RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender leaked (sort of)
Discussion
NomduJour said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I can’t see s nice spec one of these being under £30k + vat.
A higher-spec X Class (Navara in drag) is very close to £50k, Amarok the same, you can spend well over £40k on a D-Max - that’s an awful lot of money for something that costs about £2.50 to build. I can’t help but think that’s where the volume sales are.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
NomduJour said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I can’t see s nice spec one of these being under £30k + vat.
A higher-spec X Class (Navara in drag) is very close to £50k, Amarok the same, you can spend well over £40k on a D-Max - that’s an awful lot of money for something that costs about £2.50 to build. I can’t help but think that’s where the volume sales are.
It was nice to see just how many Defenders were still being used as work horses. Numbers have declined, but seeing as LR haven't offered anything for nearly 5 years now, it is no wonder people have been forced to buy elsewhere.
I'd say on average I still saw more Defenders than all of the other pickup brands combined.
Cotswold's and board 110's seemed the most popular. In the Welsh hills/mountains pickup 90's with Ifor Williams tops the most common, followed by basic 90 hard tops. Hardly saw any CSW's.
I do seriously doubt LR will be targeting this market. But I'm still amazed that they don't want any sort of foothold in it.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Indeed you can and I’m sure LR will cater to that market but, what about the traditional workhorse buyer who will spend as I suggested?
I can’t help but think that’s where the volume sales are.
Been debated to death - LR are not in a position to (and definitely don't want to) enter that market.I can’t help but think that’s where the volume sales are.
Pintofbest said:
But based on that feedback all the previous comments about other companies (Toyota etc) now taking JLR sales is untrue, as you are basically stating they aren't buying new cars. Why would anyone target a small portion of the market that changes vehicles every 10+ years?
I haven't stated anything other than my own observation.Are you qualified to say it is a small portion or how are you basing your 10 year claim?
All I've said is I still saw a lot of Defenders, the vast majority being used as work vehicles. And I'm surprised Land Rover want no part of this in any way shape or form.
And here's your third 2020 Land Rover Defender leak... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DA0ko7F7QM
300bhp/ton said:
I haven't stated anything other than my own observation.
Are you qualified to say it is a small portion or how are you basing your 10 year claim?
All I've said is I still saw a lot of Defenders, the vast majority being used as work vehicles. And I'm surprised Land Rover want no part of this in any way shape or form.
Even if there are a lot of Defenders in Wales and the Cotswolds, that doesn't mean it's a viable (or worthwhile) market for a company of JLR's size and strategy. If we're trading anecdotes, in the rural areas I've lived in the Defender seems virtually extinct as a working vehicle outside 110s/130s converted to specialist applications. When I grew up in the Hampshire Downs the favoured vehicle for farmers was combo of a Daihatsu Fourtrak for 4x4/towing, and a barely-road-legal diesel Peugeot estate of some sort for 'hack work'. My more recent years spent in the West Country and my current location in the Fens suggest that it's Japanese double-cab pick-ups all the way, usually teamed with a UTV, a modern compact tractor or an ancient MF35 for doing anything heavy-duty or requiring real mud-plugging abilities. Are you qualified to say it is a small portion or how are you basing your 10 year claim?
All I've said is I still saw a lot of Defenders, the vast majority being used as work vehicles. And I'm surprised Land Rover want no part of this in any way shape or form.
So the Defender doesn't even have a decent grip on the British agricultural market - supposedly its core customer base. The utility firms don't seem to be mourning its loss (if they ever bought it freely rather than as a hangover from the era of nationalisation and government-mandated purchasing policy) and even the British Army (let alone other military buyers) aren't interested in buying vehicles of that ilk any more.
Land Rover aren't going to plough the development costs of an all-new vehicle into something with a market base of sub-20,000 per year in a rainy archipelago off the European coast. They aren't going to build a Hilux/L200 clone when they don't have the production capacity or sales network to properly compete in that market on a global basis (which is what you have to do if you're going for the 'low price, high sales' model) and take the very real risk of their offering flopping and becoming a black hole for £billions. Not when they can just adapt their existing platform architecture and drivetrain technology and produce a vehicle that hundreds of thousands of people in their existing market base will pay £50-odd,000 for and still produce what has every chance of being a decent and capable utility 4x4 for the First World.
Why would JLR, with its current business model and products, particularly want to spend money to make vehicles for farmers in Wales or the Cotswolds? Especially when, pound-for-pound, they could make much more profit for much less risk just doing what they're evidently doing already?
You might as well ask why Rolls-Royce doesn't get into the booming supermini segment because loads of people drive Fiestas but you hardly ever see a Phantom on the roads.
Edited by 2xChevrons on Wednesday 26th June 14:21
300bhp/ton said:
I'd say on average I still saw more Defenders than all of the other pickup brands combined.
Unfortunately, the rose-tinted specs were probably filtering out the other brands. South Wales/Cotswolds is my stomping ground and what I'm seeing on the roads does not correlate with your observations....and as for everything else, it has been done to death so let's just wait and see what LR announce.
M
camel_landy said:
Unfortunately, the rose-tinted specs were probably filtering out the other brands. South Wales/Cotswolds is my stomping ground and what I'm seeing on the roads does not correlate with your observations.
...and as for everything else, it has been done to death so let's just wait and see what LR announce.
M
Rose tinted nothing I'm afraid. I like lots of different vehicles....and as for everything else, it has been done to death so let's just wait and see what LR announce.
M
unsprung said:
There is some truth in that sarcasm.
