RE: Gordon Murray Automotive previews F1 successor
Discussion
suffolk009 said:
I'm not sure that the exhaust note owes anything to the MGB.
I think the wheels on my Eunos are effectively 7 spoke Miniltes with centre-caps to cover the wheel nuts.
The design detail that everybody overlooks on the MX5 mk1 is that the front wheel arches are pure Marcos.
It actually was. The exhaust engineers tuned it to sound as much like an MGB as they could. It was in the launch hyperbole I think the wheels on my Eunos are effectively 7 spoke Miniltes with centre-caps to cover the wheel nuts.
The design detail that everybody overlooks on the MX5 mk1 is that the front wheel arches are pure Marcos.
GetCarter said:
Seeing him tomorrow, I'll pass it on.
Feels a bit silly, but if you could pass on a "thank you" for the mega book he just published? Would be very much appreciated. Received my copy of "One Formula" book a couple of days ago and it is *brilliant*. Exceeded my (rather high) expectations. Not inexpensive, but the definition of "preiswert"
. Enjoying it a lot!RobM77 said:
This is what I love about Gordon Murray: he's a legendary F1 designer who worked at the cutting edge and understands the technology inside out, but in his road car projects he's not chasing performance as his primary goal and he's not chained to that cutting edge.
Should perhaps have quoted you in full since I 110% agree 
. But just to comment on two bits...I think the not "chasing performance" aspect is very important. Would be so much easier to just go for numbers and claim success. But that is lazy and does not solve the real problem of making a good (sports) car.
Which is certrainly a lot more complicated, requires an inner "compass" / "design philosophy" plus the cleverness to actually solve the engineering puzzles that result from the goal setting.
Sounds bleeding obvious, but why so few interesting cars out there? Thinking about how many engineers actually have the skills + experience + *interest* to actually pull this off. Now how many of those are in a position to put anything into practice?
Last bit unfortunately removes most of the talent at major makers from the picture... And as an outsider I find it remarkable that the "good stuff" is more often than not from the UK. Lotus, BAC, Ginetta, Noble, Ariel... Why? No idea. In contrast, absolutely nothing in Italy, France or Germany... The few cool "indy" makers are long gone...
I'm really not one for persona cult or blind admiration, but looking at Murray's own designs or his personal car collection -- it all feels simply *right* to me.
Took me a long time to connect the dots though -- realy did not notice for ages it's always the same guy behind my favourite F1 cars, the mega road car, the Rocket, then discovering his work on efficient transport, the Ox, his personal car collection (which would pretty much what I'd buy had I the funds) down to him driving a Smart Roadster and now getiing an Alpine...
RobM77 said:
I'll never afford one of his cars, or probably even drive one, but it's just lovely to know there's someone making cars with his sort of vision.
Again fully agree. But also really annoys me. How much crowdfunding would we need to get together for a crack at getting the T43 on the road ? I'm totally conviced there is a market for this. Just needs to be done right. The Renault boys are 75% there with the A110 and it works for them...
I can understand some people wanting faster cars all the time, but their ubiquity is puzzling. In my other keen interests of running and windsurfing, speed demons are actually in a minority; respectively the more popular disciplines are fun trail runs where nobody can judge your pace, and ‘freeride’, which emphasises just larking about basically. The only thing I can think of with cars is that people like us seem more often that not happy to only enjoy driving at weekends, and then drive a s
tty front wheel drive box from day to day. Like those guys, I also have a fun car for weekends (a V8 race car running on carbs, sub tonne kerbweight etc; it replaces a full downforce single seater that I sold in April), but Mon-Fri I drive a FE/RWD car with manual box and expensive suspension tuned for handling; it’s slow, but drives beautifully. I don’t understand why people who love driving are so happy driving wobbly boxes day to day; it would drive me crazy; and equally why people prioritise performance so much when most normal cars feel over tyred and engined for a B road, let alone a performance car. It’s therefore a puzzle to me why the 911R (as a reaction to the GT3) isn’t more common. Why don’t BMW, Mercedes or when Renault, Peugeot etc have just one car I’m their vast range that forgets about power and focuses on driving pleasure? The GT86 springs to mind, but it’s all on its own and even then it’s got DBW throttle, power steering, servio brakes etc.Kolbenkopp said:
GetCarter said:
Seeing him tomorrow, I'll pass it on.
