RE: TVR finally hurdles factory delay

[RetroWheels]

ecs0set said:

CS Garth said:

To all those opposed? Hmmm.....well?!

GnR man!

Shades of Renton in the initial monologue with an Axl showstopper at the end ... Niiiiicce

[Equus]

Wacky Racer said:

John Bloor was/is a multi-millionaire builder.

Absolutely. And as I pointed out, he's no fool. Even he spent ~£80 million on Triumph, before it even started breaking even, though... and that's on motorcycles, which are a lot less complicated than cars.

Edgar/TVR will fail, it's just a matter of whether they actually manage to manufacture a handful of cars first.

Still, if it takes anything like 4 years between tender (by which stage the actual design is, by definition, already complete) and completion of a factory unit, there's something badly wrong. By which I mean even more badly wrong than things clearly are at present.

Regardless of whether they manage to complete the factory, I'd be willing to take bets that the whole operation will have disappeared up its own backside within that time period.

[anonymous-user]

Equus said:

The comment was about how long it would take to sort the building out. Whether the company is a going concern or not has no direct relevance to how long a building takes to build or refurbish. The Triumph factory was effectively completely destroyed. The new factory was a new design, which went through planning from scratch.

You would need to be spectacularly incompetent to take 4 years from tender to completion on a typical modern factory unit.

...So admittedly, it's not impossible, with Edgar at the helm.

But the analogy you made was impossibly tenuous. Triumph had a defined product and an established business, TVR are a startup.

[Equus]

yonex said:

But the analogy you made was impossibly tenuous. Triumph had a defined product and an established business, TVR are a startup.

And a factory building is a factory building. Which part of that are you failing to grasp, or are you just arguing for the sake of argument, as you usually do?

[fridaypassion]

No matter how much we all want it to happen the fact is that TVR will never produce these cars. I said it in the day it was first announced.

[Krikkit]

I don't think they'll need to kit out anything like 200,000 sq.ft of factory space to be able to get going - Ginetta produce dozens of cars a year (at least!) in a factory that's 75,000sq.ft.

They're doing almost exactly what TVR are going to be doing, plus having enough room to store customer cars, build an LMP1 car, build the G58 LMP-style track special, build the Akula, build LMP3 cars etc.

What's a bit of a mystery is why we haven't seen another prototype car out and about in the last 12 months or so since the red one - they must be able to find production for the "iStream" chassis (which is, after all, precision-bent tubing), carbon panels and an interior trimmer/workshop somewhere to work with it.

[Equus]

Krikkit said:

I don't think they'll need to kit out anything like 200,000 sq.ft of factory space to be able to get going - Ginetta produce dozens of cars a year (at least!) in a factory that's 75,000sq.ft.

That indeed is one of the obvious flaws of the strategy.

One of the supposed advantages of iStream is that you can manufacture with less infrastructure than normal. As others have said, the target of 4000 cars per year is pure fantasy - through their halcyon days of Grimaera/Cerbera/Tuscan production, TVR averaged about 780 cars per year, with what was certainly a more exciting model line-up, for its day, than the latest Griffith.

He'd be better off investing in a factory facility of a scale more appropriate to the number of cars he's actually likely to sell. A nice double garage behind wherever he's currently living would be favourite.

[cerb4.5lee]

I love TVR and I really hope that it comes to fruition. I do have my doubts though but fingers crossed for sure.

[williamp]

ChocolateFrog said:

Does anyone know with all the faff around the EU wide tender if they went with the original local company anyway?

Iexpect its part of the agreement: if you want EU funding, you must look to the EU. Knowing them, they also suggetsed the tender process for locations must include other EU countries as well. Its how they like to work.

[Hellbound]

This is actually pretty appalling. Am I right in thinking Welsh tax payers are inadvertently funding a portion of this folly? The proposed site is too large, the project is far too ambitious, and the individual in the Welsh government who fell for the blinkered sales pitch needs sacking.

Let’s say they refurb the factory. How many years can they sustain production before having to re-engineer the car? I don’t see TVR’s offering as any way sustainable.

2000 sales a year for a gopping coupe isn’t going to happen.

I’m guessing they have thousands of preorders for such a seemingly hyped car?

Should have started off in a much smaller site with far more realistic goals. Start small, keep it all bespoke.

In any case if this does go tits up, I hope the Welsh tax payer takes ownership of everything.

[Tatraplan]

I used to work in the Techboard factory. Not surprised to hear of some nasty stuff left behind.

I sincerely hope the TVR board are allowing for some snow tyres on the transporters and are considering a 4WD version of the car.

When it snowed, I had to sleep at work for 3 days!!

[anonymous-user]

Equus said:

And a factory building is a factory building. Which part of that are you failing to grasp, or are you just arguing for the sake of argument, as you usually do?