That is quite interesting, although all it really seems to say is, that most modern cars are quite reliable and that there really isn't a huge difference from top to bottom. And that many car makers are actually very close.As an example using those stats:
Land Rover = 123
Which means out of 100 vehicles, on average they all had some kind of issue (we don't know what kind). And out of those 100 vehicles, 23 had a 2nd issue. Or it could be some had no issues and some had multiple, but we can't tell that from the data.
vs
Volkswagen or Subaru = 113
Out of 100 cars, both of these brands on average also had an issue with ever single one and 13 of them had a 2nd issue too.
300bhp/ton said:
That is quite interesting, although all it really seems to say is, that most modern cars are quite reliable and that there really isn't a huge difference from top to bottom. And that many car makers are actually very close.
As an example using those stats:
Land Rover = 123
Which means out of 100 vehicles, on average they all had some kind of issue (we don't know what kind). And out of those 100 vehicles, 23 had a 2nd issue. Or it could be some had no issues and some had multiple, but we can't tell that from the data.
vs
Volkswagen or Subaru = 113
Out of 100 cars, both of these brands on average also had an issue with ever single one and 13 of them had a 2nd issue too.
The JD Power stats do regularly seem to get questioned on here as to the validity of their findings/results. As an example using those stats:
Land Rover = 123
Which means out of 100 vehicles, on average they all had some kind of issue (we don't know what kind). And out of those 100 vehicles, 23 had a 2nd issue. Or it could be some had no issues and some had multiple, but we can't tell that from the data.
vs
Volkswagen or Subaru = 113
Out of 100 cars, both of these brands on average also had an issue with ever single one and 13 of them had a 2nd issue too.
I suppose we have to assume that by and large, every brand of car will have buyers who are imbeciles/pedants/fastidious OCD types/angry with their purchase types along side the really happy/easily pleased/don't care about minor things going wrong type
Shakermaker said:
The JD Power stats do regularly seem to get questioned on here as to the validity of their findings/results.
I suppose we have to assume that by and large, every brand of car will have buyers who are imbeciles/pedants/fastidious OCD types/angry with their purchase types along side the really happy/easily pleased/don't care about minor things going wrong type
We'll have to agree to disagree on those points. I'll believe JD Power outcomes more often than the random anecdotes posted by individuals on PH. JD Power brings decades of methodology and data.I suppose we have to assume that by and large, every brand of car will have buyers who are imbeciles/pedants/fastidious OCD types/angry with their purchase types along side the really happy/easily pleased/don't care about minor things going wrong type
300bhp/ton said:
That is quite interesting, although all it really seems to say is, that most modern cars are quite reliable and that there really isn't a huge difference from top to bottom. And that many car makers are actually very close.
As an example using those stats:
Land Rover = 123
Which means out of 100 vehicles, on average they all had some kind of issue (we don't know what kind). And out of those 100 vehicles, 23 had a 2nd issue. Or it could be some had no issues and some had multiple, but we can't tell that from the data.
vs
Volkswagen or Subaru = 113
Out of 100 cars, both of these brands on average also had an issue with ever single one and 13 of them had a 2nd issue too.
All valid points. The rankings from JD Power began in the 1970s, and, lol, it's kind of amusing to imagine the exceedingly fundamental nature of car quality problems at the time; eg: ill-fitted boot lid, inoperable electrics, visible rust new on the dealership forecourt, etc. As an example using those stats:
Land Rover = 123
Which means out of 100 vehicles, on average they all had some kind of issue (we don't know what kind). And out of those 100 vehicles, 23 had a 2nd issue. Or it could be some had no issues and some had multiple, but we can't tell that from the data.
vs
Volkswagen or Subaru = 113
Out of 100 cars, both of these brands on average also had an issue with ever single one and 13 of them had a 2nd issue too.
The chart above is from the Initial Quality Study, which concerns only the first 90 days after purchase. As we all know, the people at JD Power also have a look at dependability over the longer term -- such as the three-year data displayed in the chart below. Although there are some surprises -- ie: a brand that ranked well on initial quality may have slipped significantly (or vice versa) three years later -- there is no surprise regarding the brand that is the subject of this thread.
Edited by unsprung on Wednesday 26th June 23:07
300bhp/ton said:
camel_landy said:
Unfortunately, the rose-tinted specs were probably filtering out the other brands. South Wales/Cotswolds is my stomping ground and what I'm seeing on the roads does not correlate with your observations.
...and as for everything else, it has been done to death so let's just wait and see what LR announce.
M
Rose tinted nothing I'm afraid. I like lots of different vehicles....and as for everything else, it has been done to death so let's just wait and see what LR announce.
M
M
unsprung said:
We'll have to agree to disagree on those points. I'll believe JD Power outcomes more often than the random anecdotes posted by individuals on PH. JD Power brings decades of methodology and data.
Actually the post which then came later clarified this a bit more, as I was unware they had different times at which they did it, assumed everything was after 3 years but obviously I was wrong. camel_landy said:
300bhp/ton said:
camel_landy said:
Unfortunately, the rose-tinted specs were probably filtering out the other brands. South Wales/Cotswolds is my stomping ground and what I'm seeing on the roads does not correlate with your observations.
...and as for everything else, it has been done to death so let's just wait and see what LR announce.
M
Rose tinted nothing I'm afraid. I like lots of different vehicles....and as for everything else, it has been done to death so let's just wait and see what LR announce.
M
M
Travelled from near Stroud, down to Bath, via Bristol. I saw lots of Defenders.
Most of them were shiny, with a family in them and they were being used as family cars. They weren't being off-roaded and they didn't look like they spent lots of time up the beam axles in mud. I admit, some of them might have been, but I suspect the furthest most of them got off-road was the pony club car-park.
It's almost as though the people driving them bought them as a lifestyle accessory and will buy the new one for the same purpose.
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