RE: BBR unveils Super 200/220 power hikes for MX-5

[mhurley]

redroadster said:

Why don't they give performance figures .

The standard 184hp does 0-60 in 6.3
so i recking the 220hp upgrade would make it about 5.8

[fioravanti]

The "old" S200 package (214bhp) cracked it in 5.65. I have one. I had the MK3 S200 too. I chopped that in for an M135i, which I sold after 2 months. I'm back in a MK4 S200, and won't make the same mistake again. If you don't have garage space to store a Caterham, these BBRs are in my opinion a decent alternative, and are unbeatable for the money. The ND S200 is an epic little car, and get even more amazing when you throw Ohlins on them :-).

[300bhp/ton]

DoubleD said:

Have you never broken a speed limit?

Have you spun a car at well over 100mph on a motorway? That rather sounds like more than just speeding and rather irresponsible. Lucky they didn't kill someone.

[Guvernator]

A high revving NA engine that makes 110bhp per litre and 220bhp, quite frankly I'd take this over nearly any of the modern, anodyne 2 litre turbo engines, even if they produce a lot more power.

I think Mazda have to be applauded in this day and age for going down a different path and providing engines and indeed cars like this and BBR for unleashing a bit more fireworks, yet people are still moaning

Full disclosure I've never got the massive love for the MX-5 till now. While I love the ethos, the styling has always been a bit too, dare I say it "hairdresser" for my tastes and the engines couldn't pull skin off custard. The new model has fixed the styling brilliantly and these engines\mods have finally provided the power it deserves.

If I didn't have other financial priorities right now, I'd have one in a heartbeat.

[VanquishRider]

300bhp/ton said:

DoubleD said:

Have you never broken a speed limit?

Have you spun a car at well over 100mph on a motorway? That rather sounds like more than just speeding and rather irresponsible. Lucky they didn't kill someone.

Do you really think this motorway was packed with other cars at peak traffic? If you do, then you are even more warped than I thought you was. Do you think I expected it to under rotate the back axle just from lifting off in a straight line?

[Simon Owen]

Guvernator said:

A high revving NA engine that makes 110bhp per litre and 220bhp, quite frankly I'd take this over nearly any of the modern, anodyne 2 litre turbo engines, even if they produce a lot more power.

I think Mazda have to be applauded in this day and age for going down a different path and providing engines and indeed cars like this and BBR for unleashing a bit more fireworks, yet people are still moaning

Full disclosure I've never got the massive love for the MX-5 till now. While I love the ethos, the styling has always been a bit too, dare I say it "hairdresser" for my tastes and the engines couldn't pull skin off custard. The new model has fixed the styling brilliantly and these engines\mods have finally provided the power it deserves.

If I didn't have other financial priorities right now, I'd have one in a heartbeat.

I would concur with all of the above but just remember the ND platform does (very sadly) have it's limitations, you need to be prepared to live with a chassis that isn't very stiff and an average EPAS system. In isolation and driven at 5/10th's it feels fab, and the friendly balance is sublime and really easy to exploit without needing to be a driving god. The size & lack of weight is also great 'on the road' in the real world.

Press on though and the limitations start to show, step out of say a well set up and lightly modified GT86 for example and the difference in control is quite shocking.

I would like try the ND on Ohlins and there is a company in the US that makes a long stroke kit specifically valved and designed for road use https://www.sakebombgarage.com/fpspec-ohlins-dfv-n...

This will not fix the chassis or EPAS though will it :-(

[gigglebug]

VanquishRider said:

Do you really think this motorway was packed with other cars at peak traffic? If you do, then you are even more warped than I thought you was. Do you think I expected it to under rotate the back axle just from lifting off in a straight line?

Not that I have any particular dog in this fight but why would the road have to be packed with other cars at peak traffic for you to consider it to be dangerous? All you would need is one other vehicle to be involved and I've seen the evidence first hand of where a car has ended up on the other side of a motorway, hurdling the barrier in the process, whilst it was doing significantly less than "well into three figures" so even the fact that your own side of the road might be completely clear isn't a guarantee of safety to others.

[DoubleD]

300bhp/ton said:

DoubleD said:

Have you never broken a speed limit?

Have you spun a car at well over 100mph on a motorway? That rather sounds like more than just speeding and rather irresponsible. Lucky they didn't kill someone.

No, I havent.

So have you ever broken the speed limit?

[Guvernator]

Simon Owen said:

I would concur with all of the above but just remember the ND platform does (very sadly) have it's limitations, you need to be prepared to live with a chassis that isn't very stiff and an average EPAS system. In isolation and driven at 5/10th's it feels fab, and the friendly balance is sublime and really easy to exploit without needing to be a driving god. The size & lack of weight is also great 'on the road' in the real world.