Can you not cope with a different point of view? The facts are TVR are a startup business. The facts are TVR are a start up business.

Yes, I know I’ve written it twice, but maybe it’ll sink in that way?

Edit. My mistake I’ve just realised who you are, you’re the pessimistic architect guy who depresses every topic related to UK manufacturing. Silly me

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 12th June 13:35

[Monkeylegend]

yonex said:

Can you not cope with a different point of view? The facts are TVR are a startup business. The facts are TVR are a start up business.

Yes, I know I’ve written it twice, but maybe it’ll sink in that way?

I would say the jury is out on that at the moment

I would say it again but..........

[Byker28i]

CupMeister said:

I hope they get it right, I do quite like TVR despite all the old quality issues. Plus being Welsh, Ebbw Vale could do with a boost, not really a lot going on up there since the steel works closed. Trouble is the car industry moves so fast, and this car was meant to be launched in 2017, I just hope its not already out of date by the time they get production cars to market....

The EU pumped a lot of money into the area, new sixth form and training college, new sports center, roads infrastructure, railway station. Then you've “The Works”, the £350m regeneration project funded by the EU redevelopment fund and home to the £33.5m Coleg Gwent, where some of the 29,000 Welsh apprenticeships the European Social Fund pays for help young people learn a trade.

Not sure what you mean from 'it could do with a boost'. It could certainly do with some jobs there.

[Equus]

yonex said:

Can you not cope with a different point of view? The facts are TVR are a startup business. The facts are TVR are a start up business.

Yes, I know I’ve written it twice, but maybe it’ll sink in that way?

I used to have a budgerigar like you as a kid... give him a mirror with a bell on it, and he'd argue with himself.

Can you not cope with the simple fact that where a business is a start-up or not has no bearing whatsoever on how long a building contract takes to implement?

Edited to add:

yonex said:

Edit. My mistake I’ve just realised who you are, you’re the pessimistic architect guy who depresses every topic related to UK manufacturing. Silly me

Yes, I'm the guy who has spent the last four decades actually delivering buildings. Including, I might add, best part of a decade working directly for John Bloor, so I know more than the odd snippet about what was involved in rebuilding the Triumph factory.

Edited by Equus on Wednesday 12th June 13:45

[anonymous-user]

Monkeylegend said:

I would say the jury is out on that at the moment

I would say it again but..........

If it does go south, I’ll be sad. I haven’t put a deposit down but I have on another British manufacturer. I don’t understand the ‘it will fail’ types, usually the same sad individuals who haven’t actually made anything themselves, let alone tried to produce a toy car in the modern world!

Good luck to them I say, and double good luck dealing with the Welsh authorities. I had the misfortune of a large capital piece of equipment financed partly through the Welsh Assembly. Biggest bunch of crooks I’ve dealt with, and that’s including the Italians

[anonymous-user]

Equus said:

I used to have a budgerigar like you as a kid... give him a mirror with a bell on it, and he'd argue with himself.

Can you not cope with the simple fact that where a business is a start-up or not has no bearing whatsoever on how long a building contract takes to implement?

Ever been involved in starting a manufacturing business?

One business is not the same as another. Unless you’re Mary Poppins, buildings, don’t suddenly write their own contracts

Are you Mary Poppins?

[anonymous-user]

Equus said:

Yes, I'm the guy who has spent the last four decades actually delivering buildings. Including, I might add, best part of a decade working directly for John Bloor, so I know more than the odd snippet about what was involved in rebuilding the Triumph factory.

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 12th June 13:45

Ah hence the love in. Got it.

So you haven’t been involved with TVR but know the CEO is an ‘idiot’. But Triumph did it so anyone can.

Righty oh.

[Equus]

yonex said:

One business is not the same as another. Unless you’re Mary Poppins, buildings, don’t suddenly write their own contracts

Which bit of the fact that TVR is already beyond the tender stage, with the contract documentation already complete, are you failing to comprehend?

In case you were too busy trying to argue with everybody to notice, that's what this article is actually about.

[NervousEnergy]

williamp said:

Iexpect its part of the agreement: if you want EU funding, you must look to the EU. Knowing them, they also suggetsed the tender process for locations must include other EU countries as well. Its how they like to work.

We (a sort-of public body) have to go EU wide (global in some cases) over certain expected cost thresholds (which are way lower than in this case), EU money or not, or our auditors get deeply unhappy. There are standard rules whenever you deal with public (or 'public') money. So if they didn't expect it, then they were naive. But it doesn't take that much longer if done competently. Building's not my direct area but those here who do it say "months" not "years" - they started sucking air through their teeth at finding unexpected nasty stuff though.