RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender leaked (sort of)
Discussion
RicksAlfas said:
Looks like the base model has a choice of three engines, but the biggest engine (P400) is only in the very expensive top Model X.
.
I've managed too spec the p400 is a 110S in Aus. No price indication though over here yet....
https://build.landrover/135CB9EB
DonkeyApple said:
My first thought was that it’s function was to put enormous strength into the roof to allow heavy load carrying. Plus, maybe being monocoque rather than body on frame, it adds rigidity when the terrain could cause flex? And colour coded to the body as more customers will pay to have it in black as opposed to the other way round.
Recently ex-JLR L663 Design Engineer here.There was a proposed plan to serve these markets, a plan that the Product Development and Vehicle Engineering departments lobbied for for years against the Styling department (hence the huge delays since the 2013 kick off of the defender redesign; imagine Marvel's Civil War between data driven engineers and the stylists and marketing arms, both had the backing of the accountants, but folks like Gerry McGovern just shout louder, so the stylists won).
WANT AN EXAMPLE OF NEW DEFENDER'S STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE?
Look at the plastic plate that covers the rear side glass of the 90wb....
Yeah that green slab that obscures the rear occupant's view to the point of inducing travel sickness? Yeah that's there because Gerry wants the side profile to show "familial ties to the side of 110", nothing else. No actual purpose. It's just a piece of plastic trim stuck to the inside and outside of the rear side glass.
You can have it removed and just have see through glass instead, but that's a cost option with the "vision pack".... seriously.
Oh, and the treadplate on the bonnet, yeah that's plastic and cannot be stood on...
This is part of the reason I'm an ex-JLR employee; the writing is on the wall.
Pintofbest said:
It was said on the launch that only 110 available to order for now, 90 and 130 to follow.
When my dad put his deposit down a couple of months or so ago, they cheerfully told him that the 110 and 90 would be available to order this month, as well as the commercial 'van' version of the 90 (The one he was particularly wanting to order)Never trust a car salesmen....
Pintofbest said:
Vanlife.global said:
Let me explain,
Because of the size new Defender needs to be to meet the proportions it could only be built on the D7u/hybrid MLA architecture.
This means that under the skin it's exactly the same as the old/new Range Rover, Range Rover Sport, and Discovery.
This means that for every New Defender you build on the production line at Solihull or Nitra you AREN'T building an £80k<£100 Rangie.
So even at the inflated £40<£50 for a 90/110 you are losing money because of what you're NOT building.
For new Defender big volumes would be BAD for JLR; give it two years and keep an eye on JLRs profitability; trust me.
Sorry, I'm ex JLR and that is complete nonsense.Because of the size new Defender needs to be to meet the proportions it could only be built on the D7u/hybrid MLA architecture.
This means that under the skin it's exactly the same as the old/new Range Rover, Range Rover Sport, and Discovery.
This means that for every New Defender you build on the production line at Solihull or Nitra you AREN'T building an £80k<£100 Rangie.
So even at the inflated £40<£50 for a 90/110 you are losing money because of what you're NOT building.
For new Defender big volumes would be BAD for JLR; give it two years and keep an eye on JLRs profitability; trust me.
Apart from it is not going to be built in Solihull, how does your argument stack up against Velar and F-Pace? JLR make money by selling cars not just making them, and it's sales that are the issue now although RR and RRS are still very strong considering how old they are other models are very low they aren't backed up in the production schedule. The best comparison is 17 to 19 as well as because as 18 was poor 19 shows a positive % increase.
Defender is slated to sell 45k per year I think, it will not kill or reinvigorate the company - the current cost base, warranty/buy back bills, and Jaguar are bigger things to fix. Adding 45 or even 50k of sales to a 600k car business will not suddenly right the ship.
the new g-wagen is I think a rubbish example - tried to google some worldwide sales without huge success but looks like 6k in europe and 4k in usa in 2018.
