RE: Gordon Murray Automotive previews F1 successor
Discussion
Beefmeister said:
Snubs said:
I read somewhere the other day, possibly on PH or it might have been Andrew Frankel on Instagram, that McLaren have said only 7 F1s see regular use. Which for me taints this project. With 100 to be built, so not many more than the F1, and an equally huge price tag, it just seems to run the risk of being 'the greatest analogue supercar ever to sit on static display'. What a waste that would be.
Taking the philosophy and seeing what you could do with it on a series production car at anything between £50,000 and £200,000 would surely increase the chances of the car being used as intended.
It's more than that, though I guess it depends on your definition of 'regular use'.Taking the philosophy and seeing what you could do with it on a series production car at anything between £50,000 and £200,000 would surely increase the chances of the car being used as intended.
They are a victim of their own success really, I know a PHer with one that is driven a lot, but he's getting increasingly nervous about taking his out, despite it getting regular use in all weather. It is a £10+m car now after all.
Robmarriott said:
It’s more likely to be port related than other hardware. I know we had no end of trouble getting modern laptops with USB to communicate with older ECUs, despite trying different cables, they’d be absolutely fine with a proper serial port.
More surprising is that McLaren haven’t just built something from scratch. I guess if they’ve still got the old Compaq ones, it’s not yet an issue and if/when they stop working completely, they’ll just start from scratch with a box of components and a case.
I get that entirely, finding a modern laptop with serial is less and less likely. As you say though, if you can find an old computer (technically doesn't need to be a laptop) with serial you're away. Luckily serial cables can be reasonably long, so even if a desktop PC, can run it like they do the MOT emissions computers.More surprising is that McLaren haven’t just built something from scratch. I guess if they’ve still got the old Compaq ones, it’s not yet an issue and if/when they stop working completely, they’ll just start from scratch with a box of components and a case.
I agree, odd that they've not sorted, but then perhaps it's all just bluster based on past history, and boosting the enigmatic image.... and nothing to do with the reality of what and how they do it. For example they may have enough laptops, and if they suddenly don't they know exactly how to make it work with other laptops/hardware.
It's all conjecture on my part, but I take the idea with a pinch of salt.
WCZ said:
sgtBerbatov said:
Think with the servicing of a McLaren F1 it's quite involved. Sure you have the fluids etc but you also need to speak to the computer. This is the problem as the hardware designed to work with the F1 is now 25 years old (at least) and obsolete. The further issue is that the laptops concerned (Compaq 286-SLT's I think) are rarer than rocking horse poo. They've had to do a lot of work to bridge that gap in order to keep servicing the vehicles, if they didn't the cars would simply die.
Plus I think they're kept with McLaren for over a week or two while they do all this work.
they're not that rare and can be picked up for a couple of hundred quid Plus I think they're kept with McLaren for over a week or two while they do all this work.
edit - if it's the Compaq LTE 5280 specifically not a 286 SLT then yes they are super rare
Edited by WCZ on Wednesday 5th June 13:57
Here's the article I read: https://www.theverge.com/2016/5/3/11576032/mclaren...
sgtBerbatov said:
Yeah it's the 5280 laptop, not the 286. Got confused by the one I own!
Here's the article I read: https://www.theverge.com/2016/5/3/11576032/mclaren...
Odd as it isn't anything particularly specialised as such, its 'just' a Pentium laptop.Here's the article I read: https://www.theverge.com/2016/5/3/11576032/mclaren...
Most special thing about it seems to be 2 x PCMCIA slots, but hardly unique in that and you can get adapters to slot those into a PCI desktop if you really needed a solution.
I'd guess its basically just down to the fact that they developed the setup around them, so probably snap up any available units they can get their hands on as it is known to work and is a lot less hassle than validating everything on another platform when you're dealing with the controller on a £10m+ supercar.
Maybe the software is locked down to only work with their laptops to prevent a burgeoning McLaren F1 independant servicing network from popping up.
Edited by Thorburn on Wednesday 5th June 14:17
Equus said:
Surely the answer there is for a few F1 owners to club together and commission updated ECU's? There's nothing terribly sophisticated for them to manage with the cars electrical systems, so it wouldn't be particularly difficult or expensive?
Surely most F1 owners could afford their very own bespoke solution.BOR said:
The engine in the sketch looks like a 180degree v-12.
Seems to be a motorbike style bore/stroke ratio engine, which is exciting, but might not exactly be what the buyers really want.
But I am disappointed to see another car with twice as much BHP as necessary. A six cylinder with half the power but less weight would have impressed me more.
Another trinket for the rich.
What buyers (in this market place) want is exotic, be that high revving NA or Hybrid. This is why a six cylinder wouldn't cut it. Another nail in the 6cyl coffin is a 300hp six cylinder wouldn't cost much less to develop (possibly more if the basis of this engine is similar to the AM). In an all composite supercar the engine is only a fraction of the development cost. The price point would be similar and open to the same rarefied customer base. Then, who wants to pay £1.7m for a 300hp sports car?Seems to be a motorbike style bore/stroke ratio engine, which is exciting, but might not exactly be what the buyers really want.
But I am disappointed to see another car with twice as much BHP as necessary. A six cylinder with half the power but less weight would have impressed me more.
Another trinket for the rich.
MMeng said:
I will be the unpopular opinion here and say that this car the specs of this hypercar are a disappointment.
Outside of the V12 12000 rpm grabbing title, the car offers nothing spectacular or revolutionary in terms of technology. Even the fan technology (a link to Murray's successful engineering days) is a trick that "normal" supercars have been using for many years.