Press on though and the limitations start to show, step out of say a well set up and lightly modified GT86 for example and the difference in control is quite shocking.

I would like try the ND on Ohlins and there is a company in the US that makes a long stroke kit specifically valved and designed for road use https://www.sakebombgarage.com/fpspec-ohlins-dfv-n...

This will not fix the chassis or EPAS though will it :-(

Wow, strange that the MX-5 is often billed as the last word in handling on here then.

The GT86 is another car I love the ethos of and yet the styling and anodyne engine again stop me from fully wanting one. The styling I could probably live with in a pinch but god that engine is disappointing and I'm not just talking about peak power but rather lack of quality of delivery and noise. Maybe they should stick this Sky-active engine in it.

[StottyGTR]

300bhp/ton said:

StottyGTR said:

Ignore him he's talking bks.

That response wound me up and he's not even talking to me...

Why and for what reason?

Oh shut up you fking flump.

[Black S2K]

Simon Owen said:

Guvernator said:

A high revving NA engine that makes 110bhp per litre and 220bhp, quite frankly I'd take this over nearly any of the modern, anodyne 2 litre turbo engines, even if they produce a lot more power.

I think Mazda have to be applauded in this day and age for going down a different path and providing engines and indeed cars like this and BBR for unleashing a bit more fireworks, yet people are still moaning

Full disclosure I've never got the massive love for the MX-5 till now. While I love the ethos, the styling has always been a bit too, dare I say it "hairdresser" for my tastes and the engines couldn't pull skin off custard. The new model has fixed the styling brilliantly and these engines\mods have finally provided the power it deserves.

If I didn't have other financial priorities right now, I'd have one in a heartbeat.

I would concur with all of the above but just remember the ND platform does (very sadly) have it's limitations, you need to be prepared to live with a chassis that isn't very stiff and an average EPAS system. In isolation and driven at 5/10th's it feels fab, and the friendly balance is sublime and really easy to exploit without needing to be a driving god. The size & lack of weight is also great 'on the road' in the real world.

Press on though and the limitations start to show, step out of say a well set up and lightly modified GT86 for example and the difference in control is quite shocking.

I would like try the ND on Ohlins and there is a company in the US that makes a long stroke kit specifically valved and designed for road use https://www.sakebombgarage.com/fpspec-ohlins-dfv-n...

This will not fix the chassis or EPAS though will it :-(

Chassis braces do improve the steering/breakaway feel on S2000s and I suspect they ought to do likewise on the ND.

[VanquishRider]

gigglebug said:

VanquishRider said:

Do you really think this motorway was packed with other cars at peak traffic? If you do, then you are even more warped than I thought you was. Do you think I expected it to under rotate the back axle just from lifting off in a straight line?

Not that I have any particular dog in this fight but why would the road have to be packed with other cars at peak traffic for you to consider it to be dangerous? All you would need is one other vehicle to be involved and I've seen the evidence first hand of where a car has ended up on the other side of a motorway, hurdling the barrier in the process, whilst it was doing significantly less than "well into three figures" so even the fact that your own side of the road might be completely clear isn't a guarantee of safety to others.

I totally agree, the faster you go the greater the risk. You can only mitigate the risk. The risk was low. It went wrong and we all walked away without any injury. The car did not. The Police; we had a long chat, breathalysed, passed and given a lift to the next junction. No charges.

A lesson learned.

[Simon Owen]

Guvernator said:

Wow, strange that the MX-5 is often billed as the last word in handling on here then.

The GT86 is another car I love the ethos of and yet the styling and anodyne engine again stop me from fully wanting one. The styling I could probably live with in a pinch but god that engine is disappointing and I'm not just talking about peak power but rather lack of quality of delivery and noise. Maybe they should stick this Sky-active engine in it.

Its really hard to describe the differences and I've muddied the water because my experiences are based both cars being lightly modified for 'fast road' type use. Put it this way ... jumping out of nailing a beautifully set up Caterham R300 down the Torridon Valley the 86 still felt at the top of its game and in its own way absolutely up there with the 7 in terms of driver focus. The BBR ND by contrast was still huge fun but next to what I think is the most fun you can have on the road (the Caterham) it just felt more compromised.

Note the 86 was running NA but with torque dip removed and a set of Bilstein B16 dampers / geo set up.

Performance benefits of the ND are quite noticeable though, i.e. 214bhp & 1050kg vs 205bhp & 1250kg. Stating the blindingly obvious I suppose but the difference feels quite significant at the wheel.