Feels a bit silly, but if you could pass on a "thank you" for the mega book he just published? Would be very much appreciated. Received my copy of "One Formula" book a couple of days ago and it is *brilliant*. Exceeded my (rather high) expectations. Not inexpensive, but the definition of "preiswert"
. Enjoying it a lot!anonymous said:
[redacted]
Absolutely spot on moosey. I’d also add that a great number of the people buying these cars aren’t ‘petrolheads’ and buy them for the posing factor. Of course there are exceptions, but with many it’s just down to looking good in the latest thing. I’ve seen many an Instsgram ‘star’ whose garage has every latest thing but they barely know the spec of the cars. ‘Tis just the way of the world now.
Luckily I think His Murrayness will be able to be more selective with who buys them.
Equus said:
GetCarter said:
Not quite sure what your point is.
Quite simply, as others have said, there's really not that much novelty there. ... and that therefore there isn't any revolution waiting to happen, after all.
GetCarter said:
What's not to like?
The hype.I’m entirely comfortable that what he offers has - and can add - value. Sure you can copy it, but then you have to work these things out from scratch.
My question was only whether there was an addressable market for the tech. I’m glad if there is.
skwdenyer said:
....Sure you can copy it, but then you have to work these things out from scratch.
But without protection of the IP (indeed, unfortunately, even with it, where the Chinese are concerned), all that would happen is that companies will pay as little as they can for the information they need to get it going, then walk away and produce it with far eastern labour.And if it did ever take off, then the know-how required will spread very quickly.
I simply don't share your view that there is an addressable market for the tech, though: proof of the pudding on that would be numerous companies actually putting it into successful production, and thus far - after over a decade's worth of strenuous hype - nobody has done so.
Sure, a number of big manufacturers have paid to look into it - but what they will have paid will be trivial, in terms of their overall R&D budgets. The fact that they are not climbing over each other to implement it tells you that, having looked at it they've decided that it doesn't offer any significant advantage to them.
Equus said:
skwdenyer said:
....Sure you can copy it, but then you have to work these things out from scratch.
But without protection of the IP (indeed, unfortunately, even with it, where the Chinese are concerned), all that would happen is that companies will pay as little as they can for the information they need to get it going, then walk away and produce it with far eastern labour.And if it did ever take off, then the know-how required will spread very quickly.
I simply don't share your view that there is an addressable market for the tech, though: proof of the pudding on that would be numerous companies actually putting it into successful production, and thus far - after over a decade's worth of strenuous hype - nobody has done so.
Sure, a number of big manufacturers have paid to look into it - but what they will have paid will be trivial, in terms of their overall R&D budgets. The fact that they are not climbing over each other to implement it tells you that, having looked at it they've decided that it doesn't offer any significant advantage to them.
skwdenyer said:
My question was only whether there was an addressable market for the tech. I’m glad if there is.
Re copying it, fine. GM is running a consulting business. Even if people copy the tech, the calculation would I suspect be that enough will want to come to the originator (or indeed just avoid the IP headache) to keep GM going. He’s quite old already - how many projects are needed here?I understand how he makes money from it. What I’m interested to see is what the market turns out to be. Maybe not where we think it will be - military vehicles for instance.
skwdenyer said:
The part of my post you didn’t quote said...
No, I didn't quote it, to keep the length of the post down, but I responded to it:If there was an addressable market, someone would have addressed it, by now...
skwdenyer said:
Re copying it, fine. GM is running a consulting business...
That's kind of my point. Consultancy is about constantly producing new ideas, and new solutions.You can't go on forever flogging (both literally and metaphorically) the same dead horse.
For sure, iStream served a purpose in generating early publicity and identity for GMD. But they now need to move on before it becomes a millstone around their neck - a non-solution that everybody associates as being the companies only trick.
Perhaps if we're being realistic, though, it doesn't matter. Murray is in his 70's now, so only has a few years left to him. If he dropped down dead tomorrow of a heart attack or stroke - which without wishing any ill-will upon him is perfectly possible - then GMD will be left with a portfolio that is almost entirely dependent on a production technique that has failed to show any real-world, deliverable benefits.
GetCarter said:
Will do. He said it was the heaviest thing he's ever produced... which I thought strange until I picked it up!
Thanks a lot! Should have made a picture of the packaging -- was quite impressive as well... Significant other took delivery of the package and was about to give me a lecture on ordering car parts again... She was quite surprised to learn its a book given weight/size -- and luckily she's somewhat of a bibliophile , so...Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff