RE: Be glad the Supra exists at all | PH Footnote

[Petrolism]

There are those who see we're better off with the marriage of an original entity together with another - where the sum of all parts produces a desirable result. Then there are those who would want purity, or nothing at all and are willingly arguing that the marriage should have been annulled before it happened.

The new Supra's not a bad car by any means. Sometimes it's better to just let new things develop & let others enjoy an alternative that could never be viable in the current financial climate without the collaboration that made its existence possible. Live and let live, rather than be so divided on opinion for the sake of it.

The whole debacle about the new Supra has a sort of Brexit flavour - and this far nothing good has come from the division derived from that.

We're better off with the existence of it than without! LOL

[anonymous-user]

CABC said:

there isn't that much choice for real sports cars,

Its such a shame that,
Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
BMW
Toyota
Corvette
Mazda

can't build the PH dream of a "real sports car".

Don't worry, the new TVR (don't hold your breath) and new Lotus (where's that oxygen tank) will be along in a minute.

[Sebastian Tombs]

Maybe Toyota would sell more if it didn’t look bloody horrible. It’s not rocket science. Hideous cars don’t sell well.

But then compared with Mazda or Honda they have always been a white goods brand run by the accountants. And they are brilliant at it. Just look at the Corolla.

[CABC]

rockin said:

CABC said:

there isn't that much choice for real sports cars,

Its such a shame that,
Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
BMW
Toyota
Corvette
Mazda

can't build the PH dream of a "real sports car".

Don't worry, the new TVR (don't hold your breath) and new Lotus (where's that oxygen tank) will be along in a minute.

i omitted to say 25-55k, as previously mentioned.
even then i personally wouldn't include Ferrari, McClaren et al as i'm one who thinks of sports cars as simple, accessible cars that can be enjoyably threaded down a british b road.
An MX5 or Clio are a joy of simple driving. laugh out loud on a 10/10 thrash. And even then, those two examples have different drivetrain layouts. Different, and there to be savoured for their differences.

i'm all for choice and variety, and a little sad that manufacturers don't let their engineers showcase their talents more on real driver's cars. business realities are that it's very difficult and a segment that's moving to 50k plus. At that level the cars also get a little flabby (or comfortable if you prefer). Porsche make excellent sports cars, it's just a shame their engineers aren't let free to produce an A110 equivalent. Before you sneer, it's a car i would spend cash on. my 86 is not my main sports car, it's a little too soft and heavy for that. that spot in the garage is likely to be an A110, Supra or Cayman next year.

btw, although over 20 yrs old, i'd vote the Elise as the best sports car on the market. Caterham a harder core option.
i hope Toyota get brave and build an MR2.

[Ho Lee Kau]

Nickbrapp said:

... people who actually can enjoy driving for the trill of a good corner, a good gear change and a non turbo rev range are few and far between....

yep.
RIP Paul Walker, the guy who enjoyed driving for the thrill of good corner, a good gear change and a non-turbo rev range...on public road...and wrapped himself around a pole.

[Ho Lee Kau]

Toyota betrayed the iconic Supra name.
What a shame.
For that they get the righteous flame.

[sidesauce]

Kolbenkopp said:

Not listening to accountants can sometimes make a lot of money...

But, in Toyota's case, listening to accountants has made them money and lots of it. So much so, they're in the top three biggest car manufacturers on earth...

[cerb4.5lee]

sidesauce said:

Kolbenkopp said:

Not listening to accountants can sometimes make a lot of money...

But, in Toyota's case, listening to accountants has made them money and lots of it. So much so, they're in the top three biggest car manufacturers on earth...

I think that Toyota should just stick to making boring high volume ordinary cars that have made them so big...rather than tease us with the new Supra/GT86(almost cars) that lull us into a false sense of security thinking that they are like the greats of the past(Celica/Supra/MR2/AE86).

Maybe I do have my rose tints on though!

[Addymk2]

Ho Lee Kau said:

yep.
RIP Paul Walker, the guy who enjoyed driving for the thrill of good corner, a good gear change and a non-turbo rev range...on public road...and wrapped himself around a pole.

He wasn't driving, I also think your points entirely irrelevant.

Unless you're under the impression we should all drive Citroen Cacti

[Chris71]

That article hasn't changed my opinions on the car industry, but I do now really want a nice 1965 Glenlivet to swirl round in front of the fire.

[Thom]

"We build ste cars and consider yourself happy that we are taking your money for eating our ste".

[bozzy.]

Sebastian Tombs said:

Maybe Toyota would sell more if it didn’t look bloody horrible. It’s not rocket science. Hideous cars don’t sell well.

But then compared with Mazda or Honda they have always been a white goods brand run by the accountants. And they are brilliant at it. Just look at the Corolla.

Why, what’s wrong with it?

[havoc]

Article said:

And yet, when was the sports car market as vibrant and as varied as it is today? With the Toyota GR Supra, BMW Z4, Porsche 718 Cayman and Boxster, BMW M2 Competition and Alpine A110...

Erm, the Supra and the Z4 are fundamentally the same car.
The Cayman and Boxster are fundamentally the same car
The M2 is fundamentally a 1-series underneath, so it's a derivative of a hatchback (q.f. 90s)
...and the Alpine.

...so there's actually a choice of 4 cars, only 3 of which are bespoke platforms. And all toting turbo'd I4's or I6's

You did miss off the Elise/Exige though...and the Audi TT, which is another hatchback in a posh frock...

Article said:

...I'm not sure we've ever had it so good.

late-1990s might be a good place to start. In no specific order, all ranging from £20k to 40k at then-prices (so call it £30-60k today)

- Alfa GTV
- Z3 and Z3M
- M3
- 840Ci
- Boxster
- SLK
- Audi TT
- Mk4 Supra
- Mk2 MR2
- R34 Skyline
- S2000
- RX7
- Integra Type R (OK, a hatchback derivative, but if you're claiming the M2 Comp then the DC2 definitely counts!)
- final-gen Celica
- Racing Puma (does this count?)
- Fiat Coupe Turbo (does this count?)
- Elise/Exige S1
- Chimera and Griffith
- MGF / TF


I think we used to have it a lot better - there's 4-pot n/a screamers, 4-pot turbos, wankel engines, I-6 N/A and Turbo, V6 n/a and V8 n/a on that list.

[anonymous-user]

havoc said:

late-1990s might be a good place to start. In no specific order, all ranging from £20k to 40k at then-prices (so call it £30-60k today)

- Alfa GTV
- Z3 and Z3M
- M3
- 840Ci
- Boxster
- SLK
- Audi TT
- Mk4 Supra
- Mk2 MR2
- R34 Skyline
- S2000
- RX7
- Integra Type R (OK, a hatchback derivative, but if you're claiming the M2 Comp then the DC2 definitely counts!)
- final-gen Celica
- Racing Puma (does this count?)
- Fiat Coupe Turbo (does this count?)
- Elise/Exige S1
- Chimera and Griffith
- MGF / TF


I think we used to have it a lot better - there's 4-pot n/a screamers, 4-pot turbos, wankel engines, I-6 N/A and Turbo, V6 n/a and V8 n/a on that list.

Exactly, although the 2.5 Boxster was easily dealt with by a DC2 Most modern cars are just huge weighty blobs with enormous amounts of power for pub bragging rights.

[Olivera]

havoc said:

late-1990s might be a good place to start. In no specific order, all ranging from £20k to 40k at then-prices (so call it £30-60k today)

- Alfa GTV
- Z3 and Z3M
- M3
- 840Ci
- Boxster
- SLK
- Audi TT
- Mk4 Supra
- Mk2 MR2
- R34 Skyline
- S2000
- RX7
- Integra Type R (OK, a hatchback derivative, but if you're claiming the M2 Comp then the DC2 definitely counts!)
- final-gen Celica
- Racing Puma (does this count?)
- Fiat Coupe Turbo (does this count?)
- Elise/Exige S1
- Chimera and Griffith
- MGF / TF

Alpine A610
Nissan 200SX
Nissan 300ZX
Mitsubishi GTO
Renault Sport Spider
MX5 (albeit still available now)
VX220 (albeit a couple of years later)
VW Corrado (original)

Edited by Olivera on Tuesday 11th June 17:39

[cerb4.5lee]

Olivera said:

havoc said:

late-1990s might be a good place to start. In no specific order, all ranging from £20k to 40k at then-prices (so call it £30-60k today)

- Alfa GTV
- Z3 and Z3M
- M3
- 840Ci
- Boxster
- SLK
- Audi TT
- Mk4 Supra
- Mk2 MR2
- R34 Skyline
- S2000
- RX7
- Integra Type R (OK, a hatchback derivative, but if you're claiming the M2 Comp then the DC2 definitely counts!)
- final-gen Celica
- Racing Puma (does this count?)
- Fiat Coupe Turbo (does this count?)
- Elise/Exige S1
- Chimera and Griffith
- MGF / TF

Alpine A610
Nissan 200SX
Nissan 300ZX
Mitsubishi GTO
Renault Sport Spider
MX5 (albeit still available now)
VX220 (albeit a couple of years later)
VW Corrado (original)

Stop it please...reminding us all how great things used to be!

So much variety.

[Kolbenkopp]

sidesauce said:

ut, in Toyota's case, listening to accountants has made them money and lots of it. So much so, they're in the top three biggest car manufacturers on earth...

Sure, but what we don't know is how much better or worse they would have done had they made more sexy products.

Listening to that Toyota engineer saying "this is all that the bankers let us do, be glad you get it" is disheartening. Even in our own little backwater that is this forum here a stark reminder that the wrong people are in charge.

[Mr Tidy]

Ho Lee Kau said:

I agree with this comment.

GT86 was hyped because of manual, rwd and light weight....
I'd rather get a used E86 Z4 Coupe with i6, manual, rwd, pretty light weight and it also goes.
GT86 did not sell well either.

The new Supra - that's not Toyota, that's more than 50% BMW, platform, engine, interior - all BMW.
Well, I rather get the M2 then.

At the same time the tiny Mazda makes a most raced across the world convertible - MX-5. Which also sells, and it is 100% Mazda.
Meanwhile Mazda develops new engine technology as well.

I was in awe by the old Supra, I am absolutely indifferent that the new so called Supra exists.

Funnily enough I won a place (1 of 86) to drive the GT86 up the drive at the Goodwood launch event - but I got given an auto!

So a couple of years later I booked a test drive in a manual one for my birthday! I really liked how it drove, but would have liked a bit more grunt! And as none were more than 2 years old at that time they hadn't dropped much in value, and having taken some pensions early with just a part-time job I couldn't justify the financial commitment.

A few weeks later I went to look at a BMW Z4 Coupe, and bought it! 5 years later I still have one. It isn't perfect - EPAS and run-flats aren't great - but I love the engine!

I wouldn't want the G29 Z4 as it's Roadster only, but I quite like the new Supra - I just hope Toyota do offer a manual gearbox. And that it depreciates quickly until I can afford one.

But I can't help thinking Supra wasn't the right name for the latest collaborative model - previous Supras had rear seats so in the 80s were more like a Capri alternative than any 2 seater.

For me this is the ultimate Supra - shame that boat has sailed.