Edited by Simon Owen on Friday 14th June 14:26

Edited by Simon Owen on Friday 14th June 14:28

[Ho Lee Kau]

Simon Owen said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

If I could still get away with two seats one of these would be spot on for an every day car. As it is, it just about doesn’t feel special enough for a weekend car.

Completely different kettle of badgers but I think I’d rather a lotus or Porsche as an occasional toy.

Having said that, my year of MX5 ownership was absolutely brilliant, no BBR mods but a few suspension tweaks.

The BBR is cheaper, smaller, lighter, more nimble and playful at roads speeds than a Boxter and way more practical than an Elise.

But chassis stiffness and steering feel are far superior in both Boxter & Elise ....... arghhhhh !!!!!!!!!! We love the useability of the BBR, and we use it for all kinds of trips but I'm not going to lie I do sometimes crave better steering precision.

I think MX-5 are brilliant.
I almost bought one a couple of months ago, a 2012 160hp white special edition (it has such a happy face!)...

but in the end I went for E85 Z4 3.0Si manual convertible with M-package (seats, steering wheel, alloys).

Z4 was significantly more expensive (still cheap for the condition and mileage though) but it just feels more special and looks timeless.

I feel MX-5 age visually quite fast, while E85/E86 will remain fresh forever.

If Z4 had the LSD it would be perfect, but I love it even without LSD, 255 rear tire in the summer has loads of traction and Z4 is a hoot to drive in the Alps, it is so small.

[edo111s]

Simon Owen said:

Guvernator said:

Wow, strange that the MX-5 is often billed as the last word in handling on here then.

The GT86 is another car I love the ethos of and yet the styling and anodyne engine again stop me from fully wanting one. The styling I could probably live with in a pinch but god that engine is disappointing and I'm not just talking about peak power but rather lack of quality of delivery and noise. Maybe they should stick this Sky-active engine in it.

Its really hard to describe the differences and I've muddied the water because my experiences are based both cars being lightly modified for 'fast road' type use. Put it this way ... jumping out of nailing a beautifully set up Caterham R300 down the Torridon Valley the 86 still felt at the top of its game and in its own way absolutely up there with the 7 in terms of driver focus. The BBR ND by contrast was still huge fun but next to what I think is the most fun you can have on the road (the Caterham) it just felt more compromised.

Note the 86 was running NA but with torque dip removed and a set of Bilstein B16 dampers / geo set up.

Performance benefits of the ND are quite noticeable though, i.e. 214bhp & 1050kg vs 205bhp & 1250kg. Stating the blindingly obvious I suppose but the difference feels quite significant at the wheel.

Edited by Simon Owen on Friday 14th June 14:26

Edited by Simon Owen on Friday 14th June 14:28

I am lucky to have owned and tracked a GT86 (stock) and NDs 160 (stock) and 184 (lowered).

As a road car, the ND is great. Plus, I am an open-top enthusiast.
The 184 engine is way more satisfying than the 160.
The Mazda lowered suspension improve looks, ride and precision.
The GT86 on the road is good but becomes boring and the power delivery not enjoyable. The driving position however is superb.

on track, it's a different story.
In the GT86 you can switch off all nannies (google for 'pedal dance'), the steering is fantastic compared to the MX5 and once you get confident you can keep on pushing and feeling a driving god. Maybe not the fastest god, but the one who smiles the most.

The ND160 unlowered was rolling too much, the lowered ND184 was good on track, fun, but unable to make me feeling the GT86 track deity ...

Edited by edo111s on Friday 14th June 15:11

[Simon Owen]

edo111s said:

I am lucky to have owned and tracked a GT86 (stock) and NDs 160 (stock) and 184 (lowered).

As a road car, the ND is great. Plus, I am an open-top enthusiast.
The 184 engine is way more satisfying than the 160.
The Mazda lowered suspension improve looks, ride and precision.
The GT86 on the road is good but becomes boring and the power delivery not enjoyable. The driving position however is superb.

on track, it's a different story.
In the GT86 you can switch off all nannies (google for 'pedal dance'), the steering is fantastic compared to the MX5 and once you get confident you can keep on pushing and feeling a driving god. Maybe not the fastest god, but the one who smiles the most.

The ND160 unlowered was rolling too much, the lowered ND184 was good on track, fun, but unable to make me feeling the GT86 track deity ...

Edited by edo111s on Friday 14th June 15:11

Concur with a lot of that, and yeah love open top motoring .... if the ND handled like the 86 I'd be happy as Larry, as it is I still thoroughly enjoy the package BBR offer.

