, and do your research surely it cant be as scary as many suggest to own, this is the most accessible and useable 911, for those on a budget like me anyway.
Can preventative maintenance really prevent IMS and RMS issues?
Had my 2000 manual coupe 11 years. Bought on 57k, now on 172k. Lives outside and used as a daily in all weathers. Never had any engine issues, and clean bored when checked last year.
Mine has a few mods now - Konis, H&R -30 springs, H&R arbs, all other suspension bits replaced, X74 alignment, RSS engine mounts, cup wheel, BMC filter and helmholtz bypass, full exhaust, rear wiper delete, continental DAB head unit and Alpine speaker upgrade.
Probably worth no more than £10k, but I can’t think of anything else that I could replace it with that would be as good an all rounder unless I spent a load more money.
Forget the IMS... it’s a non issue in cars that get driven regularly... Indy looked at mine when I had the RMS replaced last year. Seal was long gone, but looked in decent nick. More risk changing it than just leaving it where it is.
Clutches last forever - mine has its 1st replacement at 120k. Used to eat rear tyres in 6-8k, but I have PS4’s now and they are brilliant - grip well and last well.
Mine has a small rust bubble in the NS front arch I’ll get fixed this summer, but no other signs.
I budget c.£2k/yr for maintenance.
Mine has a few mods now - Konis, H&R -30 springs, H&R arbs, all other suspension bits replaced, X74 alignment, RSS engine mounts, cup wheel, BMC filter and helmholtz bypass, full exhaust, rear wiper delete, continental DAB head unit and Alpine speaker upgrade.
Probably worth no more than £10k, but I can’t think of anything else that I could replace it with that would be as good an all rounder unless I spent a load more money.
Forget the IMS... it’s a non issue in cars that get driven regularly... Indy looked at mine when I had the RMS replaced last year. Seal was long gone, but looked in decent nick. More risk changing it than just leaving it where it is.
Clutches last forever - mine has its 1st replacement at 120k. Used to eat rear tyres in 6-8k, but I have PS4’s now and they are brilliant - grip well and last well.
Mine has a small rust bubble in the NS front arch I’ll get fixed this summer, but no other signs.
I budget c.£2k/yr for maintenance.
Edited by Chris Stott on Saturday 18th May 18:07
The specialists who say the engine horror stories are overblown must be sales specialists. They certainly aren’t the ones who fix them. I know so many people who’ve had problems, but I guess I’ve just met the small percentage. My 987 boxster engine went at 40k as well. If these were £5k cars I’d take the risk, but at this kind of money no way.
SmartVenom said:
The specialists who say the engine horror stories are overblown must be sales specialists. They certainly aren’t the ones who fix them. I know so many people who’ve had problems, but I guess I’ve just met the small percentage. My 987 boxster engine went at 40k as well. If these were £5k cars I’d take the risk, but at this kind of money no way.
The class action in the states came to the conlusion that single figure % failures of IMS, yet to read some of the rubbish on the internet you'd end up thinking it was nearer 100%. For all those that have failed, there are many, many more that haven't, you just rarely hear about those.
Nearly 10yrs for me, be gutting if it does go pop but I'll get it fixed & enjoy for another 10+ years.
And the rally car argument, somewhat missing the point me thinks.
cvega said:
Fittster said:
How much will Hartech charge to rebuild the engine?
And the answer appears to be that there isn't going to be much change from 10K for a full rebuild: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Could I spend 10K on a car I bought for 12K?
You could go for the next trouble proof 911 which is... 997.2. well in the IMS department anyway , they still score bore. 35,40k ?And the answer appears to be that there isn't going to be much change from 10K for a full rebuild: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Could I spend 10K on a car I bought for 12K?
Edited by Fittster on Saturday 18th May 08:04
I bought one of the "cheapest" 996s two years ago, with 140k on it. Once it grenades itself, I'll have a full hartech rebuild and have a 20k bombproof 911. Choices....
Edited by cvega on Saturday 18th May 12:44
Edited by cvega on Saturday 18th May 12:44
I bought a £9k 996 with 155k miles on and an LN engineering IMS bearing in it. It’s a great fun weekend car. I’ve just done routine servicing and some front suspension work, this winter it’ll get the rear suspension sorted and discs and pads all round.
Similar to you. If it goes pop I’ll get a full rebuild with provenance and turn it into a £20k car. It’ll still have not lost me anything!
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