Jimmy and Jeep - wouldn't want to have an accident in either of those
Vanlife.global said:
DonkeyApple said:
My first thought was that it’s function was to put enormous strength into the roof to allow heavy load carrying. Plus, maybe being monocoque rather than body on frame, it adds rigidity when the terrain could cause flex? And colour coded to the body as more customers will pay to have it in black as opposed to the other way round.
Recently ex-JLR L663 Design Engineer here.There was a proposed plan to serve these markets, a plan that the Product Development and Vehicle Engineering departments lobbied for for years against the Styling department (hence the huge delays since the 2013 kick off of the defender redesign; imagine Marvel's Civil War between data driven engineers and the stylists and marketing arms, both had the backing of the accountants, but folks like Gerry McGovern just shout louder, so the stylists won).
WANT AN EXAMPLE OF NEW DEFENDER'S STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE?
Look at the plastic plate that covers the rear side glass of the 90wb....
Yeah that green slab that obscures the rear occupant's view to the point of inducing travel sickness? Yeah that's there because Gerry wants the side profile to show "familial ties to the side of 110", nothing else. No actual purpose. It's just a piece of plastic trim stuck to the inside and outside of the rear side glass.
You can have it removed and just have see through glass instead, but that's a cost option with the "vision pack".... seriously.
Oh, and the treadplate on the bonnet, yeah that's plastic and cannot be stood on...
This is part of the reason I'm an ex-JLR employee; the writing is on the wall.
When engineering leads a product you get Saab, well-engineered in areas that nobody who buys the product gives two hoots about. Then dead.
Have to say while I think it could have been better I do like it apart from the silly side panels.
I do think it’s time for McGovern to go though, my suspicion is that he took a strong underlying design by one of his team and added his signature overall blandness with cack handed design gimmicks.
I do think it’s time for McGovern to go though, my suspicion is that he took a strong underlying design by one of his team and added his signature overall blandness with cack handed design gimmicks.
swisstoni said:
Interesting that the strange window panel things are at the insistence of some lead designer.
That would explain the half-arsed ‘uses’ that have been found for them. Some sort of ladder point, storage compartment, etc.
For me, i'd rather have a car designed by one person, than one designed "by committee" even if the end result is a more marmite car!That would explain the half-arsed ‘uses’ that have been found for them. Some sort of ladder point, storage compartment, etc.
(and i rather like the side slabs tbh, especially when you see them in the flesh so to speak)
The Vambo said:
hyphen said:
One looks supercool, the other looks a pleasant, but generic modern Land Rover product
One looks like something you might actually buy, the other looks like Geoff...
The Vambo said:
Lets be honest, engineers work best with very very specific constraints.
When engineering leads a product you get Saab, well-engineered in areas that nobody who buys the product gives two hoots about. Then dead.
Indeed. Car companies don't want to produce the next Audi A2, the next Lexus LS or the next VW Phaeton. When engineering leads a product you get Saab, well-engineered in areas that nobody who buys the product gives two hoots about. Then dead.
They want to make the next Qashqai.
Car companies aren't in the business of building exquisitely engineered cars. They're in the business of selling cars that people buy, at a high margin. This naturally leads to the conclusion that the engineering parameters of the car are set by Marketing and Finance.
Even those cars that are sold at low or no profit ('Halo' cars) exist only to sell more of the cars that do make them a profit.
hyphen said:
One looks supercool, the other looks a pleasant, but generic modern Land Rover product
But that is just perspective, in 50 years time the current Defender might be seen as supercool. Nobody knew when the first Land Rover was released it would be a success, and I'm sure some people compared it poorly with the Willies Jeep which had performed fantastically in WW2 and had a great reputation for relaibilty and 'go anywhere' ability. The old Defender was not going to last forever - by the end it wasn't profitable anyway - and I think the LR designers and engineers have produced a great looking product which will hopefully perform as well off road as the old one. Even among its core market - farmers - the old Defender was considered uncomfortable with poor on road handling, and most farmers these days use Jap pick ups instead. There is no argument it had to change to reflect the modern world.
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