Where I would disagree is that I never find the 86 boring on the road, in fact the complete opposite !!! I know aftermarket is not for everyone and I get that but the platform is so good that in my opinion it warrants tweaking the power delivery to fix one of the 86's foibles. In NA torque dip removed tune it is not that slow and the way the power is delivered is much improved.

[gigglebug]

VanquishRider said:

I totally agree, the faster you go the greater the risk. You can only mitigate the risk. The risk was low. It went wrong and we all walked away without any injury. The car did not. The Police; we had a long chat, breathalysed, passed and given a lift to the next junction. No charges.

A lesson learned.

Fair enough.

Always enjoyed a ride out in an MX-5 when the opportunity has arisen but I've never wanted to pull the trigger on one myself up until now. Probably because a very good second hand early generation car can cost a fair bit these days and I'd still be concerned about rust (rightly or wrongly) and I just don't think I'd spend the sort of money to get a new one on a small two seater, although I do think that they look ace.

Maybe a complete snotter, but mechanically sound car, at shed money would be the way to go for a bit of disposable fun.

[Leejay-B]

My only concern is skyactiv engine and carbon on valves... Is this an issue?

[CABC]

Simon Owen said:

edo111s said:

I am lucky to have owned and tracked a GT86 (stock) and NDs 160 (stock) and 184 (lowered).

As a road car, the ND is great. Plus, I am an open-top enthusiast.
The 184 engine is way more satisfying than the 160.
The Mazda lowered suspension improve looks, ride and precision.
The GT86 on the road is good but becomes boring and the power delivery not enjoyable. The driving position however is superb.

on track, it's a different story.
In the GT86 you can switch off all nannies (google for 'pedal dance'), the steering is fantastic compared to the MX5 and once you get confident you can keep on pushing and feeling a driving god. Maybe not the fastest god, but the one who smiles the most.

The ND160 unlowered was rolling too much, the lowered ND184 was good on track, fun, but unable to make me feeling the GT86 track deity ...

Edited by edo111s on Friday 14th June 15:11

Concur with a lot of that, and yeah love open top motoring .... if the ND handled like the 86 I'd be happy as Larry, as it is I still thoroughly enjoy the package BBR offer.

Where I would disagree is that I never find the 86 boring on the road, in fact the complete opposite !!! I know aftermarket is not for everyone and I get that but the platform is so good that in my opinion it warrants tweaking the power delivery to fix one of the 86's foibles. In NA torque dip removed tune it is not that slow and the way the power is delivered is much improved.

I also have both (NA & NC in case of mx5, but the excessive roll is std on mx5).
I agree with both posts.
However, with the mx5 you add bracing and Meister Rs and you've got a weapon, especially with supercharger
I find the 86 too heavy and rolly on track by comparison, so I'd add coilovrs and SC to that if it was regularly going on track.
Both excellent platforms. Both need upgrades for serious driving, but as they're comparatively cheap that's fine.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Ho Lee Kau said:

Simon Owen said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

If I could still get away with two seats one of these would be spot on for an every day car. As it is, it just about doesn’t feel special enough for a weekend car.

Completely different kettle of badgers but I think I’d rather a lotus or Porsche as an occasional toy.

Having said that, my year of MX5 ownership was absolutely brilliant, no BBR mods but a few suspension tweaks.

The BBR is cheaper, smaller, lighter, more nimble and playful at roads speeds than a Boxter and way more practical than an Elise.

But chassis stiffness and steering feel are far superior in both Boxter & Elise ....... arghhhhh !!!!!!!!!! We love the useability of the BBR, and we use it for all kinds of trips but I'm not going to lie I do sometimes crave better steering precision.

I think MX-5 are brilliant.
I almost bought one a couple of months ago, a 2012 160hp white special edition (it has such a happy face!)...

but in the end I went for E85 Z4 3.0Si manual convertible with M-package (seats, steering wheel, alloys).

Z4 was significantly more expensive (still cheap for the condition and mileage though) but it just feels more special and looks timeless.

I feel MX-5 age visually quite fast, while E85/E86 will remain fresh forever.

If Z4 had the LSD it would be perfect, but I love it even without LSD, 255 rear tire in the summer has loads of traction and Z4 is a hoot to drive in the Alps, it is so small.

I had a Z4M coupe, I seriously consider it one of the best looking cars ever made. From the rear three quarter view it might even be the best IMHO!

My MX5 with about £500 worth of mods however was head and shoulders above it for handling and enjoyment. Again, IMHO.