Murrey himself is a fan of light and moderately powered cars (Lotus Elan) and have discussed many times in the past about designing one. I would guess that this project is exclusively pushed by investors to fill the small niche market of "analogue" hypercars that has been glorified by the original F1 and recently been left blank with the introduction of hybrid hypercars.
What additional tech would you add without detracting from the aim of delivering a pure driving experience? I don't see many options that won't either add weight or dull the interaction.Outside of the V12 12000 rpm grabbing title, the car offers nothing spectacular or revolutionary in terms of technology. Even the fan technology (a link to Murray's successful engineering days) is a trick that "normal" supercars have been using for many years.
Murrey himself is a fan of light and moderately powered cars (Lotus Elan) and have discussed many times in the past about designing one. I would guess that this project is exclusively pushed by investors to fill the small niche market of "analogue" hypercars that has been glorified by the original F1 and recently been left blank with the introduction of hybrid hypercars.
shirt said:
Rather have that make production, I might actually be able to buy one! A110 square so to speak, gotta love that!cookie1600 said:
NicoG said:
What, exactly, dictates SIX THOUSAND POUNDS for an Oil change on an Mac F1?
Because McLaren F1I guess you could get it done at Halfords for £40, or do it yourself jacked up by the side of the road......
I think McL go a long way to maintain the mystique of the F1.
There's a vid on YT made by someone who owned one for a year or two, he didn't seem to do his homework in regards to maintenance costs. He was okay about it, but a little shocked.
For example a tyre change costs a ridiculous amount of money, $25k from memory, but that might be wrong. He started explaining that is used unique tyres (seems reasonable, the rears look very high profile for such high performance tyres) but then so do a lot of these short-run hyper cars and they don't cost $25k for a tyre change.
Seems McL don't trust anyone else to complete it, so if you're in the US like this owner they fly a Mechanic out to complete the change, and a test driver, and rent the nearest race track, well not the nearest, the nearest one of a high enough standard. Fit the tyres, balance them in a really complex way, complete a few fast laps and then, only when they're happy, give it back to you. They're don't last long either if you drive it, or indeed if you don't. They time out (because race car) as do a handful of other things. The annual cost of just owning one and keeping it drivable condition is enough to buy a 458 (I think) more if you actually use the thing.
I'd bet in the 25 years since it first came out, technology and materials have come on such a long way it would be more than possible to replace some of the race spec stuff with more robust stuff and make it a far more usable car, but I get the impression (from this vid) that McL would really rather you didn't and they seem to control the sale of them, even now and you'd lose your shirt in depreciation if you messed with it.
I could be very wrong of course.
Onehp said:
shirt said:
Rather have that make production, I might actually be able to buy one! A110 square so to speak, gotta love that!Whilst I accept many on here are skeptical that this will not happen, on this occasion I'd be far more shocked if it did not, GM would not put this out there if it were not fully costed and backed up by relevant finance, baring huge delays and legislation changes it will be built imo.
Can't wait to see the finished car, probably the last of it's kind and bring on the 12,000 rpm red line, I am sure it's plenty quick enough to 9k but for the odd occasion it may go to 12k will be worth it.
Can't wait to see the finished car, probably the last of it's kind and bring on the 12,000 rpm red line, I am sure it's plenty quick enough to 9k but for the odd occasion it may go to 12k will be worth it.
Nerdherder said:
Onehp said:
shirt said:
Rather have that make production, I might actually be able to buy one! A110 square so to speak, gotta love that!JD said:
They not finished that yet?
At this rate the T-50 might be be ready first!
It's in testing; it's not far off production really - but as you know, building road cars that can lap a track nearly as quickly as an F1 car, doesn't happen overnight. The perceived long drawn out development process is more due to the transparency of the company. You can bet Ferrari have been working on the SF90 for a long time prior to announcing it as a thing, so it might look like it's taking a long time - the truth is Aston's just been quite open about the development curve since the concept was first announced.At this rate the T-50 might be be ready first!
A better question would be how are AMG getting on trying to get their Project One to pass emissions tests with their high-tech F1 engine
Back to the T.50 - I like lightness and noisy engines. And it's a frickin' fan car - brilliant
GetCarter said:
I decided to take a rain cheque. £600k deposit.
(He has lots of deposits already - I asked from who - 'The usual suspects' was his reply).
He's gone for a relatively simple drivetrain, with a six speed manual box. The engine will be easy(!) for cosworth after the vaylkerie development. I spoke to him at FOS years ago, and opined that not putting a brake servo on the F1 was a mistake. He blustered a bit, but noticed In an article of evo years later he was asked if there was anything he would change on the F1 with hindsight. One was to redesign the brake pedal linkage to create a greater leverage, at the expense of pedal travel. About as close as an F1 designer will come to admitting a mistake. (He has lots of deposits already - I asked from who - 'The usual suspects' was his reply).
Interestingly Ferrari did a lot of work on making the f50 pedal mechanism effort usable, the f50 having no brake servo, (neither do the f40 and xj220).
redroadster said:
Still can't see it been better than Aston's Valkyrie,and difference is that's been made ,lots of Murray's recent talk never happens .
It’s the absolute antithesis of the Valkyrie though - manual box, no electric gubbins, three seats, decent luggage space, easy ingress/egress, easy to drive on the road. And just to be clear, they’ve only made one Valkyrie so far. I absolutely love the Valkyrie, it’s a truly special car but this T.50 is a proper car for proper driving on proper roads.
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